The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[TD_washingtonredskins]

14 hours ago, carex said:

 

I do not feel like his coaching choices have been shortcuts.  Each time he's changed coaches he's gone from vet to first time (NFL) head coach.  That doesn't show trying to shortcut, that shows trying to adapt

 

Every guy hasn't been the same profile, but they were all instant-gratification types...

 

He hired Marty, then hired the hottest college guy, then hired the best coach in team history...I have no idea how to classify Zorn, so I will admit that wasn't a win-now (or a win-ever) move. But after that he again went with Shanahan to try to recapture magic from over a decade in the past. 

 

I would concede that Gruden felt like a good, long-term hire as he was a well-thought-of coordinator and first-time head coach. But that's the ONLY one I could make that case for. He's constantly just tried to import a culture instantly with a coach rather than find the right guys to run the organization, cultivate the culture and then hire a coach that fits in. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Every guy hasn't been the same profile, but they were all instant-gratification types...

 

He hired Marty, then hired the hottest college guy, then hired the best coach in team history...I have no idea how to classify Zorn, so I will admit that wasn't a win-now (or a win-ever) move. But after that he again went with Shanahan to try to recapture magic from over a decade in the past. 

 

I would concede that Gruden felt like a good, long-term hire as he was a well-thought-of coordinator and first-time head coach. But that's the ONLY one I could make that case for. He's constantly just tried to import a culture instantly with a coach rather than find the right guys to run the organization, cultivate the culture and then hire a coach that fits in. 

 

I am of the opinion that the coach doesn't particularly matter given the way the FO runs the team. Bruce hiring another coach is an exercise in futility. The only advantage to that is it brings optimism to the locker room in the form of a spark. 

 

I don't think Gruden is a bad HC. He does some things ridiculously well. His shortcomings could be made up for with assistant coaches given more autonomy. But he is a sitting duck where he is right now. Seems to have very little control and the "same ole Skins" status is strong with him.

 

The Skins likely need a new HC despite my opinion of Gruden. But Bruce doing the hiring is a giant elephant in the room.

[kingdaddy]

3 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Every guy hasn't been the same profile, but they were all instant-gratification types...

 

He hired Marty, then hired the hottest college guy, then hired the best coach in team history...I have no idea how to classify Zorn, so I will admit that wasn't a win-now (or a win-ever) move. But after that he again went with Shanahan to try to recapture magic from over a decade in the past. 

 

I would concede that Gruden felt like a good, long-term hire as he was a well-thought-of coordinator and first-time head coach. But that's the ONLY one I could make that case for. He's constantly just tried to import a culture instantly with a coach rather than find the right guys to run the organization, cultivate the culture and then hire a coach that fits in. 

I'm in the belief that he hired Gruden because of John Gruden's success. Seriously, why would you hire a coach off of the Marvin Lewis coaching tree coming from the Bengals of all places? I'm sure Jay interviewed well but it seems to me that Dan thought he'd grab a Gruden hoping Jay was as good as John was. Just my opinion.

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not that I believe Dan or Bruce are capable of identifying talent before it hatches, but with Kyle it was never going to happen for the sake of the RG3 war.  That bridge was burnt completely to ashes by midway 2013 if not earlier.

No doubt....but that goes to show how long the disconnect between the front office and everyone else in the organization has existed. Think about it, we've had coaches leave, secretaries, players, fans, parking attendants, concession workers, etc, etc, all for similar reasons....the way the front office does things. It's a common theme, but I know you already knew that. This front office does things their way and only their way...and that's why the Skins suck year after year after year. Good people scorned and left to move on.

[HOF44]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

 

But Bruce doing the hiring is a giant elephant in the room.

Scary as hell really!  In my dream scenario Bruce is sent packing, Shafer can move to team President, Kyle Smith is promoted to GM, a real GM. He picks the coach and works with the coach on staffing.  The chance of that actually happening is zero though.  So whatever...................

[TD_washingtonredskins]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I am of the opinion that the coach doesn't particularly matter given the way the FO runs the team. Bruce hiring another coach is an exercise in futility. The only advantage to that is it brings optimism to the locker room in the form of a spark. 

 

I don't think Gruden is a bad HC. He does some things ridiculously well. His shortcomings could be made up for with assistant coaches given more autonomy. But he is a sitting duck where he is right now. Seems to have very little control and the "same ole Skins" status is strong with him.

 

The Skins likely need a new HC despite my opinion of Gruden. But Bruce doing the hiring is a giant elephant in the room.

