General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Had same convo with my Wife, we're pretty much at the better then nothing point on this one.

 

it’s about giving yourself options. When you are carrying, you now have another option. And that’s all it’s about. 

 

1 hour ago, Fergasun said:

I don't get the "better than nothing" logic, but I am biased against being armed.  If you don't have a gun you are getting away from a mass shooter event ASAP.  If you are armed, wouldn't it be tempting to stay? 

so this is a personal opinion, and I have no idea how others would act, and on some level you have to admit that you really don’t know how you would react until you’re in the situation. Best you can do is think about it, and just know who you are, what you’re about, and be comfortable with that. 
 

 

There was a time when I thought I would intervene. I like to think I’m that type of person - the type that springs to action instead of being paralyzed by fear, or simply just choosing flight over fight every time. I’ve never been in the situation with a gun, but I do have a history that backs up fight vs flight (not to be misconstrued to mean *actually* fighting). When crazy **** happens I tend to be the person that springs into action, and in my opinion I tend to be the person thinking clearly. I, personally, can’t stand people who are paralyzed by fear - get over yourself and be productive. Car accidents - I’m the one that stops and runs over and starts checking on people. I actually carry a window breaking tool that has a seatbelt cutter on the other end - in the center console of every car we own.  Fights - I’m the one that runs into them and breaks them up (and yeah I’ve been hurt doing that before.) 

it certainly helps that I’ve had some training in being a first responder. It also helps that I’ve done it enough, that it’s a natural reaction at this point. In fact, a common thought is something like “****, better do something about this cause none of the other people will do a damn thing”

 

But When it comes to mass shooting i decided a long time ago I’m not doing anything other than whatever is necessary for my family and me in that moment. Which would hopefully be to just flee. The liberals mock us that carry - it’s your right to, you think we all want to be Rambo, and generally you’re just complete jerks on the topic. So **** off, I’m not risking anything for you. That includes being accidentally shot by the cops. 
 

there’s no way I’d shoot at someone with a rifle on a roof, if I have a handgun. That’s just so dumb. Low odds of success and high odds of accidentally hitting someone else. Just run. 
 

if it’s right in front of me - sure. 
 

but if it’s obviously dumb (like roof situation), or if fleeing is available, then fleeing it is. 
 

the only time I’d go against that is if I knew I had a family member “in” the mix. Say we’re in a store and separated when it starts. I’m not running out the exit and wishing good luck to my wife and kid in a different department. I’m going in for them, whatever that winds up meaning. And I accept the odds of success are low and a police officer may shoot me - and I don’t give a ****. I’d never be able to live with myself if they died and I just skipped out the exit. Never. 

 

 

55 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I think having a gun in the house with kids significantly raises the likelihood of someone you love getting shot much more than it lowers it, unless (and probably even including) you are willing to take hours and hours and months and months of training with the gun. 

I disagree with the idea it takes hours and hours and months and months of training. It is always a risk. And yes stats show it is more likely than successfully defending against a home invasion (or whatever)

 

but stats also show most people suck and are stupid. And many of these incidents involve people not doing basic and proper safety. 
 

and I like my chances against those statistics. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by tshile

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I think having a gun in the house with kids significantly raises the likelihood of someone you love getting shot much more than it lowers it, unless (and probably even including) you are willing to take hours and hours and months and months of training with the gun. 

 

Agreed, there's a training center in VA Beach I intend to go to because it seems better then anything in DC area beyond jus basic training for concealed carry permit. 

 

Thankfully I have friends with guns that drop sage advice like only cleaning the gun when the kids are out the house that might not be in that training. 

[tshile]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Thankfully I have friends with guns that drop sage advice like only cleaning the gun when the kids are out the house that might not be in that training. 

Whatever you get for storage, get a locked cabinet for your ammo. 
 

keeping the separate with kids in the house is smart. But also, in a fire, heat can cause the ammo to go off. So you don’t want it stored in the same safe. 
 

there’s other things you can do too. But you have to realize that safety is a trade off vs ease of access. For instance I use trigger locks ( the corded  type the drop through the chamber/receiver area) on them even though they’re also in a safe. But yeah if someone breaks into my house I’m sort of screwed with those. But it’s a trade off. 
 

you can also do things like removing firing pins (like on a Ar-15). 
 

