The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

Doug is so honest that he can't help let things slip from time to time.   For example, he admitted people didn't all agree in the draft room on the Payne pick.   They've spelled out multiple times that they have a committee approach as for decisions.  With the draft, I gather it happens that way by osmosis because the decision makers are all in the same room and its coming at you fast.   But I gather that's not the case about everything -- because it sounds like that might not be the case for trades and FA. 

 

Coincidently, FA and trades according to some who cover the team is where Bruce is heavily involved.    Supposedly, Bruce isn't that involved with the draft.  But who knows since they are so mysterious about explaining their operation aside from liking to say they are a committee driven operation where they make "Redskins decisions" 

 

The idea that a FO can overrule a HC or supersede him.  Nothing wrong with that IMO.   That's how it should work.  But not including them in decisions let alone they find out about calls that were made via the media -- that's not right IMO.  Ditto hearing that they don't consider the team's schemes in the mix of their personnel decisions.   It's practically a cliche that for new personnel to work they have to fit the scheme well. 

 

Now if its Bruce making the calls --I've never been a fan of that because a football guy should be making football decisions IMO.  And Bruce to me is mostly a politician not a football guy.   That goes double for Dan.  And am surprised Sheehan's revelation in a recent podcast that Dan is now involved again has gotten little play.  To me that seems intuitive starting with us hearing about Dan pushing for Bowles and Gregg Williams, etc.  

 

The hard thing for me as a fan is that since we don't have a real football person in charge it makes me think about what poison I prefer?  You got Bruce's approach which to me is like driving a car 30 miles an hour and crowing about not getting into accidents and acting like he's a race car driver.  Then you got Dan that left to his own devices will drive the car 90 miles an hour, its a wild ride and more exciting but he will crash it.   And they both come off as sleaze balls in the process.  So neither one makes the ride fun because to me at least they both come off unlikeable for different reasons. 

 

As fans we sometimes get into these debates as if there are only two extremes to drive a car and if you don't like one, you must like the opposite extreme.  My position for starters is hire a real football person where we don't feel the need to even think about whether the top guy knows what he's doing.  But if I had to choose one extreme, I might actually lean towards Dan's way IF he hired someone who can actually drive the car fast the right way.  John Dorsey is a gambler.  So is Howie Roseman.  They are aggressive.  They take chances and mostly win.  Dan doesn't know how to do it and hires the wrong people.   And even worse he thinks he can do it in spite of all his failures. 

 

 

 

 

 

[bakedtater1]

25 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I have all but eliminated facebook from my life, and only check in on twitter to see if any Skins news has hit--that's where I saw the whole Jay-is-frustrated story and thought they may be preparing for life without him in the near future. I don't even come here nearly as much as in the past...only social media platforms I use regularly are photo apps like instagram and Twenty20 (photo contests and sales app). I interact with others thru my photos lol...

Yep..once I'm banned from this place for life, I'll officially have nothing to do with Facebook or any other social media...I have a $800 flashlight (my phone)..

[757SeanTaylor21]

Look, what did yall expect? We're a horrible ran franchise. The minute bruce and jay wasnt fired together is the minute you should of seen the smoke from the fire in the dumpster. Couple with the fact that they tries to find a dc replacement while manusky was still herr just shows how incompetent the fo is. 

[NewCliche21]

And we're back to square none.

 

Couldn't hate Snyder more at this point.  I was so happy and honestly a little proud of him for not getting involved the past few years, and then he not only KEEPS Allen, he jumps in too.

Buddy, you're not in your mid-thirties anymore.  No more excuses.  Grow the eff up or write the damn sales proposal.

Franchise ownership:  YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

[Skinsinparadise]

My take is if these stories are true:

 

A. Dan making moves at D coordinator himself or trying to do so

B. Dan now involved in FA after supposedly not being involved in recent years

C. Jay not even consulted on off season moves

 

Aside from worrying about Dan in the saddle -- yuck... my other thought is just fire Jay.  What's the point of neutering him?  If you don't trust your head coach then let him go.  Ditto Bruce.   The only things I can think of is Jay still has two years on his contract and Dan supposedly hates to eat money like that.  And some say Bruce and Jay are somewhat tied as to them both being under the gun for a one year win or else season.  And I am guessing the key is Bruce is the lead in getting the stadium.

