General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)

[TheGreatBuzz]

57 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I've not heard anyone say it has never happened.

 

I've heard a ton of people say relying on it instead of gun control and thinking we need to put more guns in the hands of the public is an asinine solution. Which it is.

 

I'm not advocating for the "good guy" as a replacement for common sense gun control.  But, as a general statement that rings true here I believe, is that when a good guy does work out, it doesn't get much talk here.  I believe a well- armed, trained, and vetted part of the population (in addition to police, etc) can be A tool against mass shooters.

[Larry]

37 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

I've not heard anyone say it has never happened.

 

I've heard a ton of people say relying on it instead of gun control and thinking we need to put more guns in the hands of the public is an asinine solution. Which it is.

 

My perspective on the "Good Guy With a Gun" talking point, especially when it comes to schools, is a bit more subtle.  

 

Numbers I can find say that in 2021, there were 93 school shootings.  And there are 131K K-12 schools in the US.  

 

That means, if you wanted to have one "good guy with a gun", at one of those 93 school shootings, you'd have to put guns in around 1,400 schools.  Just so you can have one "good guy with a gun, at one of those shootings.  

 

Put what, two guns each in 1,400 schools?  

 

How many shootings do that many guns, in that many schools, cause?  How many mistaken identities, accidental discharges, people losing their temper, kids experimenting with one that they found, or all the other things that guns can do to change a life situation into a potentially lethal one?  

 

I think if you put guns in 1,400 schools, you wind up doing more harm than "good guy with a gun" prevents.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

My perspective on the "Good Guy With a Gun" talking point, especially when it comes to schools, is a bit more subtle.  

 

Numbers I can find say that in 2021, there were 93 school shootings.  And there are 131K K-12 schools in the US.  

 

That means, if you wanted to have one "good guy with a gun", at one of those 93 school shootings, you'd have to put guns in around 1,400 schools.  Just so you can have one "good guy with a gun, at one of those shootings.  

 

Put what, two guns each in 1,400 schools?  

 

How many shootings do that many guns, in that many schools, cause?  How many mistaken identities, accidental discharges, people losing their temper, kids experimenting with one that they found, or all the other things that guns can do to change a life situation into a potentially lethal one?  

 

I think if you put guns in 1,400 schools, you wind up doing more harm than "good guy with a gun" prevents.  

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

31 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

My perspective on the "Good Guy With a Gun" talking point, especially when it comes to schools, is a bit more subtle.  

 

Numbers I can find say that in 2021, there were 93 school shootings.  And there are 131K K-12 schools in the US.  

 

That means, if you wanted to have one "good guy with a gun", at one of those 93 school shootings, you'd have to put guns in around 1,400 schools.  Just so you can have one "good guy with a gun, at one of those shootings.  

 

Put what, two guns each in 1,400 schools?  

 

How many shootings do that many guns, in that many schools, cause?  How many mistaken identities, accidental discharges, people losing their temper, kids experimenting with one that they found, or all the other things that guns can do to change a life situation into a potentially lethal one?  

 

I think if you put guns in 1,400 schools, you wind up doing more harm than "good guy with a gun" prevents.  

 

I don't believe I have ever advocated arming teachers/staff or adding a bunch more guns to schools.  

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

I don't believe I have ever advocated arming teachers/staff or adding a bunch more guns to schools.  

That’s not really the point. The point is that for good guy with a gun to be remotely useful in responding to mass shootings there would need to be so many people with guns the bad from accidents would put way any positive impact.

Edited July 20, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

The point is that for good guy with a gun to be remotely useful in responding to mass shootings

 

Maybe you should ask some of the survivors of the mall shooting if a person proficient with a handgun can be remotely useful.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

3 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Maybe you should ask some of the survivors of the mall shooting if a person proficient with a handgun can be remotely useful.

I’ll ask the winner of the mega millions jackpot if playing the lottery is worth it while I’m at it.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

51 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Maybe you should ask some of the survivors of the mall shooting if a person proficient with a handgun can be remotely useful.

Also seems pretty callous to first consider how survivors feel over how the families of those who didn’t survive feel. Intentionally or not you glossed over the fact that the best case scenario for a good guy with a gun is leaving four people dead.