**never** underestimate a child’s ability to “figure out” how to make a gun go bang. 
 

any trade off in favor of safety is at least worth considering. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by tshile

[Renegade7]

@tshile

 

Maybe I'm just new to this and overthinking, but when I see the available courses here, it hits home to me the need to not jus stop with bare minimum training to get concealed.

 

https://freedomshootingcenter.com/classes/

 

This isn't even including the amount of practice to get better and not get rusty from accuracy standpoint.

 

 

OT to no one in particular, but saw addressed somewhere, I really don't like mixing Mass Shooting with overall gun violence, there are defiently different parts of the country that have high risk from stray bullets then others, even for folks in their homes. 

 

My sister lives in Chicago and debated going on the roof for 4th of July because of number of people in the city that shoot their guns straight in the air (people should go to jail for that if they don't already).

 

And I agree it does seem a lot of folks doing these non-random shootings (like what happened at Tysons and Potomac Mills recently) can't aim for **** because they showing off too much. That never seems to be the case for these folks doing the intentional lone wolf mass murders from what I can tell.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Renegade7

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

Maybe I'm just new to this and overturning, but when I see the available courses here, it hits home to me the need to not jus stop with bare minimum training to get concealed.

I’m never going to advocate for less training and practice. Never. 
 

I mean if I was in charge of concealed carry laws I’d require a qualification session yearly to keep it active and in good standing. 
 

You need to do what makes you fe comfortable and what you feel like is advancing your safety and skill. 
 

I was also raised on guns. So I do have hours and hours and months and months of it. It’s just spread out over 30 years. I mean my son got a BB gun for his 7th birthday from his grandfather. Way too young in my opinion but that’s the type of family and people I grew up with. And yes - we’re practicing it safely. 
 

Most people in my life are/were law enforcement or military; some both. To me guns are tools and nothing more. To me it’s important that people know a lot of about guns and have hands on experience, the same way it’s important to me that parents teach their children how to swim. 
 

I realize that rubs people the wrong way. It’s fine. They can do things the way they want. 

[tshile]

@Renegade7

look I realize I’ll sound like a nut. But I’m just sharing the info because you’ve made it clear you’re at least thinking and interested in the general topic/idea. 
 

once you’re comfortable with the basics (and can meet prerequisites) you should look at the tactical training stuff. I believe you’re in VA. There’s plenty out in Culpepper, Fromt Royal, Winchester, Orange, etc. Places that still have farmland

 

and I realize it sounds like wanna-be seal team member bull****, but there’s a lot of little things you learn that make total sense and stick with you - once someone actually explains it. 
 

Things like understanding that if you’re hiding behind a car, you’re better off popping up over the the top of the car (hood, roof, trunk, whatever) than coming around the side. People expect you to come around the side. They’re looking for it. They’re not expecting you to pop up over the top. And if you’re returning fire on someone you need every advantage you can get, regardless of how minor it appears. 
 

things like understand windshields are curved and at an angle and that affects the trajectory of the bullet. If you aim at someone directly through a windshield - you’re gonna miss. There’s a very specific way to aim to make sure that bullet goes where you want. 
 

There’s even a whole thing on understanding people with aggressive postures and actions and learning how to be aware of your surroundings. 

things like understanding the importance of moving about (you know why cops tell suspects to face away during a felony road side stop? Cause they’re all constantly changing positions while interacting with the suspect so the suspect has no idea where the officers are, making it harder for the suspect to just turn around and accurately hit them if they pul a gun. They don’t want the suspect to see their movements and where they are. They want them confused about how many officers there are, and where they are. This tactic alone not only can save them if the suspect decides to make a move - but the confusion has a solid chance of preventing a suspect from even trying to make a move because they’re confused and not comfortable with their chances)

 

most people struggle to hit a target reasonable distance out with a handgun when they’re not moving and the target is t moving. Getting trained in how to advance on a target and when to shoot, how to shoot, when to take cover and how, when to reload and how… none of it is hard but it requires being taught. And it requires practice. 