 

If Bruce is a master at playing the power game at Redskins Park as some say to be the case then I'll give him this:  it's an absolute masterstroke on his end to chase a stadium without the help of a lobbyist.  

 

As I've said on this thread before, from my experience i've seen multiple lobbyists help teams pursuing stadiums.  And sometimes that's even coupled with a political grassroots effort that has some serious money behind it.  I've done a little work for one of them.   In Florida of late, they typically hire the most high powered lobbyist in the state.  I know the dude so I know a little about this.  For Bruce to make himself the be all and end all on the stadium where he's a one man show -- talk about making yourself indispensable.  

 

If you guys recall one of the tweets I posted here weeks ago was a TMZ short interview of Bruce where Bruce was actually on Capitol Hill.  So my guess is Dan wants to overhaul but can't get himself to eat Jay's contract and is nervous as heck about the stadium which Bruce is fully running the quest for.     Dan IMO has poor instincts and management skills to say the least.   But for this year it might be an interesting challenge for him because I bet he's dying to overhaul the operation and start over yet he has to overcome other things that preclude all of that in his mind. 

 

That's my theory at least.  But who knows?  Dan is a mysterious dude. 😀

 

[bedlamVR]

Can i just say I like Jay Gruden and I don't have a lot of faith in the FO. . I also kind of don't have a lot of faith in the local media and talking heads around washington DC. 

 

But is the team getting ready to move on from Gruden? Well, consecutive 7-9 seasons - one playoff appearance in 4 isn't inspiring anyone. - Is it unreasonable to think Jay might be gone by the end of this year? Not really - Is it all Jays fault - Not really - Jay is a great teacher a nice guy easy to like - but i get the impression he kind of hires people like him - What he kind of lacks is that spark in the games to adapt to change well and while the offense is well schemed - it was only when McVay was here calling plays was the scheming put to good use in 'adaptive' playcalling. ( McVay was also not perfect) . 

 

You also have to question what is the issue with the defensive co-ordinatiors he picks, and what is with all the injuries. To be at the top of the league in injuries for one year is unfortunate but to always be there - then maybe its not all bad luck. 

 

The other thing here is the backdrop - Fan attendance is abysmal - the team is - in the area at one of its lowest ebbs - They are looking to get a deal for a new expensive stadium to be able to generate buzz -  and right now its looking like the team would struggle to get the references to  rent a one-room apartment in a slum - and that is partly to do with the ownership but also because the on-field product is so ---- insipid - Even when we were two games up in the division - no one thought of us as playoff contenders.

 

- So I would not be supprised if Jay is on very thin ice..... even if he acts only as a scapegoat for the season  

 

If Jay is not being consulted at all about what the player acquisition arm is doing - then yeah - thats not going to end well - But it does kind of suggest two things - The structure of the organization is fragmented and compartmentalized (an issue that can be traced all the way back to Bruce and Dan - but also if it is more obvious this year - then it kind of looks like some people are setting in to set out their resumes to a wider audience ... and to do that they are not going to want to very tightly associate themselves with a lame duck headcoach -

 

The other possibility - and this is slightly more terrifying - is the FO still think we are a championship level team - the coaching staff insist they need more help and the FO as thinking ----" Naaaah we are cool - we are a superbowl team already - what else can we add ?" - and they are always avoiding Jay becausre he keeps asking for quaterbacks, and offensive linemen and stuff - we have all that ...................... 

 

The only real negative to this could be that Bruce lines up all his ducks in a row to take out Jay and lives on to fight on another day- And we have ANOTHER vinny issue. There are competent people in the FO and I actually think everyone at Redskins park loves and cares deaply for the franchise. What i don' think is the case is they have any level of objectivity - or- and this is after nearly 20 years of saying this - strong direction or identity ... 

