General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

They might have been able to do something, but that window sounds like it was very small.

 

Something is better then nothing.

 

I went off last night about the idea of buying seconds with respect "good guy with the gun being a speed bump", imagine if the school had a 15-30 minutes heads up instead.

 

Coulda immediately gone into lockdown like a bomb threat, something, right???

 

Edit: Facebook has the IP of every device we log in from, I know because I've seem my own list via a data request.  Even if they didn't know which school, it's a rural area with limited number of schools and his location where he made the post, that's a helluva a lot more then what it sounds like the schools had before this happened.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Renegade7

[Destino]

[PeterMP]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

That really shouldn't abdicate Meta from responsibility either.   Stuff like their child sex trafficking recruitment issues shouldn't be protected under the guise of privacy, and neither should this.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/06/facebook-is-a-hub-of-sex-trafficking-recruitment-in-the-us-report-says/%3famp=1

 

I think laws regarding the internet should be much more strict.

 

But to me this gets very hard.  If you go after meta for a PM sent between two people within an hour of something happening, then that's a massive change.  What if he'd text her or e-mailed her?

 

Does google become accountable for the contents of every e-mail that's sent through gmail?
 

Is Apple accountable for the contents of every text sent to or from an iPhone or the cell providers for every text sent via their networks?

 

You'd end up greatly restricting any and all modern forms of communication.

 

I've got no problem with telling Meta they need to hire a lot more people to moderate content or to find a better way to do with AI.  But looking at messages between people in that short of a period of time for the whole world on every possible network is something else.

Edited May 25, 2022 by PeterMP

[Simmsy]

2 hours ago, CobraCommander said:

Beto Orourke is going HAM right now

 

He might just have a chance, it cost 19 children their lives, but they're brown children...so whatever 3/5ths of what that is I guess...

 

I know I should take this more seriously, but I can't. I watched a school shooting live on tv when I came home from school when I was 14 years old. That was Columbine, nothing has changed. You're asking the same people who wanted to send their children into a petri dish (school building), during a pandemic because they didn't want to deal with them. They've watched their own children (they're not all white, but come on, they're mostly white) mowed down and have done nothing about it to this day. Do you think they're going to do something for a bunch of "Mexicans"? A bunch of people they don't want here anyways? You're wasting your time. I don't need to see anymore news segments, I don't need to hear anymore speeches. ****ing do something.

 

Also, I'm calling it now, how much do you want to bet that the GOP will try to hold up this border agent as a hero AND as a reason they're not racist. Stay tuned, ladies and gents.

[zCommander]

I really try to stay away from news. I don't go to any website like CNN to see what is happening. Just got tired of seeing **** like this.

 

Not sure if this has come out or already been discussed  but the shooter was engaged by law enforcement outside of the school before he found a way in - how the **** does this even happen? These law enforcement individual were not aggress enough or maybe they were scared of dying themselves?

 

This other thing really disgust me is that a friend gets a text with all his ammo and then friend asks what you going to do with it and the shooter replies back don't worry about it. That friend should have been worried and should have called the police - this friend - has he been living under a rock to not know to report your friend with that kind and amount of ammo?

 

Out of 7 billions people on earth and it seems like this only happens to US schools. 😑

 

 

[tshile]

You know @PeterMPi tend to want to agree with you. 
 

but if Google wanted to do that so that they can target you on your next Google search based on what you were just talking about, they would. And according to some people, and what I see, it kind of looks like they already do. 
 

And Microsoft will do the same thing to you with your computer and outlook.com email and bing searches. 
 

and Amazon does it too on its own level. 
 

and Facebook definitely is doing that on some level too. 
 

but. There is no money to be made by being a good citizen. So …

I mean realistically data mining is out of control about what is collected and used. 
 

stocks plummet on breaking news. To the point where some carelessly worded trending Twitter topics can cause a sell off that it shouldn’t. 
 

and the issue isn’t that they must stop all of these now. The issue is that they aren’t even trying. 
 

the same people that can passively parse your spoken words (when you don’t even realize you’re being listened to) to make sure your next spotify commercial targets you in real time, will complain that asking them to look out for people talking about terrorist actions because regulation and government and omg we’ll be poor. 
 

it’s garbage and we all know it. They choose not to do more. And their decision would be different if they got paid to do it. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by tshile

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

I think laws regarding the internet should be much more strict.

