Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[HardcoreZorn]

@Skinsinparadise just to be clear, you like but don't love Alex Smith?

[redskinss]

So all things being equal  if he can avoid ramming his head into a wall after a touchdown or rushing up to the line late in the half and taking a knee then we probably got an upgrade. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

@Skinsinparadise just to be clear, you like but don't love Alex Smith?

 

In a manly kind of way, talking pure football.   Love his personality. Like the player. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

37 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

 

It feels like "Alex Smith love" means not being negative about Smith, not specifically calling you out just the feel I get from many posters on this topic. I dont think I have seen anyone touting him as the next coming, or that hes going to tear up the league. Seems like most people see him as comparable to Cousins but protects the ball much better, not a downgrade and cheaper. Plus Kirk didnt want to be here, so good riddance.

IMO saying it’s a clear upgrade over Kirk and the swooning over deep balls in practice among other things I would call “Alex Smith love”.  

 

I think your your last sentence kind of plays into exactly what’s Im talking about.  The Kirk hate has bred the Alex Smith love.

 

And that’s fine really, I just think it’s errily similar to what we’ve known of the QB position for what feels like forever.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Here's an article that includes some gushing from a Vikings player about Kirk being a leader and how its contagious and effecting their locker room.  I've seen two Vikings players say the same on NFL Network.  Kirk and Diggs are throwing love to each other back and forth on twitter.  So the romance is intense with Kirk in Minny, too.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2784360-84-million-man-cant-be-satisfied-kirk-cousins-is-keeping-his-underdog-mindset

 

I am only mentioning this because I don't think it helps Kirk just like all the over the top Alex stuff doesn't help Alex.  I get some of it is just off season hype where every present we unwrap is a shiny new bike drill.  And if you can't have fun with that now -- when can you?

 

But I admit it should be a wild fun ride to see how it plays out.  I can't think of an apples to apples scenario like this from the past.  Maybe the Brees-Rivers drill with the Saints and SD?   Alex-Kirk.  Guice-Barkley.  Those for me are my most fascinating season things as to specific player comparisons.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

IMO saying it’s a clear upgrade over Kirk and the swooning over deep balls in practice among other things I would call “Alex Smith love”.  

 

I think your your last sentence kind of plays into exactly what’s Im talking about.  The Kirk hate has bred the Alex Smith love.

 

And that’s fine really, I just think it’s errily similar to what we’ve known of the QB position for what feels like forever.

 

 

 

That's a good point....

 

McNabb in 2010 was going to bring in a winning mentality and was better than Campbell

<Grossman/Beck in 2011 might be the exception - hahaha>

RGIII in 2012 was finally a young franchise QB who was nearly too good to be true!

Cousins in 2015 was a humble, traditional, pro-style QB and could help us recover

Now Smith in 2018 is REALLY the mature QB we need. 

[bedlamVR]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

IMO saying it’s a clear upgrade over Kirk and the swooning over deep balls in practice among other things I would call “Alex Smith love”.  

 

I think your your last sentence kind of plays into exactly what’s Im talking about.  The Kirk hate has bred the Alex Smith love.

 

And that’s fine really, I just think it’s errily similar to what we’ve known of the QB position for what feels like forever.

 

 

 

 

Here is the point though - Alex smith is the Redskins starting QB for 2018/19 season

 

- I disagree it is Kirk hate that is being used to pump Smith up. It is simply people are enthusiastic about Smith (why is that not allowed)  - and Smith is doing things differently in mini camp - he is pushing the envelope to find out what he can do in this system - different attitude to Kirk who practiced as he played... what difference that makes who knows. but one thing I have to say Alex is not some random bum... 

 

What Alex has to do is play this system - Jays systems are very QB friendly as I have said but the QB has to be intelligent and methodical - which is why it suited Kirk but didn't really work for a guy like RGIII... It allows the QB to succeed but still play within themselves . What will be the X factor will be the contributions from the defense and what the RBs can bring ... I am really hopeful for Guice... 

 

I am a very team guy - I will support (in most cases) whoever the Redskins put on the field - Last year I was 100% behind Kirk but I did see him as limited and I really cannot see him stepping up much beyond what he is. 