 

  

[Riggo#44]

As much as I despise Allen and Snyder, there were also rumors of our entire coaching staff fleeing this off season, which didn't happen. So, take with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't be shocked at all if this was 100% true. I don't put anything past these nitwits.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Anyone else remembering how Dan and Bruce found out about AP coming in for a visit through the media instead of from Doug Williams? lol...

[TradeTheBeal!]

The Free Agency period has started to cool down, so unsubstantiated stories like this are a great way to get clicks going until the draft happens.

 

Get that money, y’all!

[kingdaddy]

As fans, how long do we have to stand for this? If this report about Gruden is true then he should just resign and save some dignity. This would be the best thing for him and ultimately us fans as well. We need to show Dan that we won't support his team as long as he leaves Bruce Allen in charge....

We need to hear from Jay on this latest report. 

[Peregrine]

21 minutes ago, bedlamVR said:

Can i just say I like Jay Gruden and I don't have a lot of faith in the FO. . I also kind of don't have a lot of faith in the local media and talking heads around washington DC. 

 

But is the team getting ready to move on from Gruden? Well, consecutive 7-9 seasons - one playoff appearance in 4 isn't inspiring anyone. - Is it unreasonable to think Jay might be gone by the end of this year? Not really - Is it all Jays fault - Not really - Jay is a great teacher a nice guy easy to like - but i get the impression he kind of hires people like him - What he kind of lacks is that spark in the games to adapt to change well and while the offense is well schemed - it was only when McVay was here calling plays was the scheming put to good use in 'adaptive' playcalling. ( McVay was also not perfect) . ............

 

The only real negative to this could be that Bruce lines up all his ducks in a row to take out Jay and lives on to fight on another day- And we have ANOTHER vinny issue. There are competent people in the FO and I actually think everyone at Redskins park loves and cares deaply for the franchise. What i don' think is the case is they have any level of objectivity - or- and this is after nearly 20 years of saying this - strong direction or identity ... 

 

  

I agree with so much of this, including the real negative being Bruce lives to die another day...

 

But whoa whoa whoa, lets not give Jay TOO much credit here, its 1 playoff appearance in FIVE seasons 😂.

[Riggo#44]

6 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

As fans, how long do we have to stand for this? If this report about Gruden is true then he should just resign and save some dignity. This would be the best thing for him and ultimately us fans as well. We need to show Dan that we won't support his team as long as he leaves Bruce Allen in charge....

We need to hear from Jay on this latest report. 

 

The Eagles game was 90% Eagles fans. TV ratings are plummeting. I think the message is clear.

[Skinsinparadise]

Grant Paulsen just weighed in.   He has some sources in that FO considering he with Russell broke the Scot story.  

 

In his view, he thinks Jay had to be aware that Collins or whomever was a target but he might not have been aware of the actual deal when it happened.  However, in his view, Jay's power has been diluted in that FO.  In the past, his opinion was considered in the soup.  But now not so much.  His take is this story is its mostly about Jay being a lame duck coach as most suspect to be the case. 

 

I guess we will see. 

[clskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

I have all but eliminated facebook from my life, and only check in on twitter to see if any Skins news has hit--that's where I saw the whole Jay-is-frustrated story and thought they may be preparing for life without him in the near future. I don't even come here nearly as much as in the past...only social media platforms I use regularly are photo apps like instagram and Twenty20 (photo contests and sales app). I interact with others thru my photos lol...

 

Amen brother. Social media is nothing but a hate filled embarrassment to mankind. As far as Jay not being informed. Does it really shock anyone? Bruce will do whatever he thinks he needs to do to save his own ass. Nothing shocking here other than how obvious they are making it that Jays time in DC is very limited. I hope Dan shocks the world once Bruce fires Jay and fires Bruce's sorry ass at the same time.

[Warhead36]

Dysfunction, thy name is Redskins.

[Riggo#44]

6 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I hope Dan shocks the world once Bruce fires Jay and fires Bruce's sorry ass at the same time.

 

One intsy-teensy-tiny problem in that scenario: It's still Snyder making the ultimate decision. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

31 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The Free Agency period has started to cool down, so unsubstantiated stories like this are a great way to get clicks going until the draft happens.