 

But to me this gets very hard.  If you go after meta for a PM sent between two people within an hour of something happening, then that's a massive change.  What if he'd text her or e-mailed her?

 

Does google become accountable for the contents of every e-mail that's sent through gmail?
 

Is Apple accountable for the contents of every text sent to or from an iPhone or the cell providers for every text sent via their networks?

 

You'd end up greatly restricting any and all modern forms of communication.

 

Fair, we could quickly end up back in the PRISM days. What I would say is to start with social media platforms and websites because that seems to be the vast majority of where the radicalization, recruitment, and pre-carnage manifestos are being found.

 

I'm unfortunately not buying the government isn't working something out with Gmail and the cellphone carriers still concerning trying to stay ahead of Islamic extremist trying to commit attacks in the US even though PRISM is allegedly shut down now.

 

I'm not ready to hold Apple responsible for communications the cell phone carriers and ISP are helping transmit.  Appstore apps are a different question, more fair game.

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Something is better then nothing.

 

I went off last night about the idea of buying seconds with respect "good guy with the gun being a speed bump", imagine if the school had a 15-30 minutes heads up instead.

 

Coulda immediately gone into lockdown like a bomb threat, something, right???

 

Edit: Facebook had the IP of every device we log in from, I know because I've seem my own list via a data request.  Even if they didn't know which school, it's a rural area with limited number of schools and his location where he made the post, that's a helluva a lot more then what it sounds like the schools had before this happened.

 

I don't disagree but this is also easier said than done. The sheer amount of data makes flagging something like this and acting on it in such a short amount of time very difficult, unless you train your ML algorithms to be super duper twitchy and immediately alert authorities about any possible suspicious or dangerous post...which would then lead to tons of false alarms and people then ignoring most of them.

 

Facebook for example generates something like 4 petabytes of data per day and god knows how many petabytes of data pass through their applications and servers on a daily basis. Flagging a specific post, verifying it's actually dangerous, getting the IP and tracking it down takes time, unless you do what I mentioned above and set up a system to alert authorities at the slightest hint of danger.

 

So I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that even if you wanted to do it, it's very difficult. That doesn't absolve them of responsibility but I also don't think we should assume that they just don't give a **** (they very well may not) and that's why they didn't do anything faster.

[tshile]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

I'm not ready to hold Apple responsible for communications the cell phone carriers and ISP are helping transmit.  Appstore apps are a different question, more fair game.

Most Apple users use iMessage which indeed runs totally over their infrastructure. 
 

In fact there used to be (still may be?) a whole issue with Apple users switching to android, and text messaging not working because sometimes iPhone users texting them wound up sending it through the iMessage infrastructure (not their fault, apples fault) and then being lost in the void cause they don’t just translate into sms and forward to the Android phone 

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't disagree but this is also easier said than done. The sheer amount of data makes flagging something like this and acting on it in such a short amount of time very difficult, unless you train your ML algorithms to be super duper twitchy and immediately alert authorities about any possible suspicious or dangerous post...which would then lead to tons of false alarms and people then ignoring most of them.

 

Facebook for example generates something like 4 petabytes of data per day and god knows how many petabytes of data pass through their applications and servers on a daily basis. Flagging a specific post, verifying it's actually dangerous, getting the IP and tracking it down takes time, unless you do what I mentioned above and set up a system to alert authorities at the slightest hint of danger.

 

So I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that even if you wanted to do it, it's very difficult. That doesn't absolve them of responsibility but I also don't think we should assume that they just don't give a **** (they very well may not) and that's why they didn't do anything faster.

 

Hard or not, the benefits of trying harder outweighs the risks of where we are right now. A requirement change concerning section 230 changes the conversation, the platforms are out of control with respect to their impact on society and saying there's "nothing they can do about it, price of doing business".  Well, price should go up for them then in context of what jus happened today and fact it keeps happening, tough ****, figure it out, invest the resources and figure it out.

3 minutes ago, tshile said:

Most Apple users use iMessage which indeed runs totally over their infrastructure. 
 