 

I come back to my first point. Alex Smith is most likely going to be our starting QB - the Redskins starting QB - We are a couple of weeks away from the start of camp - and yet some still cannot get behind Smith ... or indeed any of the other players on the team ( i am so sick of hearing people saying Kirk was given trash to work with - Brandon Sherif (trash), Trent Williams (trash) Jordan Reed (Trash) Jamerson Crowder (Trash) Chiss Tompson (Trash), Morgan Mosses (TRASH) - you get my point ... 

 

 

[Sandy Monk]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

IMO saying it’s a clear upgrade over Kirk and the swooning over deep balls in practice among other things I would call “Alex Smith love”.  

 

I think your your last sentence kind of plays into exactly what’s Im talking about.  The Kirk hate has bred the Alex Smith love.

 

And that’s fine really, I just think it’s errily similar to what we’ve known of the QB position for what feels like forever.

 

 

That goes both ways though. Some of the Smith hate is bred from people unable to let go of their Kirk love. 

 

Also, good post, bedlamVR

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@bedlamVR There is absolutely a correlation between the newfound love for Alex Smith and those that never really liked Kirk.  Not everyone but it’s absolutely there, that’s not even debatable.  Part of it is also just fans desperately wanting to believe, and that’s okay -it’s July, I get it.  I’m not sure where you come up with being enthusiastic about Smith not being allowed.  I don’t see anyone in here hating on Smith.  What I do see is a stark contrast from the night the trade was announced to today.  Big time.  It was practically unanimous that the Skins got bent over by Reid once again and it only got worse when the news that Fuller was part of the deal broke.  Very few Skins fans ever credited Alex Smith as being anything other than a game manager that checks down but can skate with his legs when need be.  Now that he’s a Redskin, that perspective has changed by many in this fanbase and it’s not entirely based on facts, it’s partly just wanting to be excited.  Again, that’s fine.  But folks disagreeing does not equate to hating on Smith.

 

As for your comment about Kirk having  trash to work with:

 

Jordan Reed - Clearly not trash.  But he’d first have to be healthy to contribute. Really hasn’t been for two seasons.

 

Scherff/Trent/Moses - all good players when healthy.  While they are warriors, they were clearly unable to be themselves for the majority of last season.

 

Crowder - Took a huge step back last season.  So many costly errors.  Hopefully 2017 is not a glimpse of what’s to come and his injury played a role in his down season.

 

CT - Again, awesome player and great guy to root for.  Played lights out....for half the season until he broke his leg.

 

The guys who played in place of some of these guys were not world beaters, and even some of them went down, leaving nothing but scraps to replace them.  So yeah - there is absolute truth to Kirk working with “trash” last season. Not to mention we’ve been awful on defense and haven’t been able to run the ball for years.  Not sure how that’s even debatable.  Hopefully that changes with the new additions and some health.

 

51 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

That goes both ways though. Some of the Smith hate is bred from people unable to let go of their Kirk love. 

 

Where is this Smith hate you speak of? If you call folks not fawning over him as if he automatically makes this team a contender or having concerns about how his age comes into play or what it took to get him here ‘hate’ then I guess you’re right.  But I’m not seeing anyone hate on him.

[DJHJR86]

In addition to the Kirk/Alex thing and how it'll play out, I'm also curious as to how KC is going to do with Mahomes, and what his stat line is going to look like at the end of the year.  

 

14 hours ago, bedlamVR said:

I come back to my first point. Alex Smith is most likely going to be our starting QB - the Redskins starting QB - We are a couple of weeks away from the start of camp - and yet some still cannot get behind Smith ... or indeed any of the other players on the team

 

It's kind of odd that Kirk was never afforded the same luxury by a decent portion of our fan base.  And guess what?  That's okay.  I don't want to have blind loyalty to a player just because they are on my favorite team.  If they signed Brock Osweiler, should everyone be okay with that and get excited?  

No one is "not behind" Alex Smith.  Everyone wants to win.  The hang up is whether or not you think Smith is going to make that much of a difference (negative or positive).

[bedlamVR]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

In addition to the Kirk/Alex thing and how it'll play out, I'm also curious as to how KC is going to do with Mahomes, and what his stat line is going to look like at the end of the year.  

 

 

It's kind of odd that Kirk was never afforded the same luxury by a decent portion of our fan base.  And guess what?  That's okay.  I don't want to have blind loyalty to a player just because they are on my favorite team.  If they signed Brock Osweiler, should everyone be okay with that and get excited?  