 

Get that money, y’all!

Yes, because the Junkies have so much to gain for passing this along.  

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

As fans, how long do we have to stand for this? If this report about Gruden is true then he should just resign and save some dignity. This would be the best thing for him and ultimately us fans as well. We need to show Dan that we won't support his team as long as he leaves Bruce Allen in charge....

We need to hear from Jay on this latest report. 

 

Junkies said Jay will deny it because its a bad look for the team and he's a team player.  They think once he's gone, he'd be happy to share.  Who knows, will see.  As for Jay quitting, he'd be giving up 10 million dollars.  If anything if he wanted to strike back the last thing he'd want to do is quit. 

 

My personal guess on this is Jay is too nice and cool of a guy to let this or any story get in the way of the season.  He will plow ahead and ignore the noise.  I know some here aren't fans of Jay.  And I do see multiple flaws in him as a coach and even pointed them out in a heavy handed way.  So I am not some blind Jay homer.  But I've said before and I'll keep saying it, the dude has the perfect personality for this team.  You need a coach IMO who isn't thin skinned and can block out noise.  Jay is good at that.    He has other attributes IMO aside from his personality.  But I do think his personality is tailor made in a good way to deal with dysfunction. 

 

I gather some here might think all that noise is phony and its purely fabricated by the media.  And no doubt some stuff probably isn't true.  But all of it?  For that to be true, DC would have the toughest and weirdest coverage for any sports teams in the country.  Since when has DC become the toughest?  I thought that would be NY or Philly or even Boston.   It's not like every team is killed with stories about dysfunction from their team president and owner and this is just simply our version of it. 

 

The Redskins FO is a national punch line.  Why them?  All smoke and no fire?    That's hard for me to believe.  And that's not because I am just a reflex cynic.  I've defended Dan and even Bruce plenty of times especially during the Shanny era.  I even went to bat for Bruce on the Scot situation and was even cool with how he handled the previous QB situation until it went south.    Both Dan and Bruce really had to work it for me to go south on them.   

 

The thing I always hang to is even if every reporter made everything up for whatever wacky reason.  You got enough to play with by the statements alone coming out of Jay, Doug, Bruce to piece together a narrative. 

 

But for the few that tend to defend the FO.  I'll preempt it by saying yes this isn't the worst team in the NFL.  They aren't awful.  They are mediocre. I agree with that point.  I do think they have it in them to figure out a way to get 8-8 or close to it.  If the holy grail is now sneaking into the playoffs every 4 years or so at 9-7 and getting whipped in the playoffs in round 1 -- then I agree we got that cooking.    That's why to me the best analogy I can think of is having a kid who is a perpetual C student in school but is also arrogant as heck and finds himself in detention too much.  I could swallow the C student stuff much easier if it was smooth ride without all the other baggage.   The baggage for me is too much for me to then turn around and celebrate C level work.

 

But the biggest thing that drives me is I have some optimism.  They seem to have a real good football dude who works in that building.  And that dude isn't Bruce.    Let him run the show.  The college scouting is good. Let Kyle run everything.  That's my one hope. 

 

 

 

 

[Captain James]

Well can we please get this crap sorted out by the draft so that we can have a solid game-plan and actually know who our QB is going to be before Week 1?? This is getting hairy.

[clskinsfan]

3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

One intsy-teensy-tiny problem in that scenario: It's still Snyder making the ultimate decision. 

 Very true. But Dan isnt going anywhere. I am almost ready for him to move the team at this point. And let us start over from scratch.

[carex]

8 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 Very true. But Dan isnt going anywhere. I am almost ready for him to move the team at this point. And let us start over from scratch.

 

then you're no longer a Redskins fan

[Riggo#44]

9 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 Very true. But Dan isnt going anywhere. I am almost ready for him to move the team at this point. And let us start over from scratch.

 

Therein lies the problem: our head is rotten therefore the organization will always be rotten.

[bakedtater1]

19 minutes ago, carex said:

 

then you're no longer a Redskins fan

So if the team moved it certainly would change the name?.. what if they were to move and still be called the Washington Redskins?.. one could still be a fan then right?