As long as you’re willing to spend the time and money, and you feel like you’re getting something out of it, I say do it. You might actually realize you have fun doing it and enjoy understanding it

 

 

the pleasant side effect is afterwards you’ll easily spot just how full of garbage most tv shows and movies are 😂 

Edited July 6, 2022 by tshile

[Llevron]

I don't really want a gun at all. At this point I just feel like I'm getting less safe, not more. And the government is doing nothing to help me. And since that dude drove to a black neighborhood in NY just to shoot up black people, I do worry about being out someplace just living my life and this happens. But worse than that, now that basically everyone can conceal carry in MD, I feel like if one of these crazy ****ers I live near could be armed and if they are and I am not I'm at a disadvantage. 

 

I don't know. I don't know how some of you can walk around with your families and not be worried the worst could happen. I do look over my shoulder in public. Especially when I have the little girl with me. Mfers are crazy. And now they are armed. 

 

Same time, I know as a large black male that having a gun makes me an easy mistake for PGCPD so.... I dunno. I'm stressed about it tbh.

[The Sisko]

46 minutes ago, tshile said:

it’s about giving yourself options. When you are carrying, you now have another option. And that’s all it’s about. 

 

so this is a personal opinion, and I have no idea how others would act, and on some level you have to admit that you really don’t know how you would react until you’re in the situation. Best you can do is think about it, and just know who you are, what you’re about, and be comfortable with that. 
 

 

There was a time when I thought I would intervene. I like to think I’m that type of person - the type that springs to action instead of being paralyzed by fear, or simply just choosing flight over fight every time. I’ve never been in the situation with a gun, but I do have a history that backs up fight vs flight (not to be misconstrued to mean *actually* fighting). When crazy **** happens I tend to be the person that springs into action, and in my opinion I tend to be the person thinking clearly. I, personally, can’t stand people who are paralyzed by fear - get over yourself and be productive. Car accidents - I’m the one that stops and runs over and starts checking on people. I actually carry a window breaking tool that has a seatbelt cutter on the other end - in the center console of every car we own.  Fights - I’m the one that runs into them and breaks them up (and yeah I’ve been hurt doing that before.) 

it certainly helps that I’ve had some training in being a first responder. It also helps that I’ve done it enough, that it’s a natural reaction at this point. In fact, a common thought is something like “****, better do something about this cause none of the other people will do a damn thing”

 

But When it comes to mass shooting i decided a long time ago I’m not doing anything other than whatever is necessary for my family and me in that moment. Which would hopefully be to just flee. The liberals mock us that carry - it’s your right to, you think we all want to be Rambo, and generally you’re just complete jerks on the topic. So **** off, I’m not risking anything for you. That includes being accidentally shot by the cops. 
 

there’s no way I’d shoot at someone with a rifle on a roof, if I have a handgun. That’s just so dumb. Low odds of success and high odds of accidentally hitting someone else. Just run. 
 

if it’s right in front of me - sure. 
 

but if it’s obviously dumb (like roof situation), or if fleeing is available, then fleeing it is.

I've said before that it's never even crossed my mind to try to stop an active shooter situation with my little concealed carry pop gun. I'm pretty accurate, but absent a no risk, can't miss shot, I'm not going up against some guy with body armor and a semi-auto "assault weapon" unless it's a last resort to save myself or loved ones. All one gets for taking a risk like that is the possibility of being shot by the cops (especially as a black man) and/or getting paraded around as a propaganda piece by the NRA and gun lobby as the perfect example of a "good guy with a gun." Eff that.

[purbeast]

I don't know if I saw it in this thread or another forum, but there are multiple studies done and statistics to back it up that households with guns in them have a higher chance of deaths in the household than those without.  

 

We as a country need to get over this stupid ass thought that the solution to ANY of this is "moar guns" because it is the exact opposite of that.

 

EDIT:

 

Found one.

 

Guns in the house double your risk of being killed, triples the risk of suicide.

 

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M13-1301

Edited July 6, 2022 by purbeast

[tshile]

It’s been a while but if I recall correctly from the last time I was into the topic (for whatever reason) -  most self defense situations end in less than 30 seconds and 3 shots or less fired. 
 

there’s not a lot of time to think things out. You fall back on what you practice. 
 

so practice as if you’re gonna have to make some very serious decisions very quickly and without warning. 
 

