Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 30 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said: The $23.8M is not in the $125M. It's a benefit that allows you to make $23.8M over your career. It's only available if you sign the contract while you are still under your rookie contract. If you really think its in the $125M, let me know how the player ends up making 23.8 during his career. Everyone seems to agree on this point. That $23,8 has to come from somewhere. Why would he get an extra $23.8 million ON TOP of his 5-year contract for signing his contract this year? That's your equation: "Let me do the math for you: (25*5+23.8)/5 = 29.76" How in the world is Carr ending up with an additional $23.8Mil that's NOT in a contract he signs? 22 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: The ceiling for both of these young guys so early in their careers is in Canton, Ohio. That is as good as it could get either one of them because they both should be able to play for another decade. I think anyone projecting one over the other is being foolish and grossly overestimating their own understanding. So you don't think Cousins should get more than Carr, then?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 minute ago, goskins10 said: Ok, one more try and then I give up, because if you can't see it then you just never will - and honestly it's not that important. Current state: 2017 - $1.2M If he signs a contract for 5 yrs that starts now: 2017 - $25M (He is making $23.8M more than he would if they did nothing). 2018 - $25M 2019 - $25M 2020 - $25M 2021 - $25M Totals $125M over 5 yrs. The increase for this year is the difference between $1.2M and $25M for 2017. He is making $23.8M more but it's because of the 1st year salary of $25M. Therefore the $23.8M is in the $125M. There is no additional $23.8M. You can't add it twice which is the only way you get to $29.8M/yr. Accrued Earnings (NK= prorated value of his subsequent contract) Signs now Signs in 2018 Diff 2017: 25M 1M 24M 2018: 50M 26M 24M 2019: 75M 51M 24M 2020: 100M 76M 24M 2021: 125M 101M 24M 2022: 125M+NK 126M NK-1 2023: 125M+2*NK 126M+NK NK-1 Unless signing the current offer causes Carr to retire a year early, he'll always be about one year ahead in salary by signing this year, because he got rid of the last year of his rookie contract. So he will make approximately $24M ahead by signing a contract this year. That benefit is entirely due to the contract he signs this year while he's making only $1M. If he holds out a year, it goes away. Let's say that his agent tells him that he's worth $26M a year and he should hold out to next year to get that much. Do you think that would be a good deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemocystem Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 i'm confused...would the AP release a contractual number that wasn't official for the books? if they say $125m 5/yr, then i think it's as safe as the Hulk in an arm-wrestling match to assume that that number is what will factually be paid in toto to the player over the course of 5 years, no? or are they making some secret side payments that go against "the spirit of the cap?" or am i just completely off on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 minute ago, theTruthTeller said: Accrued Earnings (NK= prorated value of his subsequent contract) Signs now Signs in 2018 Diff 2017: 25M 1M 24M 2018: 50M 26M 24M 2019: 75M 51M 24M 2020: 100M 76M 24M 2021: 125M 101M 24M 2022: 125M+NK 126M NK-1 2023: 125M+2*NK 126M+NK NK-1 Unless signing the current offer causes Carr to retire a year early, he'll always be about one year ahead in salary by signing this year, because he got rid of the last year of his rookie contract. So he will make approximately $24M ahead by signing a contract this year. That benefit is entirely due to the contract he signs this year while he's making only $1M. If he holds out a year, it goes away. Let's say that his agent tells him that he's worth $26M a year and he should hold out to next year to get that much. Do you think that would be a good deal? That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. And BTW you wrote the same thing I did - lol. Yes, he makes $23.8M more now if he signs a new contract. But it still equals $125M over 5 yrs - period. Please defend the $29.8M/yr number? That is what this entire thing has been about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, goskins10 said: That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. And BTW you wrote the same thing I did - lol. Yes, he makes $23.8M more now if he signs a new contract. But it still equals $125M over 5 yrs - period. Please defend the $29.8M/yr number? That is what this entire thing has been about. Yes, please lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 19 minutes ago, goskins10 said: That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. And BTW you wrote the same thing I did - lol. Yes, he makes $23.8M more now if he signs a new contract. But it still equals $125M over 5 yrs - period. Please defend the $29.8M/yr number? That is what this entire thing has been about. Yes. Carr gets a benefit of 23.8 over signing next year- you say to agree on that. He'll make an additional $23.8M over his career - you say you agree to that. That value is coming from this contract. If you prorate that over the term of the contract, that's an additional 4.8M/year on top of his $25M/year prorated salary. The contract pays $125M by the end of 2021; but for the contract he'd make $101M. That's why I said "effectively". The team is letting him out of his rookie contract, the Raiders don't have to, its worth money to Carr, and its easy to compute how much money its worth. $23.8M. I've answered your questions about 3 times now, please answer these: 1) How much is a contract that pays out $125M over five years worth to Player A who just finished his rookie contract, on a yearly basis? 