In fact there used to be (still may be?) a whole issue with Apple users switching to android, and text messaging not working because sometimes iPhone users texting them wound up sending it through the iMessage infrastructure (not their fault, apples fault) and then being lost in the void cause they don’t just translate into sms and forward to the Android phone 

 

Got it, thanks for the correction.  Having said that, it can't get to and through the Apple servers without going over the ISPs or carrier network first, right?

 

You saying iMessages are being funneled through Apple before getting to their intended destination?

 

Would that make them equally culpable for messages sent over iMessage? I'm game for this convo while acknowledging no silver bullet.

[tshile]

The problem is our legislatures aren’t smart enough to hold them accountable. 
 

you all watched the hearings. The first time around they ran circles around the lawmakers. 
 

the second time the lawmakers were better prepared only because they were publicly humiliated the first time. As far as I know nothing came of that either. 
 

Like most important things, they will only change when constituents votes orient around the issue and outweigh the money on the other side and their ability to win elections. 
 

It could be changed if we actually wanted it to be. But. Like most things, we say we do, but we don’t put in the work to make it happen. 
 

you know who always puts in the work to get what they want?

 

lobbyists. 

[mistertim]

37 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Not sure if this has come out or already been discussed  but the shooter was engaged by law enforcement outside of the school before he found a way in - how the **** does this even happen? These law enforcement individual were not aggress enough or maybe they were scared of dying themselves?

 

 

This is just me guessing, but it was probably a cop with a 9mm pistol (or something along those lines) going against .223 or 5.56 rifle rounds. Really not much comparison and a pistol doesn't have much of a chance against a rifle. Probably not a ton he could do unless he decided to go suicidal and just run at the guy in the hopes of getting close enough to hit him before being gunned down himself.

[The Sisko]

 

51 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't disagree but this is also easier said than done. The sheer amount of data makes flagging something like this and acting on it in such a short amount of time very difficult, unless you train your ML algorithms to be super duper twitchy and immediately alert authorities about any possible suspicious or dangerous post...which would then lead to tons of false alarms and people then ignoring most of them.

 

Facebook for example generates something like 4 petabytes of data per day and god knows how many petabytes of data pass through their applications and servers on a daily basis. Flagging a specific post, verifying it's actually dangerous, getting the IP and tracking it down takes time, unless you do what I mentioned above and set up a system to alert authorities at the slightest hint of danger.

 

So I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that even if you wanted to do it, it's very difficult. That doesn't absolve them of responsibility but I also don't think we should assume that they just don't give a **** (they very well may not) and that's why they didn't do anything faster.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Yes, there is a lot of data involved and yes it probably is extremely difficult. However, Big data has solved a host of difficult problems and has proven very effective at this kind of task. As an example, check out how quickly YouTube removes copyrighted content. Just because such a solution is difficult, expensive and wouldn't be perfect out of the box on day one doesn't mean it's not worth doing. I think the biggest thing they're concerned about is liability. If we really want to find out exactly how capable they are of accomplishing it, take away their immunity from being sued for this kind of content. My money says they'd have something in place toot sweet.

 

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

This is just me guessing, but it was probably a cop with a 9mm pistol (or something along those lines) going against .223 or 5.56 rifle rounds. Really not much comparison and a pistol doesn't have much of a chance against a rifle. Probably not a ton he could do unless he decided to go suicidal and just run at the guy in the hopes of getting close enough to hit him before being gunned down himself.

A lot depends on whether he got the drop on them and the cops were hit immediately, positioning, and a ton of other variables. I'm not at all a fan of cops, but unlike the coward at the school shooting in Florida, they did their freaking jobs, and in heroic fashion. I feel so badly for them that they will probably second guess themselves for the rest of their lives wondering if they could have done something differently to prevent or mitigate what happened.

[The Evil Genius]

So Ramos spent roughly 2k on the 2 guns and who knows how much for 375 rounds...with what money?

 

 

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

 

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Yes, there is a lot of data involved and yes it probably is extremely difficult. However, Big data has solved a host of difficult problems and has proven very effective at this kind of task. As an example, check out how quickly YouTube removes copyrighted content. Just because such a solution is difficult, expensive and wouldn't be perfect out of the box on day one doesn't mean it's not worth doing. I think the biggest thing they're concerned about is liability. If we really want to find out exactly how capable they are of accomplishing it, take away their immunity from being sued for this kind of content. My money says they'd have something in place toot sweet.

