Momma There Goes That Man Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I think you know this is wrong. Lincoln refused to acknowledge their secession and argued that they were American citizens of American states in rebellion. This was a crucial interpretation because to acknowledge their secession as legitimate would have destroyed his justification for going to war with them. It would have been the Union invading a sovereign state. Yes, but they “tried” to leave and no longer wanted to be American. Had they won, they would not have been part of America. The point remains the same. They were enemies to their country and tried to abdandon it. They should not be celebrated and that doesn’t even require mentioning the horrific and appalling cause they were actually willing to die fighting for Edited August 21, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Once again, great nations commemorate valor in honorable enemies. And in this case, the enemies were fellow Americans. I know this will suprise people but I actually think you are making good points that make me reconsider my position (starting with your initial quote of me). I'm still not sure I'm against taking them down....but I'm closer to the middle than I was this morning ****ing around with Kilmer 18 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Yes, but they “tried” to leave and no longer wanted to be American. Had they won, they would not have been part of America. The point remains the same. They were enemies to their country and tried to abdandon it. They should not be celebrated and that doesn’t even require mentioning the horrific and appalling cause they were actually willing to die fighting for This is still where I am though. I have alot to think about. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Llevron said: I know this will suprise people but I actually think you are making good points that make me reconsider my position (starting with your initial quote of me). I'm still not sure I'm against taking them down....but I'm closer to the middle than I was this morning ****ing around with Kilmer Honestly, what fun would this place be if we all came in from the middle and agreed with each other? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Just now, Kilmer17 said: Honestly, what fun would this place be if we all came in from the middle and agreed with each other? I wouldn't be here as much that's for sure. I dig that yall can hip me to some new info/perspective here and there. That's why I'm around. New information is a cool thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Maybe we could replace them with a statue of a Union soldier (since they, you know, represent all Americans), along with a dedication plaque commemorating all the soldiers on both sides. I mean, as long as we're really honoring bravery and sacrifice, and all. (As opposed to honoring the Confederacy, as a symbol of segregation). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: Honestly, what fun would this place be if we all came in from the middle and agreed with each other? One of the biggest problems with this board is this insistence to pick sides on everything versus find a middle ground. We're smart enough to come up with more solutions then insults but we dont. Winning the debate or argument seems to always out weight reconsiliation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Larry said: Maybe we could replace them with a statue of a Union soldier (since they, you know, represent all Americans), along with a dedication plaque commemorating all the soldiers on both sides. I mean, as long as we're really honoring bravery and sacrifice, and all. (As opposed to honoring the Confederacy, as a symbol of segregation). I could be down with a rebranding of sorts. Problem is that its needs to be genuine and there is no way to measure that without any trust and we have none as a country at the moment. It would take a leader capable of reaching many kinds of people to pull that off and we just dont have one in America today. 5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: One of the biggest problems with this board is this insistence to pick sides on everything versus find a middle ground. We're smart enough to come up with more solutions then insults but we dont. Winning the debate or argument seems to always out weight reconsiliation That's not a ES thing playa but I feel you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Llevron said: I could be down with a rebranding of sorts. Problem is that its needs to be genuine and there is no way to measure that without any trust and we have none as a country at the moment. It would take a leader capable of reaching many kinds of people to pull that off and we just dont have one in America today. Funny, we've got LOTS of leaders we trust to honor the CONFEDERATE soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, Llevron said: That's not a ES thing playa but I feel you. Wishful thinking, ya, but oligarchy works via divide and conquer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why am I Mr. Pink? Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) This is a Confederate monument that I pass almost everyday as I leave work going north on Georgia Avenue. Its about 1 mile prior to 495 exits. This thread reminded me of that so I just googled it and it has a pretty interesting history. This monument marks the grave of 17 Confederate soldiers who died in the battle of Fort Stevens in July of 1864. After the battle, the Union dead were interred formally at the Battleground National Cemetery. The Confederate dead were buried in shallow graves on several Silver Spring farms. In 1874, the pastor of Grace Episcopal Church, himself a Confederate veteran, was able to locate 17 bodies and had them moved to the church cemetery. The only body that could be identified was Pvt. James Bland of Highland County, Virginia. The graves were lined up in front of the church in a lot donated by Montgomery Blair, a parishioner who had been Lincoln's postmaster and Dread Scott's Attorney. The religious ceremony performed over the new graves displayed explicit Confederate partisanship. Susan Soderberg quotes the Evening Star's description of Dr. A.Y.P. Garnett's oration to show the flavor of the commemoration. He congratulated those present that the time had come when they could do justice to the memories of their friends, and perform such services unmolested. He alluded to the causes of the war, and justified the south for their actions. He once alluded to the willingness of the south to take up arms to defend their homes from invasion, when a voice in the crowd said, "And we're still willing to do it Doctor." He alluded to the south as "our people" and Jeff Davis as "our president." The Church granted the Street Railway trolley company a right of way along Georgia Avenue in 1898 and, in preparation, moved the bodies in 1897 to a mass grave at the southwest corner of the cemetery. Georgia Avenue was later widened to cover the trolley right of way, so the original location of the graves is now the righthand northbound lane of Georgia Avenue (MD 97). The current monument was dedicated in a ceremony that Soderberg notes was much more conciliatory. The orator of the day was Judge Samuel Blackwell of Alabama, who spoke of "the almost total obliteration of sectional lines" and the unity of North and South in "standing for the perpetuation of the nation and the flag." According to the Sentinel (November 20, 1896) newspaper, a well-known Washington citizen, Paul Jones, son of a man who had died fighting for the Union, then rose and "claimed the privilege of recognizing the valor of the Confederate soldiers" by laying a bunch of white chrysanthemums at the foot of the monument. Although the current congregation are fairly liberal Episcopalians -- when I last visited here some years ago the pastor was an African American woman -- a person or persons unknown places flowers and sometimes flags on this grave quite regularly; a reminder, I hope, that even men who found themselves on the wrong side of history deserve some remembrance in death. http://allenbrowne.blogspot.com/2011/06/confederate-monument.html ------------------------------------------------------- So there it is. Everytime you drive in the far right lane of Georgia Ave at this spot, you are driving over dead confederate soldiers original graves. internet = knowledge Edited August 21, 2018 by Why am I Mr. Pink? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 All confederate statues should either be on a battlefield or in a cemetery. Anywhere else is illogical. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 20 minutes ago, Llevron said: know this will suprise people but I actually think you are making good points that make me reconsider my position (starting with your initial quote of me). I'm still not sure I'm against taking them down....but I'm closer to the middle than I was this morning ****ing around with Kilmer I have a different perspective on the issue because of my background. I got my degree in history from U of R and specialized in the Civil War, writing a thesis on the religiosity of the Union soldiery. In some ways it's more of a dispassionate subject for me than most people. But in others it's a more passionate subject for me. I really like the statues on Monument Ave and that road is one of the most beautiful parts of Richmond. It'd be a shame to see us tear down or hide away our history and forget all of the important lessons the event teaches us. History is vital and I think it should be around us. Monument building has been a feature of human civic life going back to the beginning. And it'd be a shame to stop celebrating martial virtue and personal sacrifice because of shifting political winds. Or any other form of heroism and virtue for that matter. I don't want to get to the day where we no longer honor Ghandi because of his attitudes about women, but I believe that is what will happen. To me the problem isn't that we have these monuments honoring the South but that we're not equally honoring the other sides of the war. The confederate statuary is alienating to our black citizens because they are excluded by it. Their war contributions are ignored and forgotten. But if we built statuary to honor black heroes from the war and put them in the same public spaces, then it would be much more fair. Our black citizens should be able to feel pride and a sense of connection to their past that Southern white men feel. I would be in support of private entities that sought to build more monuments to honor black and union heroes in the places where confederate monuments stand. I would be in support of governments doing it too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: And it'd be a shame to stop celebrating martial virtue and personal sacrifice because of shifting political winds. Or any other form of heroism and virtue for that matter. I don't want to get to the day where we no longer honor Ghandi because of his attitudes about women, but I believe that is what will happen. Steve this is pretty disappointing because I know that you are smarter than making a slippery slope analogy. Ghandi has a lifetime of positive achievements and reasons to be remembered and celebrated. We know that nobody is perfect and we can honor people like Ghandi while recognizing their flaws. The same with people like Washington and Jefferson who also owned slaves but did so many other amazing and memorable things. None of that applies to confederacy soldiers. They are known for their time in the war and little else in nearly every case of the statues anyway. They don't have the overwhelming redeeming qualities and accomplishments that other flawed figures we celebrate also have. IF they weren't in the war, we wouldn't be putting their monuments and statues up Edited August 21, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: None of that applies to confederacy soldiers. They are known for their time in the war and little else in nearly every case of the statues anyway. They don't have the overwhelming redeeming qualities and accomplishments that other flawed figures we celebrate also have. There are two sides to that coin though... What if there are Confederate soldiers who, despite lesser accomplishments than Jefferson or Washington, didn't own slaves? What if there were some who weren't fighting for slavery, per se, but fighting simply because they believed it was right given the information that they had at the time, what they believed would protect their families, etc. I'm not making that point to defend Confederate ideals...I'm making that point because it's truly a slippery slope when we begin to pick and choose who is "important" enough to honor despite being racist or participating in slavery. It's very possible that there were better, albeit less important, men we are lumping into a category called "Confederate soldiers" without really knowing. Edited August 21, 2018 by TD_washingtonredskins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I think if you've bragged about whipping someone to their dress was in shreds, you don't get to have that statue anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: I think if you've bragged about whipping someone to their dress was in shreds, you don't get to have that statue anymore. Did someone make a statue for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, twa said: Did someone make a statue for him? For him. Yes. Of him specifically? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaytoAli Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) Food for thought: Most physical relics of the Nazi regime were banished from public view. - https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/20/why-there-are-no-nazi-statues-in-germany-215510 I’m sure my great grandparents and their parents who were slaves would agree. Speaking as a descendant and being born in Bavaria. Edited August 21, 2018 by ClaytoAli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Lincoln did not equate them to Nazi's, of course he was a Republican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, twa said: Lincoln did not equate them to Nazi's, of course he was a Republican. That's because Lincoln didn't want anyone to know he was a time traveler from the future. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaytoAli Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, twa said: Lincoln did not equate them to Nazi's, of course he was a Republican. Funny thing was that he left the party when the dixiecrats came over from the south as immigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I think you all need to relax. There will be plenty of statues to put up after the next civil war coming soon. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 i like how every time it's just fine and dandy "go to the nazi's" when someone wants to make a worst case example...and that just becuase i'm of goiman/austrian extraction (and yes, i was extracted) my feelinks are just a joke and my people are two...and you even have to do it in a thread where you already have as fodder all these racist redneck idol-worshiping murderous morons whose descendants would later inflict horrors like hee-haw and dukes of hazard on decent folk across the nation, and still you need bring up the "nazi" stuff...and like it would do any good to say anything to a mod...useless.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Dukes of Hazzard was pretty horrible tho. I think we can all agree there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulSkin Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I still have the occasional nightmare of walking down an endless elementary school hallway, surrounded by a bunch of morons coo-coo-cooin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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