 

I agree...that's why I'd continue to classify these hires as shortcuts. You're trying to impose a culture change from middle management. The change needs to come at the top layers of the organization and then a coach needs to be hired who fits that culture and organizational philosophy. That's how your pro scouting, college scouting, free agency strategy, draft strategy, and coach's decisions all align. 

[goskins10]

Nothing really new here but interesting to hear it from people that knows Bruce personally. Some interesting comments - one in particular - Bruce is fine face to face but who knows when you walk away. 

 

 

[ntotoro]

Lombardi is talking about Brucie Boy chasing off McLovin, but I don't really think that experiment really bore the fruit that is still attached to his name... and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing more than once and expecting different results, not stupidity. So... Pretzel Boy is insane and a complete prick, but not stupid.

 

Then Lombardi whiffs on the question of whether he'd work for Pretzel Boy if given the opportunity. He says what someone has to do to work for him, but completely whiffs on whether he'd do it if offered. Complete chicken. Be bold, don't just talk trash.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

Lombardi is talking about Brucie Boy chasing off McLovin, but I don't really think that experiment really bore the fruit that is still attached to his name... and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing more than once and expecting different results, not stupidity. So... Pretzel Boy is insane and a complete prick, but not stupid.

 

Then Lombardi whiffs on the question of whether he'd work for Pretzel Boy if given the opportunity. He says what someone has to do to work for him, but completely whiffs on whether he'd do it if offered. Complete chicken. Be bold, don't just talk trash.

I listened to the whole thing and I didn't hear him talking anything about chasing off Scot, that was merely a point brought up by one of the Junks.

 

I know it hurts when someone breaks down why the franchise is a dumpster fire and the proposed solutions are not in the realm of possibility, leaving absolutely no hope.  But there is no reason to shoot the messenger.

[ntotoro]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I listened to the whole thing and I didn't hear him talking anything about chasing off Scot, that was merely a point brought up by one of the Junks.

 

I know it hurts when someone breaks down why the franchise is a dumpster fire and the proposed solutions are not in the realm of possibility, leaving absolutely no hope.  But there is no reason to shoot the messenger.

 

We all know the reasons why. This stuff is nothing new. I just took exception to those two things. The deal with McLovin, there was more detail than Brucie Boy's ego chasing him off. He wasn't the goose that laid the golden egg as it twere, anyway. It's not as simple as a battle of egos. The deal with the Junks asking if he'd accept an offer from Dan... you can't just trash the man, even with the obvious, for ten minutes and fail to give a definitive answer to the question. If you're gonna' come, come heavy or don't come at all. That's my point. Say "**** no, I'd never work for this dumpster juice organization, are you ****ing kidding me?"

 

I'm not even upset about the team anymore, which is actually worse. I'm actively praying Pretzel Boy fails to get a new stadium deal and is either forced to live in that ****hole in Landover or move the team and uproot it. I'm really ready for that.

[skinsmania123]

One of the most important things when you think about organizational failures, and corrections, is typically there is a board. So even the top guy can be removed and replaced.  While Snyder reaps the benefits financially as all owners do in the NFL, like a share holder in the public sector,  the more private aspect of it means he can never be replaced or fired.  And fans not turning up at the dump that would be Fedex will never sufficiently hurt him financially because of the reaped benefit to all owners of NFL teams.

 

If you make an investment in a business that you believe in great.  Owning an NFL team, even a loser, if you have the money is going to reap you a financial benefit. When you let your fandom and emotions take over in a business that you lack the skill set to run, yet you continue down the same wayward path,  well this is the end result isn't it?   Do you really think Kraft is involved in the day to day activities of the Patriot's. Of your he is not.   

 

 Bruce Allen and in the past Vinnie Cerrato have/had power because Daniel Snyder gave it to them.  

 

Until Daniel Snyder decided to step aside by hiring a legitimate GM, who sets the tone and intentions for the organization, which includes letting him higher the coach, and then the coach is allowed to higher his staff, and play the players he wants to play, the trickle down effect that marks a good organizational structures,  the Skin's will stay where they are.  

 

That is really the bottom line. If Gruden's hands have been so tied you know and he stays because the money is good, well that is on him isn't it?  There are no victims here.  And if Gruden allows Allen and Snyder dictate who he plays, who coaches, etc. then you get what you get.  

 

And the bottom line is the hiring over the years of multiple HC's and DC's has not changed the outcome or culture because it is a top down structure that stinks at the top.  