 

 

Well, IIRC youtube copyright strikes usually take a day or two to process, because youtube has to verify that it's a legit copyright infringement. Otherwise anyone could just claim copyright on a video they don't like and it would be taken down without the video creator doing anything wrong.

 

Sort of the same issue with trying to automate warnings or even actions for things like this. Even if you built a ML algorithm that was super twitchy and tracked down the IP of anyone posting about guns or pictures of ammo, etc and then alerted local authorities, the local police would still have to do an investigation before taking any action. They can't just bust down the doors of anyone who posts about guns on social media. Billions of people us social media every day and there are probably millions who talk about guns and/or post pictures of them. Are the cops going to raid all of them?

 

Again, I'm not saying I disagree that social media companies should be held more accountable and can do more to try and stop this stuff. I'm just saying that it's very complicated and there'd have to be a lot of balancing acts going on.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quote

 

Ramos is believed to have then abandoned his car outside the school, and headed inside.

On his way in, a school police officers confronted him but did not fire any shots or slow the boy’s advance, allowing him to enter a classroom armed with an AR-15 and barricade himself in.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/salvador-ramos-texas-school-shooting-uvalde-b2087035.html

 

I know especially in the first 24 hours or so after an event like this, there's a lot of pressure on news outlets to be FIRST.  I'm not sure how much I am buying this, but this is the first I've heard that school police officers confronted him or didn't slow him down at all.

 

Quote

An Instagram account identified by news outlets as belonging to Ramos showed him posing with what appears to be a semi-automatic weapon. A former classmate said that Ramos texted him photos of a firearm and a bag full of ammunition days before the attack.

“He would message me here and there, and four days ago he sent me a picture of the AR he was using… and a backpack full of 5.56 rounds, probably like seven mags,” the former classmate said.

“I was like, ‘Bro, why do you have this?’ and he was like, ‘Don’t worry about it’,” the student said. “He proceeded to text me, ‘I look very different now. You wouldn’t recognise me’.”

Texas leaders said on Wednesday that Ramos didn’t have a known criminal or mental health record, and that “there was no meaningful forwarning of his crime” outside of the messages just before the attack, according to Governor Abbott.

 

Former classmate didn't think to report this to anyone?  C'mon man.  

 

Quote

Santos Valdez Jr, 18, told The Washington Post that he had known Ramos since their early days of elementary school, adding that they were friends until Ramos’ behaviour began to grow worse.

They used to play video games together before Ramos changed. Mr Valdez described an encounter when Ramos arrived at a park where they used to play basketball with cuts all over his face, initially saying he had been scratched by a cat.

“Then he told me the truth, that he’d cut up his face with knives over and over and over,” Mr Valdez said. “I was like, ‘You’re crazy, bro, why would you do that?’”

Ramos said he had done it for fun, Mr Valdez noted.

Mocked over stutter and lisp

Friends and family members said Ramos was bullied in middle school and junior high for his stutter and lisp. Considering himself Ramos’ best friend in eighth grade, Stephen Garcia said he had a difficult school experience.

“He would get bullied hard, like bullied by a lot of people,” Mr Garcia told The Washington Post. “Over social media, over gaming, over everything.”

“He was the nicest kid, the most shyest kid. He just needed to break out of his shell,” he added.

Mr Garcia said Ramos once posted a photo of himself with black eyeliner, prompting a large number of comments that included derogatory language levelled at gay people.

Mr Garcia said he tried to defend Ramos, but when he moved to another area of Texas because of his mother’s job, Ramos “just started being a different person”.

“He kept getting worse and worse, and I don’t even know,” Mr Garcia said. Ramos left school when Mr Garcia moved away and began dressing in all black, he grew out his hair and started using military boots.

 

 

[abdcskins]

So sad what constant bullying and torment can do to people. Being told over and over that you are a piece of trash. That you aren't worthy of respect. I know no one wants to hear it, but I feel sorry for that Ramos kid. 

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, abdcskins said:

So sad what constant bullying and torment can do to people. Being told over and over that you are a piece of trash. That you aren't worthy of respect. I know no one wants to hear it, but I feel sorry for that Ramos kid. 

 

I don't.

 

Bullying isn't new, and it's completely unacceptable to take it out on little kids who had nothing to do with it.