[goskins10]

27 minutes ago, carex said:

 

then you're no longer a Redskins fan

 

There is name thread so not wanting to proliferate this, but simply in terms of Dan, if it meant getting a new owner, as much as I want to keep the name, it may be worth it to move on from that POS! 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

As much as I despise Allen and Snyder, there were also rumors of our entire coaching staff fleeing this off season, which didn't happen. So, take with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't be shocked at all if this was 100% true. I don't put anything past these nitwits.

 

Most thought Jay would survive after the Jax game went well.  The person who they thought was likely a goner was Manusky.  If the Bowles, Gregg Williams stories were true -- clearly they tried to upgrade that spot.  But it didn't work out.

 

As for the whole coaching stuff, I am gathering you mean Callahan and Tomsula.  Yep neither one of them ended up leaving.  Would have Tomsula left if Manusky was fired?  Callahan if he wasn't under a contract?  no way to know. But they weren't a mile off.  Jay indeed stayed.   Looks like they considered moving from Manusky.

 

The rest of this post isn't directed at you but just my thoughts about the media in general.   My thought about the media in the context of Bruce-Dan isn't that they are always on the money about them.   There isn't a subject that reporters are 100% accurate on -- its impossible to pull that off.   To be 100% accurate you would need every source to nail everything perfectly.   That's even tougher when it comes to speculation-projections.    Someone could want to leave one day and change their mind the next.   One person in the building could feel a certain way and another could feel differently. 

 

The reason why I give the media slack on Redskins coverage is there is so much noise leading to the same conclusions.  And sometimes Redskins officials reveal some of it themselves to build that narrative even more.    Lets take this Jay story.  What else have we got on the same theme?

 

A.  Russell's story that Bruce and Jay had tension over last years FA

B.  Doug revealing that not everyone was on board with their first round pick last year and specifically told a story about Jay being unhappy about not taking Quinn earlier in the draft.  An insider here, said they heard Jay was among the dissenting voices on the first round pick.  

C.  The story that Jay wanted D. Jax to stay but was overruled

D. A bunch of stories in 2017 from Mike Jones about Jay having a beef with how the QB contract negotiation was handled

E.  Sheehan's recent story that Dan is now involved with FA.

F.  The national story about Dan getting involved with the D coordinator search

G.  Paulsen's story that Jay didn't love the Alex acquisition 

H. Today's story about Jay not playing a part in FA

I.  Jay saying one of the things he wants to fix is to get the personnel depart on the same page as coaching

J.  Doug saying as to personnel acquisitions they don't factor scheme

H.  It came out that Jay didn't have time to evaluate the college QBs last year before the FO made the decision to not pursue a college QB.

 

Is it likely some of this is wrong?  Probably.   Some of them even have counter stories to them.   But all of it?  And how do we reconcile statements from the actual participants that play into that theme -- just odd misstatements that just coincidentally fit that narrative?

 

Yeah does any of this preclude their new found mediocrity?    Probably not.  But does this style of management impinge on ever getting a SB win.  I think so.  Bill Walsh liked to say there are only 8 teams that are really vying for the big dance and the rest of them get in their own way and don't pose to be a threat.  IMO the Redskins are one of those teams that don't pose a threat because even if I took the most homer view of this -- the best I can say is they have a weird and screwed up management system where you never know who is in charge and in turn who is responsible for what.  The buck seems to stop with no one.  If I had to come up with a theme with Bruce's recent media interviews it was he's not the one to be blamed and we shouldn't focus on him.   That seems to be the culture there -- whose to blame and who isn't.   The media seems to be their most convenient whipping boy because they are the ones who reveal from time to time what they seem to want to keep under wraps.  

 

And if the media was so wrong about their operation, then they IMO should go out and explain it clearly for people to follow.  If Bruce is going to have final say you can't also minimize its importance at the same time.  If it was so unimportant, then why not just give up that power?  Cooley who admits he's close to Bruce said a year or so ago that Bruce wouldn't voluntarily give up his power to someone else.  Because why would anyone want to voluntarily give up power?     Cooley in on the conspiracy, too?