 

Yeah I know this is repetitive but really you can bring in great coaches but if what they do is hijacked by a pseudo GM and an owner who can't stop meddling in an area he should never be involve in, then you stay the way you stay until Daniel Snyder sells this team.  And that is never going to happen.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

We all know the reasons why. This stuff is nothing new. I just took exception to those two things. The deal with McLovin, there was more detail than Brucie Boy's ego chasing him off. He wasn't the goose that laid the golden egg as it twere, anyway. It's not as simple as a battle of egos. The deal with the Junks asking if he'd accept an offer from Dan... you can't just trash the man, even with the obvious, for ten minutes and fail to give a definitive answer to the question. If you're gonna' come, come heavy or don't come at all. That's my point. Say "**** no, I'd never work for this dumpster juice organization, are you ****ing kidding me?"

 

 

I just don't see how you can take exception to anything he said about Scot considering he really didn't talk about that at all.  

 

It also didn't come off like a big **** talking session to me, that needed to be ended with a "I'd never work there".  He was probably just taken off guard by the question.  To each their own.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, skinsmania123 said:

That is really the bottom line. If Gruden's hands have been so tied you know and he stays because the money is good, well that is on him isn't it?  There are no victims here.  And if Gruden allows Allen and Snyder dictate who he plays, who coaches, etc. then you get what you get.  

I agree with primarily everything you said but take exception to this part...

 

Head coaches with fully guaranteed contracts don't just resign, what they do is wait to be fired.  I don't see any real reason to make the point above other than to not absolve Gruden due to personal dislike.

[Riggo#44]

I loved what Lombardi had to say. And the biggest problem, and the saddest part of this all: EVERYONE in the NFL knows what a **** show this organization is...except Allen and except Snyder.

 

It. Will. Never. Change. 

[skinsmania123]

41 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I agree with primarily everything you said but take exception to this part...

 

Head coaches with fully guaranteed contracts don't just resign, what they do is wait to be fired.  I don't see any real reason to make the point above other than to not absolve Gruden due to personal dislike.

 You know actually I have said in numerous posts that I think Jay is a a good guy.  A gentleman.  I would sit down with him and have a beer and probably really enjoy the conversation and the time spent.   I just think he has been depicted by his supporters, which apparently you are one, as a bit of a victim.   And you know if he is that upset by the lack of integrity going on he could certainly say something or do something to get himself fired and not an owner in this league would hold it against him would they?

 

 You know the writing has been on the wall regarding this team and its organizational structure for well over a decade and a half.  You know what you are getting into when you sign up. Gruden may or may not have had choices, but he sure as hell hired DC's that failed in prior tenures.  Success leaves as many clues as failure.  

 

I will never understand how Wade Phillips walked out the door without a contract.   That shocked me. It is not something I believed Gruden would do which makes me question how much control the dude has.  OR if he did have control that happened why? Afraid he might actually take his job?     

 

 

[Riggo#44]

Oh, I think Jay Gruden has gone full Peter Gibbons.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

I just think he has been depicted by his supporters, which apparently you are one, as a bit of a victim.   And you know if he is that upset by the lack of integrity going on he could certainly say something or do something to get himself fired and not an owner in this league would hold it against him would they?

 

 You know the writing has been on the wall regarding this team and its organizational structure for well over a decade and a half.  You know what you are getting into when you sign up.      

 

I am a supporter in that I don’t believe he’s been given a tremendous opportunity to succeed here.  Are there things that I’d like to see him do differently though? Sure.  So I’m kind of a mixed bag on Gruden.

 

What I disagree with is the notion that coaches are just supposed to suck it up because the franchise is known as dysfunctional.  Or just go off the rails and fight the power so to speak.  Sure, that would be great but not very realistic.

 

Every head coach has strengths and weaknesses.  It’s up to the organization to enhance strengths and Foster an environment and culture that makes the weaknesses stronger.  That just doesn’t happen here.  So you can insert anybody you want at head coach and inevitably, you are going to end up frustrated with them.  No coach is going to be the magic wand that overcomes Ashburn.  

 

Another issue I don’t get is that Jay is so terrible of a coach, and the FO is such a mess, yet they play roughly .500 ball.  Something doesn’t add up.  

[ThomasRoane]

4 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

I loved what Lombardi had to say. And the biggest problem, and the saddest part of this all: EVERYONE in the NFL knows what a **** show this organization is...except Allen and except Snyder.

 

It. Will. Never. Change. 

 

Am I the only one who thinks that Bruce has some dirt on Dan?  That's the only reasonable explanation for allowing the madness to continue.  

[Riggo#44]

1 minute ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Am I the only one who thinks that Bruce has some dirt on Dan?  That's the only reasonable explanation for allowing the madness to continue.  

