The Skins RB situation....

[757SeanTaylor21]

I honestly think ever since the rb coach that shanny had got canned and we brought in this rb coach...our rbs progressively gotten worse and so has our running game. Just as I view the defensive line/defense play as a turn around from defensive coaches and of course added talent...i believe we should be starting to look at the rb coach as a culprit. 

[RandyHolt]

15 minutes ago, SemperFi Skins said:

I understand what you're saying, but he's got the Matt Jones fumblitis... There's just no place for that. I need a back I can trust with the ball in his hands.  It's not a good sign that in your rookie year I am already extremely nervous when you have the ball in your hands.

Haha I always get nervous seeing our TEs lumbering down the field, fearing a fumble. 

 

I agree fumbles don't cut it (for all but the elite backs like AP), but he didn't have a fumbling problem in college, despite a lot of carries. Of course, running through wide open holes minimizes that, but the chances for botched exchanges / dropped pitches IS there on every play. I believe he had 4 fumbles in his last 2 years, but we know QBs take the blame sometimes. I just can't see a competent GM taking a back in the 4th with fumbling issues.

 

The dude is strong as an ox so ripping the ball from him should be minimized. I am thinking the game is happening too fast for him right now, thinking too much to not make a mistake, and voila, a mistake. 

[Bang]

42 minutes ago, carex said:

 

yes well, we'd have four if we weren't decimated by injuries

Well aware..  IMO our best back is now sitting in Minnesota.

That isn't saying much.

I like Thompson, but I think his role is better if he's not the between-the-tackles bell-cow type back. 

I'd like to see a big dose of Perine this week to try and control the clock a bit.

 

~Bang

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

Just going to throw out some random thoughts here

 

*Lets be honest , Letting Alfred Morris go was a very bad decision, He was clearly better and still is than anyone on our roster (Not counting Chris Thompson of course, Obviously  he is a 3rd down change of pace) But imagine a duo of Alfred Morris pounding the line and then #25 hitting them with the speed.

 

*Samaje Perine has shown me very little that says he is going to be a star or even a roleplaying viable back in this league. His vision stinks and thats all there is to it. Watching him run the ball is like trying to play one of those older versions of madden football where you would kinda get stuck on a o-linemans hip and just run in place till a defender brought you down.

 

 

*Free agency is way to go next season when addressing the running back position, AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED BIG TIME. Lets take a look at how we have fared drafting running backs the past 7 seasons

 

2017 Rd 4 Samaje Perine

2016 Rd  7 Keith Marshall

2015 Rd  3 Matt Jones

2014 Rd 6 Lache Seatrunk

2013 Rd 5 Chris Thompson

2013 Rd 7 Jawan Jamison

2012 Rd 6 Alfred Morris

2011 Rd 4 Roy Helu

2011 Rd 6 Evan Royster

 Thats 2 for 9 and the 2 we hit on (Thompson/Morris) were under Shannahan who is a Running back guru.

 

Just thinking of the early 2000's with snyder going free agency crazy makes me cringe but i really think we need to consider bringing in the next "Clinton Portis" Maybe make a trade for a big name runningback who solidify the position for the next 5 seasons or so 

[RandyHolt]

We didn't reach on him, so he has talent. 

 

I think Jay is trying to change how he runs (bigger more decisive cuts) but has been forced into playing while being a work in progress. No one predicted him to be an instant starter (besides me!), which should help set the expectation bar.  He is a bruiser back if you use his college game tape as any indicator. Truckin' ain't as easy up in the bigs, and he is just finding his way. Big bruising backs don't butter their bread with vision. It's with straight line power. He has to reprogram the brain to not lower the shoulder so quickly. It's not hopeless, but do want to see a new RB coach tried next year after so many lead back struggles.

 

Make no mistake, our run game has been horrible for 2 years now.

 

We'll probably convert him to TE if things don't work out, and he'll battle it out with Paul.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

 

*Free agency is way to go next season when addressing the running back position, AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED BIG TIME. Lets take a look at how we have fared drafting running backs the past 7 seasons

 

2017 Rd 4 Samaje Perine

2016 Rd  7 Keith Marshall

2015 Rd  3 Matt Jones

2014 Rd 6 Lache Seatrunk

2013 Rd 5 Chris Thompson

2013 Rd 7 Jawan Jamison

2012 Rd 6 Alfred Morris

2011 Rd 4 Roy Helu

2011 Rd 6 Evan Royster

 Thats 2 for 9 and the 2 we hit on (Thompson/Morris) were under Shannahan who is a Running back guru.