No one is "not behind" Alex Smith.  Everyone wants to win.  The hang up is whether or not you think Smith is going to make that much of a difference (negative or positive).

 

The fact some people would rather be right than support the players and the team that is assembled is kind of not my issue. I tend to focus on the positive and i support Redskins players - either to the point they are no longer skins players OR they are indefensible. I remember Mark Brunell in that 2006 season when he could barely hit the ground if he was stood on it his accuracy had deteriorated so much - I supported him because he was the starter but I could see he was one of the things (many things) holding the team back. 

 

I was pro Kirk when he was on the team - I hated the way he handled the contract negociations - but thats in the past ... move on. 

 

So i am not suggesting blind loyalty. 

 

Just some 

 

I have seen Alex compared to Mark Brunell, McNabb and now Brock Osweller ? Seriously ? Can we not get a little bit excited to see a QB who has been effective and efficient (a smart guy) who was the best thrower of the ball downfield last year ? 

 

Mahome is going to be interesting - The Chiefs needed to get younger - to retool and they kind of are in that process. Their defense is getting a make over and the core of the offense is getting a makeover.  They are in good hands with Reid but you can see the team is going through an on the fly rebuild (its what consistency lets you do) .... 

 

 

[DJHJR86]

7 minutes ago, bedlamVR said:

I have seen Alex compared to Mark Brunell, McNabb and now Brock Osweller ? Seriously ? Can we not get a little bit excited to see a QB who has been effective and efficient (a smart guy) who was the best thrower of the ball downfield last year ? 

 

No one compared him to Osweiler.  I'm saying that the same level of positivity and excitement wouldn't be the same had we signed a QB like Osweiler.  Meaning we shouldn't always be on board 100% behind players who suck, just because they are on the roster.  

 

We absolutely can be excited about the team.  We usually are every year.  I don't think over hyping a player based off of an outlier season is the best way to go about that, but to each their own.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

27 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I don't think over hyping a player based off of an outlier season is the best way to go about that, but to each their own.  

 

I do think that you're latching onto a small minority of the opinions. I haven't seen this over-abundance of expectations around Smith. I've seen a lot of the following opinions:

 

- Smith should be able to put up comparable passing numbers (usually a commentary on Gruden's system)

- Smith should be able to reduce the turnovers and short fields for the defense

- Smith should be able to help improve the running game due to his athleticism 

- Smith may have more success getting the ball down the field more effectively

 

I don't see anything crazy in confidently expecting the first three and don't see anything crazy in believing the last thing is a distinct possibility. 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There is absolutely a correlation between the newfound love for Alex Smith and those that never really liked Kirk.  Not everyone but it’s absolutely there, that’s not even debatable.  

 

I wonder if 980 gets their topics from here  -- 8-9 today with JP Finlay on with Sheehan talked about it.   Both agreed its on point -- and Finlay is no Kirk guy.  Finlay even joked about all this over the top Alex is clutch stuff saying that's not what the KC reporters say about him, cited even one KC reporter had to explain that to a Redskins fan on twitter who was pumping up Alex's clutch gene -- with the KC guy saying back to him when you want a touchdown in big moments, Alex will get you a field goal.

 

16 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

If you call folks not fawning over him as if he automatically makes this team a contender or having concerns about how his age comes into play or what it took to get him here ‘hate’ then I guess you’re right.  But I’m not seeing anyone hate on him.

 

Also a topic on 980, Sheehan and Finlay joked about the over the top fawning.   

 

But to your point, yeah I don't see anyone hating on Alex.  Debate really is good or great?  Downgrade or upgrade?  But its positive the debate is how positive.  I don't think anyone here is saying the dude is a bum.  I do agree with this -- Jay - is a very good play caller.  Alex -- good QB.  That should = good chemistry.  But again Alex is coming from a good system, too.    My favorite thing about Alex is his legs and that he has wheels.  That's part of the reason why I am also concerned about whether he loses that some as he gets older -- and that's not because I hate the dude   but its because its hard for me to recall a running QB in their late 30s.  For that reason my gut is we are going to get a good 2 seasons out of Alex and then I wonder.  And I hope we have a good enough roster to complement Alex to maximize those seasons. 