 

It is 100% his last name. Dan is obsessed with former Redskins. Being related to George Allen gives him carte blanche.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

It is 100% his last name. Dan is obsessed with former Redskins. Being related to George Allen gives him carte blanche.

 

I think it's time to finally reveal that my real name is Rick Petitbon, estranged son of Richie. I could be set up nicely with a full-time job in Ashburn. 

[Dissident2]

1 minute ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Am I the only one who thinks that Bruce has some dirt on Dan?  That's the only reasonable explanation for allowing the madness to continue.  

I think it's more likely that he's one of the few people in the world Danny calls "a friend." Plus, he's connected to the team that was probably part of Danny's first Redskin memories under George Allen, and we all know how easy it is to hypnotize this fool with nostalgia for the glory days. He's probably learned over the years how to make Danny feel "special". He probably has told him every day for the last 8 years how tall he really is, how smart he really is, how he's the best owner in the NFL, but so misunderstood, etc., etc., etc. I think they probably have some sort of weird co-dependent thing going on. Co-dependent buffoons. 

[JSSkinz]

Lombardi is on 106.7 trashing Bruce at least once a month, it's funny how passionate he can be concerning Bruce's F Ups.

 

We need about 10 more Lombardi's actively trashing Bruce on the regular to get the point across to Dan.

[skinsmania123]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:I am a supporter in that I don’t believe he’s been given a tremendous opportunity to succeed here.  Are there things that I’d like to see him do differently though? Sure.  So I’m kind of a mixed bag on Gruden.

 

What I disagree with is the notion that coaches are just supposed to suck it up because the franchise is known as dysfunctional.  Or just go off the rails and fight the power so to speak.  Sure, that would be great but not very realistic.

 

Every head coach has strengths and weaknesses.  It’s up to the organization to enhance strengths and Foster an environment and culture that makes the weaknesses stronger.  That just doesn’t happen here.  So you can insert anybody you want at head coach and inevitably, you are going to end up frustrated with them.  No coach is going to be the magic wand that overcomes Ashburn.  

 

Another issue I don’t get is that Jay is so terrible of a coach, and the FO is such a mess, yet they play roughly .500 ball.  Something doesn’t add up.  

I don't think any coach should suck it up, but I think coming into this particular organization you would be fairly aware of what has happened historically unless you are living under a rock.  Even if Gruden considered his past ties to Allen and had a thought like - "how bad can it be" surely there was enough out there regarding Allen's reputation to cause him to pause a bit.   And that is not even taking into consideration all the bone-headed interfering maneuvers of Dan's that were publicly known.

 

I imagine anyone considering a HC gig here could save themselves a lot of frustration by outlining some specifications before they start the gig.  But I think for Gruden since it was his first rodeo as a HC, he was not going to say much of anything.  I also believe all NFL HC's coming in, regardless of how beleaguered an organization is, think they are going to "be the guy" that turns it around.   And of course they should.  I don't think Gruden is an exception to that nor should he be.  

 

Regarding his record looking at other HC's - 6-10;  10-6, 5-11, 9-7, with Gibb's 2 here and 2 playoff appearances in four years, and one win.  Zorn was a disaster.  With Shanny - 1 playoff appearance in 4 years,    First year with Gruden 4-12; second year playoff appearance with Cousin's, 9-7; then 8-7; 7-9; 7-9; and who knows what this year will be but right now, I would not be shocked with a 4-12 record.  So he has had, barring a miracle this year,  one playoff appearance over what will be six year stint. A .500 record won't give you ****. It is just a tease making a FO and even coach think they will crack it next year.  But they never have.   Injuries I must agree have helped derail them but the real glory days of the Skins came between 1982-1992 under Gibb's.

 

  The other part, and I think this is why things stay subpar, is there is probably no firm structure in place or at least one that is very unstable, or bendable boundaries because  Bruce and Dan interfere anytime they want. I guarantee Danny never interfered with Gibb's.  

[Rufus T Firefly]

8 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Lombardi is on 106.7 trashing Bruce at least once a month, it's funny how passionate he can be concerning Bruce's F Ups.

 

We need about 10 more Lombardi's actively trashing Bruce on the regular to get the point across to Dan.

I doubt it matters. When you're bunkered into an "us vs. them" mentality, adding more "thems" usually doesn't do anything but entrench you more. 

[PartyPosse]

23 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

It is 100% his last name. Dan is obsessed with former Redskins. Being related to George Allen gives him carte blanche.