 

Seems to be slim picking in FA -- I guess Crowell, Hyde?   Your point brings home that they haven't drafted RB in the upper rounds in eons.  The highest pick was Matt Jones but that was a borderline 4th round pick too -- he was taken at the end of the 3rd round.

 

Loved Dalvin Cook and Kamara before the last draft and talked about it plenty before the draft.  My take on either player wasn't that insightful -- since they were both clear studs.  Fast forward to now, Kamara has helped transform the Saints offense.  Cook looked great until his injury.   I think for once we need to fish in the "obvious studs" lake for a running back as opposed to draft guys basically in the 4th round and later and hope to get lucky.  And I get plenty have gotten lucky drafting a running back late.  But I am losing patience with that approach -- too many swings and misses.  

 

I haven't studied the current crop that closely yet but as for the draft geeks, the obvious pool would be Guice, Harris, Chubb.  Barkley is great but he's likely going top 5.   I've watched Guice some and he could at times (including last Saturday) look as explosive as Cook or Kamara.  In current mocks, he tends to land right around our first round pick -- 15-20

 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

I have a feeling some GMs may be hesitant to use a top pick on backs. At least, more hesitant than ever. That whole shelf life argument, and there may be something to that.  And its a passing league most days, so.... invest most in players that will play for 10+ years.

 

Cook is injured. Many high profile backs post garbage stats, at least a few seemingly every single week.  This week: Fournette did nothing yesterday after high expectations vs a soft opponent, and rested. AP? 21 carries... wait for it. 29 measly yards for a solid 1.4 GPA. Oh, and he fumbled again.

[Paul Cumberland]

 

[Paul Cumberland]

 

 

[OVCChairman]

Perine is half way through a rookie season and people are writing him off... Guys.  Fumbles happen.  Technical differences can be taught to help that.  I would not compare him to Matt Jones, til he's comparable to Matt Jones.  Matt Jones had 5 fumbles in 2015 and 3 in 2016.   Perine had 1 in preseason where a defender made a good play on the ball, he lost one, and there was a failed transfer between him and Kirk where his hands were closed.  I'm not saying he's guaranteed to not have a problem... just not ready to write him off as a liability the way Jones was.  

[Paul Cumberland]

 

[justice98]

2 hours ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Just going to throw out some random thoughts here

 

*Lets be honest , Letting Alfred Morris go was a very bad decision, He was clearly better and still is than anyone on our roster (Not counting Chris Thompson of course, Obviously  he is a 3rd down change of pace) But imagine a duo of Alfred Morris pounding the line and then #25 hitting them with the speed.

 

*Samaje Perine has shown me very little that says he is going to be a star or even a roleplaying viable back in this league. His vision stinks and thats all there is to it. Watching him run the ball is like trying to play one of those older versions of madden football where you would kinda get stuck on a o-linemans hip and just run in place till a defender brought you down.

 

 

*Free agency is way to go next season when addressing the running back position, AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED BIG TIME. Lets take a look at how we have fared drafting running backs the past 7 seasons

 

2017 Rd 4 Samaje Perine

2016 Rd  7 Keith Marshall

2015 Rd  3 Matt Jones

2014 Rd 6 Lache Seatrunk

2013 Rd 5 Chris Thompson

2013 Rd 7 Jawan Jamison

2012 Rd 6 Alfred Morris

2011 Rd 4 Roy Helu

2011 Rd 6 Evan Royster

 Thats 2 for 9 and the 2 we hit on (Thompson/Morris) were under Shannahan who is a Running back guru.

 

Just thinking of the early 2000's with snyder going free agency crazy makes me cringe but i really think we need to consider bringing in the next "Clinton Portis" Maybe make a trade for a big name runningback who solidify the position for the next 5 seasons or so 

 

They were really drafting for the scheme in 2011 and 2012, and it worked.  Even Helu and Royster were effective running for Shanahan.  It's basically the difference between Shanahan's running game and Gruden's.  And Gruden has better OL talent to work with too.  Gruden just doesn't know how to do it.  And Callahan was supposed to help the run game and he really hasn't.  Gruden's schemes will probably never have a truly effective running component here.  It's just not what he does well. 

[fordranger76]

 

[CTskin]

The RB debate is a frustrating one because it's chicken or the egg; RB talent vs OL creating holes. 