 

Perhaps you should ask the families of the people that didn’t get lucky what they think about more guns over gun control. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[TheGreatBuzz]

33 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Also seems pretty callous to first consider how survivors feel over how the families of those who didn’t survive feel. Intentionally or not you glossed over the fact that the best case scenario for a good guy with a gun is leaving four people dead.

 

Perhaps you should ask the families of the people that didn’t get lucky what they think about more guns over gun control. 

 

I've come to accept that mass shootings are here to stay.  Best we can do now is limit the body count.  Notice I originally caveated "well trained and vetted" people.  And I also didn't advocate for "more guns". 

 

I think you don't have an understanding of the history of my position on gun control.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

15 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

I've come to accept that mass shootings are here to stay.  Best we can do now is limit the body count.  Notice I originally caveated "well trained and vetted" people. 

 

 We already supposedly have a well trained and vetted group of people.  They are called the  police. Yet time and time again it is exposed how untrained and ill vetted they are.  If we can’t get that sorted how realistic is it we can do it for a civilian volunteer gun club?

 

15 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

And I also didn't advocate for "more guns". 

 

 

Then we are back to you missing the point earlier.  If “a good guy with a gun” is going to be effective and stoping mass shooters we will need a lot more good guys with more guns. 
 

15 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

I think you don't have an understanding of the history of my position on gun control.

 

Of course. I can only respond to the arguments you are currently making. I can’t see into your soul, yet.

Edited July 20, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

We already supposedly have a well trained and vetted group of people.  They are called the  police. Yet time and time again it is exposed how untrained and ill vetted they are.  If we can’t get that sorted how realistic is it we can do it for a civilian volunteer gun club?

 

Go back and read and you’ll see I said in addition to the police.  And I would imagine that statistically, the civilians with guns would interact with a mass shooting at a far less rate than police being put in positions to use their weapons.  But you can require a certain level of training for these civilians and hope one of them are around when another mass shooting happens as a last ditch effort to limit casualties.  Again, it could be A tool, not THE tool.

 

7 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Then we are back to you missing the point earlier.  If “a good guy with a gun” is going to be effective and stoping mass shooters we will need a lot more good guys with more guns. 

 

Again, A tool, not THE tool.

 

8 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Of course. I can only respond to the arguments you are currently making. I can’t see into your soul, yet.

 

Maybe you aren’t aware but a quick search here will show you every post I have ever made in this thread.  Happy Reading!!

[CousinsCowgirl84]

13 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Go back and read and you’ll see I said in addition to the police.

 

That are well vetted and trained. So my question is if we can’t train and vet police how do you expect to train and vet this gun club you are adamant about?

 

13 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

 

 

Again, A tool, not THE tool.

 

I already agree it is a tool. But it’s not a good tool. That’s the problem.  If the tool is likely to cause as many problems (in this case more problems) as it solved what is the point?

 

Like, for example opioids are a tool that manages pain very effectively but they aren’t a great tool for a variety of reasons. Eventually they lead to addiction and death for a lot of people.
 

13 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

 

Maybe you aren’t aware but a quick search here will show you every post I have ever made in this thread.  Happy Reading!!

I’m only responding to the bad argument you are making now. I didn’t accuse you of being a gun nut or a 2nd amendment absolutist.

Edited July 20, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[TheGreatBuzz]

23 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

That are well vetted and trained. So my question is if we can’t train and vet police how do you expect to train and vet this gun club you are adamant about

 

Well I just posted in another thread but ideally that would be up to the states.  But they can come up with so.e general standards and civilian led schools can administer classes. Several other states have this already in place.

26 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I already agree it is a tool. But it’s not a good tool. That’s the problem.  If the tool is likely to cause as many problems (in this case more problems) as it solved what is the point?

 

Like, for example opioids are a tool that manages pain very effectively but they aren’t a great tool for a variety of reasons. Eventually they lead to addiction and death for a lot of people.

 

But it can be a helpful tool if used properly.  A hammer can be quite useful unless you are trying to saw a board in half.  And opiods have helped many people also, myself included.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 hours ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Maybe you should ask some of the survivors of the mall shooting if a person proficient with a handgun can be remotely useful.

 

Maybe we should ask the families of the victims in Uvalde if armed policemen can be remotely useful.