You also have to realize, if you start carrying a gun, that one option is you use it when you think it’s justified - and the police, prosecutor, and jury disagree. Maybe there was an important detail you missed. Maybe it’s an over zealous prosecutor trying to make a name on a case that’s caught the publics attention. Maybe there just isn’t enough proof to show you were justified (for whatever reason), but enough to show you maybe we’re not. 
 

my mentality has always been - if I’m going to use my gun then I need to be comfortable spending the rest of my life in jail, even if I believe I was correct. So whatever it is I’m getting involved in - better be worth that potential outcome. 
 

and honestly - thinking of things like that, there’s a hell of a lot of things you realize aren’t worth your time. I’ve definitely walked away from situations where in the past i’d jaw back or whatever. But instead walk away just thinking how stupid that guy is cause he has no idea you’re carrying .45 and starting a fight over feeling like you were cut off really wasn’t all that smart. 

also teaches you to not give a **** about the slights of others - cause they may have a gun. 😂 
 

I was involved in two separate road rage incidents. I do not believe I did anything wrong at the time. And I got myself out of those situations in a way that made me look like a **** to them, cause they wanted to fight. But I was carrying a gun. And I had no desire to even attempt to interact with them. One of them I was on the phone with the sheriff’s office while the person were chasing me down the highway, explaining to the dispatcher that I had a gun and didn’t think stopping to try to resolve the situation was a good idea, and that a sheriffs deputy needs to be involved. 
 

It’s definitely a different way to go about life. It’s a serious thing, carrying around a gun. It’ll change the decisions you make. I’m not convinced this is a bad thing. Given adult males willingness (including myself) to go “oh yeah? Let’s go mothe****er” 😂 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

 

I disagree with the idea it takes hours and hours and months and months of training. It is always a risk. And yes stats show it is more likely than successfully defending against a home invasion (or whatever)

 

but stats also show most people suck and are stupid. And many of these incidents involve people not doing basic and proper safety. 
 

and I like my chances against those statistics. 

If a few paragraphs ever exampled the Dunning–Kruger effect…. 

[Captain Wiggles]

12 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I don't know if I saw it in this thread or another forum, but there are multiple studies done and statistics to back it up that households with guns in them have a higher chance of deaths in the household than those without.  

 

 

Gun owners are more likely to kill a family member than an intruder. Like ya said guns make everything more the dangerous not safer and for whatever reasons people for the most part seem unwilling to accept that.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/

 

Quote

Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

 

[tshile]

14 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I don't know if I saw it in this thread or another forum, but there are multiple studies done and statistics to back it up that households with guns in them have a higher chance of deaths in the household than those without.  

 

We as a country need to get over this stupid ass thought that the solution to ANY of this is "moar guns" because it is the exact opposite of that.

 

EDIT:

 

Found one.

 

Guns in the house double your risk of being killed, triples the risk of suicide.

 

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M13-1301

Yup. But agains - what statics are we talking about?

 

people that leave loaded guns lying around?

 

im not worried about that. I wish we had statistics that specifically honed in on:

- family members shot on accident during a home invasion (or other similar incident)

- accidental shootings/deaths involving property stored firearms. 
 

Cause those two would apply to me. 
 

dude who left the .22 loaded in the corner because they “forgot” and their 8 year old killed their 4 year old, isn’t really applicable to me when considering the risks of owning a gun. It just isn’t. 
 

I recall having an argument on here years back (2008-2016 sometime), where the idea was concealed carry is bad because these people shoot and kill people. Or threaten people. That they were part of the problem, and as such shouldn’t be allowed. 
 

And I recall looking up the stats. Virginia’s concealed permit process includes having your permit revoked if you’re involved in anything involving drugs, domestic violence, or gun violence. The revocation rate was 0.03%. Meaning, So long as you believe Virginia is sticking to enforcing their laws correctly, no, concealed permit holders are not part of the problem. 
 

if they were, the revocation rate would be significantly higher. 

[JCB]

Sage words from a great political theorist:

 

Bonnie Honig

 

@bonnie_honig

 

Public things (spaces/events/parades/statuary et ) put us alongside each other, cheek by jowl, and we may find, through encounters they stage, the pleasure and power of concerted action that are democracy’s fuel. Random shootings disable democratic forms of life: #publicthings

[tshile]

10 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

If a few paragraphs ever exampled the Dunning–Kruger effect…. 

I know you’re trying desperately to do what is done to you so often, but it doesn’t work when you strip out all the context. Do better next time. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Sheesh.