 

In the draft thread I was firmly against drafting Cook or McCaffery with our 1st round pick. Fast forward half of a season and McKinnon/Murray are performing exactly how Cook did before he went down and McCaffery = Chris Thompson, but without the ability to actually play the RB position. Sure Kamara is doing great, but look at the lead back in NO, Mark Ingram, he's looking just as amazing. I believed Fournette was the only gamechanging RB in this draft and the only one worthy of a 1st round pick, but even his backup Chris Ivory is running great this year at a 4.5 clip.

 

The vast majority of the time we'll see consistent numbers for teams' RB stables and for backups when they're asked to replace starters. In very few instances, like AP in MN, Barry in DET, DJ in ARI, could the impressive rushing performance be attributed almost entirely to the talent of the RB.

 

Now look at the Lions, Dolphins, Giants, Raiders, Seahawks, Broncos, Jets, etc. where they aren't great regardless of the RB. They're like us, there will be a good game or two sprinkled in, but for the most part it's not reliable.

 

My point is that our problem rushing the ball isn't on the RB. It doesn't matter who the RB is that we put back there, unless it's an all-pro, we aren't going to be successful. We get no push in the middle. Just start paying attention to how bad our DL gets tossed around compared to what our OL does to the opposing DL. I'm all for upgrading the RB position if it makes sense, but this problem lies firmly on the scheme/Callahan/Luavao and Long. 

 

Please no more talk about Alf... love the guy, but he was just as ineffective in this system his last year as any of the guys that we've had since he left. 

[RandyHolt]

Great job Doug, plucking someone off the Eagles roster. Piss them off, and loot the playbook.

 

Wow look at the Marshall jump cuts. I sure hope no one expected those from Perine.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, CTskin said:

 

My point is that our problem rushing the ball isn't on the RB. It doesn't matter who the RB is that we put back there, unless it's an all-pro, we aren't going to be successful. We get no push in the middle. Just start paying attention to how bad our DL gets tossed around compared to what our OL does to the opposing DL. I'm all for upgrading the RB position if it makes sense, but this problem lies firmly on the scheme/Callahan/Luavao and Long. 

 

Please no more talk about Alf... love the guy, but he was just as ineffective in this system his last year as any of the guys that we've had since he left. 

 

Not saying Cooley knows everything but he clearly knows more football than I do.  So I like listening to his film reviews.  He's addressed the issue many times.  His take on the running back situation over multiple segments is more or less this:

 

Rob Kelley is a D level running back.  His strength is short yardage but doesn't have great vision or burst to really do anything special.  

 

Perine is a C level guy but perhaps can be better.  He liked him better during preseason than thus far in the season.  He thinks Perine is better than Kelley.

 

His thoughts are the main problems with the running game are a combination of Jags at running back in combination with tight ends who are horrific at run blocking who don't set the edge.  So the TE's missing assignments and allowing edge rushers to crash in and stop running backs in their tracks -- coupled with running backs who for the most part don't make good cuts.

 

His thought is if you have a running back who can actually juke past defenders, can make a quick cut, change direction, etc and has some breakaway speed (in other words an above average running back) -- you can overcome these tight ends.  But you can't do it well with these set of running backs especially Kelley.  He thinks the O line is decent at run blocking though he sees Lauvao as a JAG.  He loves Scherff as a run blocker, thought he was the best in the league before his injury.

 

[TK]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Seems to be slim picking in FA --

@thesubmittedone & I were talking about this the other week in Seattle. 

 

This is one of those spots where Scott shined when he was here. He always had lists of guys to bring in mid season when injuries started to mount up. For example, remember Pierre Thomas? He was a huge addition at RB at time when the team needed a reliable RB. 

[campbellcooleyconnection]

Under Gruden we haven't taken RB seriously.Defenses must quiver in fear at facing Fat Rob & Perine..........SMDH.

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

8 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Wow look at the Marshall jump cuts. I sure hope no one expected those from Perine.

 

Looks like some **** Mack Brown wouldve did.....we shouldve kept him...

[XxSpearheadxX]

1 hour ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

 

Looks like some **** Mack Brown wouldve did.....we shouldve kept him...

So do you or anyone else put stock in the whole mack brown was still having trouble with understanding plays thing? I know there were rumours in the twittersphere that it was the main reason he couldn't crack the squad year after year. 

 

It certainly wasn't for lack of talent 

[Bang]

18 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

Perine is half way through a rookie season and people are writing him off... Guys.  Fumbles happen.  Technical differences can be taught to help that.  I would not compare him to Matt Jones, til he's comparable to Matt Jones.  Matt Jones had 5 fumbles in 2015 and 3 in 2016.   Perine had 1 in preseason where a defender made a good play on the ball, he lost one, and there was a failed transfer between him and Kirk where his hands were closed.  I'm not saying he's guaranteed to not have a problem... just not ready to write him off as a liability the way Jones was.  