 

You probably didn't watch the video I posted, but FBI statistics several years ago showed that 20% of the time a "good guy" stopped a mass shooter...and overwhelmingly the "good guy" was unarmed. The stats showed that 3% of the time the shooters were stopped by an armed "good guy". The point being, bringing up the "good guy with a gun" at the mall shooting as anything other than an anomaly is a waste of time, which is probably why very few people go out of their way to talk about it other than in passing.

 

There was one guy who stopped a potential school shooter by talking to him and giving a hug, then disarming him. It's a great story but plays absolutely no role in the discussion on what to do about gun violence and mass shootings in the USA, so it doesn't surprise me if nobody really brings it up.

[Larry]

Just observing. 
 

This thread is for discussing the mass murder of the day. 
 

There's another thread for discussing the obvious method of reducing them. 

[China]

On the heels of this:

 

The Buffalo supermarket shooter pleads not guilty to federal charges

 

The white gunman charged with killing 10 Black people in a racist mass shooting at a Buffalo supermarket pleaded not guilty Monday to federal hate crime charges that could be punishable by the death penalty.

 

Click on the link for the full article

 

We have this:

 

Man accused of threats to shoot Buffalo grocery customers

 

A suburban Seattle man has been arrested and accused of threatening to shoot Black customers at a grocery store in Buffalo, New York, according to a criminal complaint filed in U.S. District Court.

 

Joey George, 37, is charged with making interstate threats and is scheduled to appear in court Friday afternoon, The Seattle Times reported.

 

George phoned a Buffalo grocery store twice in July threatening to shoot Black people in the store and ranting about a “race war,” the complaint said.

 

On May 14, a shooter killed 10 Black people and hurt several others at Tops Friendly Supermarket in Buffalo. A 19-year-old white man with ties to white supremacy has pleaded not guilty to federal hate crime charges.

 

George did not call the same store but referenced it in his threat, prosecutors said.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[China]

Man armed with semi-automatic rifle arrested in Topeka Walmart parking lot

 

A man armed with a semi-automatic rifle was arrested just prior to entering a Walmart on Friday by Shawnee County deputies.

 

According to the Shawnee County Sheriff’s Office, detectives and patrol deputies were executing a search warrant and an attempt to locate on Dahlkestiere D. Eichelberger, 45, of Topeka on July 22, 2022. This was being done in relation to a criminal threat investigation. He was later found walking in a Walmart parking lot around 6 p.m. at 2600 Rochester Rd.

 

Deputies took Eichelberger into custody before he could enter the store without issue. He was in possession of a short barrel semi-automatic rifle and ammunition. The rifle was concealed beneath his clothes on a sling.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[TradeTheBeal!]

Mr Eichelberger has quite a Facebook page.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[purbeast]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:09 PM, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Maybe you should ask some of the survivors of the mall shooting if a person proficient with a handgun can be remotely useful.

Maybe you should ask some of the family of the dead if not having the AR-15 in the first place would have been remotely useful.

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 minute ago, purbeast said:

Maybe you should ask some of the family of the dead if not having the AR-15 in the first place would have been remotely useful.

 

Only one of our options actually have a remote chance in hell of happening.  And it isn't yours.

[purbeast]

1 minute ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Only one of our options actually have a remote chance in hell of happening.  And it isn't yours.

Not true at all. 

 

Stronger background checks and a older age limit of allowing you to purchase an AR-15 could have easily prevented this lunatic from ever having one in his posession.

[TradeTheBeal!]

7 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Only one of our options actually have a remote chance in hell of happening.  And it isn't yours.

Weird flex considering countries all over the world with reasonable gun control have nearly no gun violence compared to the states and meanwhile this latest good guy bull**** you keep hyping ended up with 4 corpses.

 

 

[purbeast]

1 minute ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Weird flex considering countries all over the world with reasonable gun control have nearly no gun violence compared to the states and meanwhile this latest good guy bull**** you keep hyping ended up with 4 corpses.

 

 

I mean I get what he's saying if he was thinking I was talking about banning/removing all guns, which I didn't say, but is what people love to assume is the only solution and don't think it will work so they don't want to take any measures.

 

Logistically that would be tough to do and our country is full of selfish assholes that don't care about the greater good so they'd never give their guns up.  Oh, and you also have one of the 2 parties glorifying guns on a daily basis who have the NRA in their pocket, meaning that they don't want to get rid of all guns.