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

I wonder who keeps, since 1996, gun stats from being investigated in further detail by the CDC? 🤔

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

I wonder who keeps, since 1996, gun stats from being investigated in further detail by the CDC? 🤔

NRA and republicans. 
 

they also strictly limited the ATF’s abilities, not just as a matter of policy, but also their ability to have funding to staff appropriately. And to appoint an official director. 
 

Stats on gun violence and other gun related things are not just super basic and hard to extra meaning because people are just trying to push an anti-gun agenda (which certainly does exist, see: the lumping of suicides into the numbers), they’re also that way because the NRA and republicans have specifically pushed agendas to make them super basic and hard to extract meaning from. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by tshile

[Corcaigh]

@tshile of course, properly stored firearms are a much smaller risk than those left loaded and lying around. But there are examples of trained users (a police officer in Winchester VA was one recent one I recall) shooting his teenage daughter who was attempting to sneak into the home at night without disturbing anyone, police officers managing to shoot themselves while cleaning a weapon,  and another in Sterling where a man killed a drunk neighbor kid entering his home by mistake.

 

And, speaking personally, I don’t know for certain if having a gun in our home might have had catastrophic consequences when a family member was depressed or very upset.

 

Here’s the local police officer story:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/deputy-shoots-daughter-he-mistakes-for-intruder-officials/2014/08/14/a1015996-23f5-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html

Edited July 6, 2022 by Corcaigh

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

@tshile of course, probably stored firearms are a much smaller risk than those left loaded and lying around. But there are examples of trained users (a police officer in Loudoun was one recent one I recall) shooting a family member who was attempting to sneak into the home at night without disturbing anyone, police officers managing to shoot themselves while cleaning a weapon,  and another in Sterling where a man killed a drunk neighbor kid entering his home by mistake.

 

And, speaking personally, I don’t know for certain if having a gun in our home might have had catastrophic consequences when a family member was depressed or very upset.

 

 

yeah I don’t mean to imply that no one should think about these things or that they don’t matter. 
 

it’s just that the statistics are basic (by design) and their use is often eyeroll worthy. 
 

and I’m not advocating for or against any policy ideas. 
 

just throwing my thoughts into the conversation is all. 
 

and each person has the responsibility on this decision; and if they decide to own guns, it is a heavy responsibility that needs to be treated as such. 
 

I’m against using these statistics the way they are often used. But I greatly appreciate the general concerns and reservations about it all. 
 

these are not things that I have personally ignored, or do not think about constantly. 
 

And as my children get older… the concern grows. 
 

but again - I was raised that guns are tools. Nothing more, nothing less. I’m more concerned my son may go play with my chainsaws or my tractor or get into my alcohol. Or the axes. Or take our keys to our vehicles. Cause the guns are **significantly** more secure than any of those. 

[Corcaigh]

For me it’s about risks. If I thought there was a significant risk of our home being invaded in spite of our security (and dogs), I think I’d move somewhere safer, because the risks of accidents by having guns in the home are not zero.

 

And it’s not fear of guns or disagreement with their existence on principle, if I thought having a moat around my house with crocodiles would make me safer, I would do it. But I expect a family member is much more likely to be crocodile food than an adversary.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

And now they are armed. 

They’ve always been armed.  I’m sure it’s been brought up and argued about ad nauseam, but bad guys don’t usually care about laws all that much, and pretty much just do what they want- like carry firearms on the reg.

 

I’m not discounting your fear for what can happen, as I feel the same way.  Folks are crazy across all demographics.  

[CousinsCowgirl84]

35 minutes ago, tshile said:

I know you’re trying desperately to do what is done to you so often, but it doesn’t work when you strip out all the context. Do better next time. 

No way. 
 

“you don’t have to have a lot of training to handle a gun safely” “everyone else is dumb I can definitely handle a gun safely” reminded me exactly of the dunning Kruger effect….

[PleaseBlitz]

Every gun owner is a perfectly responsible gun owner if you ask them.  All the studies indicate that many of them are not what they claim to be. 

39 minutes ago, tshile said:

I know you’re trying desperately to do what is done to you so often, but it doesn’t work when you strip out all the context. Do better next time. 

 

You are the last person on this forum that should admonish people for stripping out context.  

[China]

Seems like this conversation needs to switch to the Gun Control thread.