I agree,, i'm not ready to write him off.

What i am ready to write off is the haphazard (sorry, Hap) way of game-planning a running attack. There doesn't seem to be any commitment, or even rhyme or reason as to why we run what we run when we run it.

We have an OL with bad legs across the board, and backups filling in. So we keep trying to pull and run wide? They tend to get run down and blown up because their legs are hurt, and it's second and ten, second and nine WAY more often than it should be. Couple that with a back without the speed to get the edge or the vision to find a cutback lane and it's a total mess. And they don't seem to notice this. 

Beat up the DL, don't try to outrun them on gimpy legs and a RB with the nickname "FAT".

 

I want to see a big dose of Perine this week, and i want to see him running up the gut.

 

~Bang

[RandyHolt]

9 hours ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

 

Looks like some **** Mack Brown wouldve did.....we shouldve kept him...

IMO it wasn't about Mack Brown.  We had injuries - a ton - and that weren't severe enough to warrant IR. Which OL would have you preferred we prematurely stick on IR for the year to retain Brown, and which OL would you have proposed be the starter for the rest of the year?  If not an OL/IR, who would you have preferred we cut?  Maybe a DB, but weren't they wrecked with injuries as well?

 

I think its becoming clear RB is the position of least concern to GMs.  Why worry about retaining a Mack Brown when his shelf life is so much shorter than seemingly every other position.  New guy jump cuts as good as or better, is faster, and think its safe to say has better hands being a WR and all.

 

 I predict you will like Bryon Marshall and forget all about Macktrunk.

[Bang]

I get Brown was a numbers casualty due to injuries, but there isn't any sense to why he barely played up til then.

 

~Bang

[OVCChairman]

23 minutes ago, Bang said:

I get Brown was a numbers casualty due to injuries, but there isn't any sense to why he barely played up til then.

 

~Bang

This was my frustration.  I wanted to see Brown get 1 shot with the first team, and the bulk of the load.  He never got a chance to actually get a rhythm and get into the flow of things. 

 

 

To go even further, this rotation style RB we've had is detrimental to our cause in my opinion.  I'm not saying one back needs to carry the ball 35 times a game, but RBs need the time to get a rhythm going.  Get multiple game speed looks at defensive tendencies and shifts.  Alf was the best example of this.  We'd watch him slam into a wall for a quarter and a half... just to take over the game in the 3rd / 4th quarter.  He would have average 2.7 ypc in the 1st half and us fans would be losing it because we 'couldn't get it going.'  Then you'd look up at the end of the game and he had 23 carries for 137 and a TD.    I really want to see Perine get a chance to truly carry the load, and use Thompson as a true change of pace back, and matchup advantage.  Thompson is versatile enough that we could really mess with defenses, but I feel like we're not using it as well as we could be.  

[RandyHolt]

Total hunch, but I have a feeling had Perine shown more earlier on in the season, taken the #1 job and not fumbled, that Kelley would have been the casualty cut instead of Mack Brown.  Many experts predicted Perine to start by week 4-6, and Perine was ranked close to equally with Kelley in preseason fantasy rankings as proof. Kelley trending down... not fumbling can only save his job so long.

 

The move that Gruden should have made in hindsight, was properly test Brown (vs the same DL Kelley was struggling against) before being forced to choose one over the other.  And also, to just put Kelley on IR ~a month ago, instead of ultimately releasing Brown.  One quarter aside, where Jay GIbbs'd McVay, Kelley has looked ineffective - at best.  Even in that monster quarter, fans noted he left yardage on the field.

 

Jay bet that injuries Kelley had would heal up, and manoman did he get burned.  Wasn't his ankle sprain a while back, a HIGH ankle sprain? That is a long slow healing IRish kind of thing. Injuries team wide almost mandated SOMEONE headed to IR to provide relief and preserve our depth guys. So we rolled Kelley on one wheel and sure as silk he seemed to aggravate it on Sunday, unless it was the other ankle of course. And re-injured the knee, unless it was the other knee. And the ribs. Our lead back was walking wounded most of the year.

 

So we didn't IR Kelley with his first high ankle, but did today - so it turns out lost Mack to buy ~30 limping carries from Kelley. 

 

But have no fear. The speedy jumpcut whoneedstoPassPro handsy Bryon Marshall is here. With just 2 backs, we will see him, likely Sunday.