 

People go through all kinds of ****, it is not a license to take that **** out on other people.

[abdcskins]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

I don't.

 

Bullying isn't new, and it's completely unacceptable to take it out on little kids who had nothing to do with it.

 

People go through all kinds of ****, it is not a license to take that **** out on other people.

 

Definitely not acceptable to do what he did. Put it like this, if he hadn't have killed all those kids yesterday, would you have sympathy for him?

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, abdcskins said:

 

Definitely not acceptable to do what he did. Put it like this, if he hadn't have killed all those kids yesterday, would you have sympathy for him?

 

Yes.  It jus goes out the window when he became worse then the bully, none of them shot him.

 

@abdcskins want to add it seems like he was turning into what would we inevitably saw the other day, screaming for help along the way.

 

I feel worse for that guy when he was a kid then the monster that made up his mind to do this, that's different, not the same person clearly.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Renegade7

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said:

So Ramos spent roughly 2k on the 2 guns and who knows how much for 375 rounds...with what money?

 

 

I’m just saying it’s super easy to get a credit card with a 2K limit…

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I’m just saying it’s super easy to get a credit card with a 2K limit…

 

Yea...dude jus turns 18, no job that I've seen so far, and immediately maxes out a possible brand new credit card on rifles and ammo and nobody says anything?  I'd like to hear more about how he got the money, because that possible scenario is also disturbing (I have no evidence this is what happened).

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/salvador-ramos-texas-school-shooting-uvalde-b2087035.html

 

I know especially in the first 24 hours or so after an event like this, there's a lot of pressure on news outlets to be FIRST.  I'm not sure how much I am buying this, but this is the first I've heard that school police officers confronted him or didn't slow him down at all.

 

 

Former classmate didn't think to report this to anyone?  C'mon man.  

 

 

 

I read about it last night on CNN he was confronted outside first and somehow still made it in - not sure why you are just reading about this. 

 

I said the same in my earlier post about the friend. He was ****ing stupid and will now live with he could of in fact prevented death of innocent kids. 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by zCommander

[China]

 

[China]

Republican Ghouls Send Identical Tweets After 19 Kids Killed in School Shooting

 

A mass shooter killed 19 children and two adults at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas on Tuesday. And Republican politicians took to Twitter in the wake of this tragedy to express their condolences. But if you look closely, you’ll notice something odd. Many of the messages were identical, as though they’re all just copying and pasting the same tweets from the last mass shooting.

 

There seems to be a formula for how right-wing politicians are now responding to mass shootings on social media that goes something like this: I am [HORRIFIED, HEARTBROKEN, ETC] at the senseless tragedy in [LOCATION] today. We are [LIFTING THEM UP IN PRAYER, PRAYING FOR THEM] and thank the heroic efforts of [POLICE, FIRST RESPONDERS, ETC] on the scene.

 

That’s it. No promise that laws will be passed to help stop these mass shootings from happening again; no recognition that the U.S. is the only wealthy country in the world where mass shootings happen frequently; no acknowledgement that children in other countries don’t have to participate in active shooter drills. The only thing politicians can muster is “thoughts and prayers” and “thank God for our cops.”

 

Take a look at some of the tweets from yesterday, with an emphasis in the text from Gizmodo to show just how identical these statements really are.

 

Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky:

 

Quote

Horrified and heartbroken by reports of the disgusting violence directed at innocent schoolkids in Uvalde, Texas. The entire country is praying for the children, families, teachers, and staff and the first responders on the scene.

 

Sen. Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee:

 

Quote

Horrified and heartbroken to learn of the significant loss of life in the shooting in Uvalde, Texas. Please join me in lifting their loved ones up in prayer. Thank you to the local first responders working on the scene.

 

Gov. Doug Ducey of Arizona:

 

Quote

This is heartbreaking and soul wrenching. Our prayers are with the parents, families, students and staff of Robb Elementary in Uvalde, TX at this unimaginable time. Thankful for the heroic efforts of medical pros, law enforcement and community members who responded so quickly.

 

Sen. John Hoeven of North Dakota:

 

Quote

We’re horrified by the news out of Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, TX today. Mikey and I are heartbroken for the families and loved ones of the victims & grateful for the first responders and law enforcement who worked to save lives.

 

Click on the link for more

 

So in other words, the usual useless lip service.