[DJHJR86]

11 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I do think that you're latching onto a small minority of the opinions. I haven't seen this over-abundance of expectations around Smith.

 

They literally had this topic discussed on 980 today.  Sheehan has referenced it.  Callers call in and talk about it.  They've had a segment on 2 different shows about what was more likely: Guice to have 1,000 rushing yards or Smith to surpass 4,000 passing and every caller I heard said Smith.  

 

12 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

- Smith should be able to put up comparable passing numbers (usually a commentary on Gruden's system)

- Smith should be able to reduce the turnovers and short fields for the defense

- Smith should be able to help improve the running game due to his athleticism 

- Smith may have more success getting the ball down the field more effectively

 

-It's not a "negative" or "hating" to think he will not put up comparable numbers.

-This is true, I've yet to see anyone say otherwise.  Although the caveat is that a reduction in the turnovers also takes into account the fact that he's not willing to throw the ball as much which is evident in his less total touchdowns than Kirk for the prior 3 seasons.

-He's also 34 years old, which should give people some pause considering he's here for at least 3 years.

-I agree.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

18 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

They literally had this topic discussed on 980 today.  Sheehan has referenced it.  Callers call in and talk about it.  They've had a segment on 2 different shows about what was more likely: Guice to have 1,000 rushing yards or Smith to surpass 4,000 passing and every caller I heard said Smith.  

 

 

-It's not a "negative" or "hating" to think he will not put up comparable numbers.

-This is true, I've yet to see anyone say otherwise.  Although the caveat is that a reduction in the turnovers also takes into account the fact that he's not willing to throw the ball as much which is evident in his less total touchdowns than Kirk for the prior 3 seasons.

-He's also 34 years old, which should give people some pause considering he's here for at least 3 years.

-I agree.  

 

Well...again, considering Guice is a rookie and we had a QB in this offense put up over 4,000 yards for three straight years, I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Cousins passed for nearly 5,000 yards just a couple years ago. 4,000 (or 250 per game) isn't now what it once was. My personal opinion is that Smith will be right in that ballpark and I hope his passing yardage is down BECAUSE we finally have a running game. 

 

- I agree it's not hating to not think he'll do it - but I would consider "comparable" to be a mid-90s rating, 3,800+ yards and 65-68% completions...what are you expecting?

- It may result in fewer TDs, but there's not necessarily a cause-and-effect there. In fact, Cousins had his highest TD total the year he threw is fewest INTs

- I can't dispute his age of course, but there hasn't really been much to indicate he can't occasionally run the RO or scramble for first downs...even that threat benefits the traditional running game 

- We got one!!

[burgngold fan]

3 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

In addition to the Kirk/Alex thing and how it'll play out, I'm also curious as to how KC is going to do with Mahomes, and what his stat line is going to look like at the end of the year.  

 

 

It's kind of odd that Kirk was never afforded the same luxury by a decent portion of our fan base.  And guess what?  That's okay.  I don't want to have blind loyalty to a player just because they are on my favorite team.  If they signed Brock Osweiler, should everyone be okay with that and get excited?  

No one is "not behind" Alex Smith.  Everyone wants to win.  The hang up is whether or not you think Smith is going to make that much of a difference (negative or positive).

My problem with Kirk was not about his ability to play quarterback.  But his desire to play for the redskins.  He never gave me that warm and fuzzy feeling like he truly wanted to play for us

  It was that doubt. That I could never get completely behind him.  

 

His last act as a redskin really pissed me off. And when the trade happened. I felt it was the best thing that could have happened.  

 

In case you don't know what I'm talking about.  His insistence to talk to the redskin fans after the season was over.   Charge the fans 100 dollars a piece.  Then first thing out of his mouth was ( I want to be a redskin). 2nd out of his mouth( I'm not negotiating any contracts unless they tag me first).  Oh! And it's not about the money!  Lol. Thank you all for all your money I just scammed from y'all.   

 

Personally I thought he was a very good quarterback!  But I'm glad he's gone!  Good luck Minny.  Your gonna need it! 

[HOF44]

3 minutes ago, burgngold fan said:

 I just scammed from y'all.   