It's all about getting the stadium built and the Allen name supposedly still carries a lot of weight around there.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

 You know actually I have said in numerous posts that I think Jay is a a good guy.  A gentleman.  I would sit down with him and have a beer and probably really enjoy the conversation and the time spent.   I just think he has been depicted by his supporters, which apparently you are one, as a bit of a victim.   And you know if he is that upset by the lack of integrity going on he could certainly say something or do something to get himself fired and not an owner in this league would hold it against him would they?

 

 You know the writing has been on the wall regarding this team and its organizational structure for well over a decade and a half.  You know what you are getting into when you sign up. Gruden may or may not have had choices, but he sure as hell hired DC's that failed in prior tenures.  Success leaves as many clues as failure.  

 

 

I think victim is the wrong word.  I think it's that no coach comes here and succeeds.  It's a fact, not a theory at least thus far.   There is a reason why I think guys like Marty, Shanny or even Gibbs his 2nd time around do not match their previous heights or come even close to doing it.

 

The rest of this isn't directed at you. Just about every beat reporter has said (including today) there are stories as to happenings behind the scenes some involving Jay that they can't share.   i am betting ultimately some of those stories surface.   But it comes off soap operaish whatever the stories are. 

 

I've heard multiple beat reporters say today for example if Manusky stays or goes its not ultimately Jay's decision.   There is so much noise and so many rumors that it's difficult to know what's true or not.  Some of it I am sure isn't true and some is.  The law of averages would dictate something like that.  Some of the homers grab hold to every time a rumor doesn't pan out to mean that none or most of it isn't true.  I personally disagree. 

 

Forget the Redskins, let's say a friend gives you a description of an event that they witnessed and you haven't.  If you tried to corroborate that story.   You'd probably learn that some facts are true, some might not be, some might be hyperbole.  It's just that nature of any rumor-gossip-story.    I am making this case because so much of the FO debate centers on what's true or not.  I really got no idea.  However, when reporters who are conservative stylistically like Keim when pushed on podcasts will admit yeah I've heard some wild stories about what goes on at Redskins Park.  And just about every other reporter concurs.  I'd think there is something cooking there that doesn't make it a fun or winning environment that brings the best out of the employees.

 

The more I think about it, I hope Jay gets fired.  Not because he's a buffoon as some seem to think.  This isn't directed at you.  But I notice some of the posts about Jay makes you think he's lucky to tie his shoes successfully and finds his way to be able to walk out of his house -- let alone run a team.    I'd want him gone for his own sanity.  😀 I think he's a good dude.  And I think he'd be a better coach elsewhere.  The poor dude has been here longer than any other coach, I wouldn't blame him if his attitude this season is WTF where he feels he has nothing to lose.  Both Sheehan and Russell said they heard this off season that Jay has had it and doesn't care if he's gone after the season.   

 

 

 

 

 

...The owner's job is to establish the culture, is to say to the head coach, 'Look, here's the kind of football team I want to have. And it's your job to make me get there and in five years if we're not there I'm gonna have to make a change.' But the culture's never changing. The culture is never changing."

"Snyder is never gonna grasp it.

 

...And so what Bruce does, I mean, look at his record. There's been no general manager that's been in his job as long as Bruce has, that has that below a .500 winning percentage."

 

What does that mean for current Washington head coach Jay Gruden?

"I feel bad for Jay Gruden. Jay Gruden's trying to get fired," Lombardi said on 106.7 The Fan. "The day they come and tell Jay Gruden he can't coach the team anymore he may be running around the parking lot like George Costanza.

 

"He can't wait. At least Jay understands it's incompetence. You can... hear it in his voice, he knows that it's not gonna work. He's really content with it, I think," Lombardi said.

And part of the problem, according to Lombardi, is the Redskins president doesn't have the right experience to be in charge of player personnel. This is not the first time Lombardi has made that argument about Allen.

 

"Bruce has been the general manager under the disguise as a football guy," Lombardi told Grant & Danny in January. "Bruce never did any football with the Raiders when I worked there. He wasn't even in the draft meetings when we were there. He never was involved in player personnel." 

Lombardi said he had good "working relationship" with Allen while the two worked together in Oakland, but added, "Bruce is wonderful when you are face-to-face, but you only know what happens after that."

All the Redskins problem go back to culture.

 

"Why do you think they have trouble with their training room? They have no culture," Lombardi told 106.7 The Fan. "You think any player believes what the front office tells them? You really think that any player believes it? Of course, they don't."

"I would tell Dan, look we need to rebuild this organization from top to bottom," he said. "Bruce has gotta go. It's like when they were talking about Vito in 'The Sopranoes.' He's gotta go."