 

 

The CBA favors teams so much it's ridiculous.  If a team lets a player get in the position KC was in they have screwed the pooch multiple times along the way to get him there.  He didn't scam anyone, he just played the cards the Skins front office dealt him.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, HOF44 said:

The CBA favors teams so much it's ridiculous.  If a team lets a player get in the position KC was in they have screwed the pooch multiple times along the way to get him there.  He didn't scam anyone, he just played the cards the Skins front office dealt him.  

The same Skins office that went on a smear campaign to anyone that would listen prior to his free agency.  If they were willing to do that after the fact, it's not hard to believe they said the same things while he was in the building. 

[DJHJR86]

46 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I agree it's not hating to not think he'll do it - but I would consider "comparable" to be a mid-90s rating, 3,800+ yards and 65-68% completions...what are you expecting?

 

If he plays on the same level he played in KC:

 

3500-3700 yards, 65% completion, 20 TDs and 7 INTs.  Close to 40 sacks.  5 fumbles, 2 lost.  He'll rush for about 350-400 yards, and get 2 rushing touchdowns.  

 

These are his career averages over the past 5 years.  

18 minutes ago, burgngold fan said:

He never gave me that warm and fuzzy feeling like he truly wanted to play for us

 

Will anyone really care if we go 6-10 that Alex Smith bought a house in DC and attended a Wizards game?

[MisterPinstripe]

Just now, DJHJR86 said:

 

If he plays on the same level he played in KC:

 

3500-3700 yards, 65% completion, 20 TDs and 7 INTs.  Close to 40 sacks.  5 fumbles, 2 lost.  He'll rush for about 350-400 yards, and get 2 rushing touchdowns.  

 

These are his career averages over the past 5 years.  

What do you think that Kirk will do with the Vikings? Do you think Gruden and his system had any impact on what Kirk did here or on what Smiths play will be here?

[DJHJR86]

1 minute ago, MisterPinstripe said:

What do you think that Kirk will do with the Vikings? Do you think Gruden and his system had any impact on what Kirk did here or on what Smiths play will be here?

 

I think DeFilippo and Cousins will be a good match along the same lines that he and McVay were.  I think McVay had a stronger impact on Cousins than Gruden did.  I think his overall yardage might be down because of Cook, but that would mean his turnovers would also be down.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

23 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Do you think Gruden and his system had any impact on what Kirk did here or on what Smiths play will be here?

 

This is what I'd like to know. I liked Cousins and was so happy when he won the job in 2015. But, I don't think Cousins is anything special as a QB. That's not a knock, I mean that literally - he's good, but not SPECIAL. I believe that a good amount of his success came from Gruden's scheme. This season will be a very fun test of that theory. 

 

Cousins put up top-7ish numbers over his 3 seasons here. Unless you think he's a top-7 QB, then you have to assume that Smith is walking into a good situation. In fairness, I think Reid is comparable, so that'll be interesting too. I'm excited to see how it works out!

[MisterPinstripe]

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

This is what I'd like to know. I liked Cousins and was so happy when he won the job in 2015. But, I don't think Cousins is anything special as a QB. That's not a knock, I mean that literally - he's good, but not SPECIAL. I believe that a good amount of his success came from Gruden's scheme. This season will be a very fun test of that theory. 

 

Cousins put up top-7ish numbers over his 3 seasons here. Unless you think he's a top-7 QB, then you have to assume that Smith is walking into a good situation. In fairness, I think Reid is comparable, so that'll be interesting too. I'm excited to see how it works out!

Thats about where I am, I dont think QB is downgraded in anyway but we got a guy that protects the ball much better. Andy Dalton played rather well in Grudens system, Kirk played well in Grudens system, and I think Smith will play well in Grudens system. Combine that with a better running game behind Guice and our defense improving with guys we drafted and guys healthy now, I think we are in good shape.

[DJHJR86]

2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

In fairness, I think Reid is comparable, so that'll be interesting too. I'm excited to see how it works out!

 

This is what worries me.  If Smith plays like he has in KC, based off of the averages of both QBs in terms of TDs (last 3 seasons), we are losing 9 total touchdowns from the position.  Now granted, Guice + better could make that up, but it's still a concern.  And we are also looking to decrease the turnovers (on average) to about 7 less than years with Kirk.  The caveat is that Smith put up these numbers with 75 less attempts than Cousins.  So the TDs could increase just as much as the turnovers.  Who knows?