2) How much is a contract that pays out $125M over five years worth to Player B who has one year at $1M left on his rookie contract, on a yearly basis? 3) If your answer to 2 and 3 are the same, why does Player B accrue $24M more than Player A for each year of his career? What do you attribute that money to? Black Magic? 21 minutes ago, nemocystem said: i'm confused...would the AP release a contractual number that wasn't official for the books? if they say $125m 5/yr, then i think it's as safe as the Hulk in an arm-wrestling match to assume that that number is what will factually be paid in toto to the player over the course of 5 years, no? or are they making some secret side payments that go against "the spirit of the cap?" or am i just completely off on this? The Raiders will have $24M less in cap space because they are paying $25M instead of 1M by getting rid of his contractual obligation to play for $1M in 2017. Whether it all happens this year or not depends upon how they structure the salaries and bonuses. He'll pay more in taxes, too, because he's making more money. Over his career he'll pay taxes on approximately $24M more revenue. It's not a side deal. It's getting a raise when you are contractually bound to a lower salary. I'll ask you the same question that Goskins wouldn't answer: You are under contract to make $100,000 a year for four years and your boss said that he was giving you a raise to $2.4M per year, He asks you do you want the raise to start now or a year from now. What's your answer? What is it worth to you to start now rather than a year from now? 2 minutes ago, Califan007 said: Yes, please lol... Congrats - you convinced me. Not that your right, but that your logical skills are poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 1 hour ago, London Kev said: I'm dying to know who's right, cos I ain't got a ****ing clue. TT is probably right but I'll wait until the contract is finalized and we have all the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said: Yes. Carr gets a benefit of 23.8 over signing next year- you say to agree on that. He'll make an additional $23.8M over his career - you say you agree to that. That value is coming from this contract. If you prorate that over the term of the contract, that's an additional 4.8M/year on top of his $25M/year prorated salary. The contract pays $125M by the end of 2021; but for the contract he'd make $101M. That's why I said "effectively". The team is letting him out of his rookie contract, the Raiders don't have to, its worth money to Carr, and its easy to compute how much money its worth. $23.8M. I've answered your questions about 3 times now, please answer these: 1) How much is a contract that pays out $125M over five years worth to Player A who just finished his rookie contract, on a yearly basis? 2) How much is a contract that pays out $125M over five years worth to Player B who has one year at $1M left on his rookie contract, on a yearly basis? 3) If your answer to 2 and 3 are the same, why does Player B accrue $24M more than Player A for each year of his career? What do you attribute that money to? Black Magic? The Raiders will have $24M less in cap space because they are paying $25M instead of 1M by getting rid of his contractual obligation to play for $1M in 2017. Whether it all happens this year or not depends upon how they structure the salaries and bonuses. He'll pay more in taxes, too, because he's making more money. Over his career he'll pay taxes on approximately $24M more revenue. It's not a side deal. It's getting a raise when you are contractually bound to a lower salary. I'll ask you the same question that Goskins wouldn't answer: You are under contract to make $100,000 a year for four years and your boss said that he was giving you a raise to $2.4M per year, He asks you do you want the raise to start now or a year from now. What's your answer? What is it worth to you to start now rather than a year from now? Congrats - you convinced me. Not that your right, but that your logical skills are poor. Player B does not earn more than $125M over 5 yrs. It's the same $23.8M! You can't add them twice!! LOL I am done here. Not worth it. Carry on. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Yes, truth teller is right. Im sure Carr's camp put some thought into playing rookie contract out and playing it out like Kirk, but there's too much value in signing the contract to receive the immediate pay increase this year. Its effectively 23.8 million of "new" money this year. They probably could've went the route of making up this money and demanded 29-30million a year next year, but made a wise decision in taking money right away. This is all voided obviously if contract starts after this year, then the Raiders got him at a really good rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said: Yes. Carr gets a benefit of 23.8 over signing next year- you say to agree on that. He'll make an additional $23.8M over his career - you say you agree to that. That value is coming from this contract. If you prorate that over the term of the contract, that's an additional 4.8M/year on top of his $25M/year prorated salary. The contract pays $125M by the end of 2021; but for the contract he'd make $101M. That's why I said "effectively". The team is letting him out of his rookie contract, the Raiders don't have to, its worth money to Carr, and its easy to compute how much money its worth. $23.8M. I've answered your questions about 3 times now, please answer these: 1) How much is a contract that pays out $125M over five years worth to Player A who just finished his rookie contract, on a yearly basis? 2) How much is a contract that pays out $125M over five years worth to Player B who has one year at $1M left on his rookie contract, on a yearly basis? 3) If your answer to 2 and 3 are the same, why does Player B accrue $24M more than Player A for each year of his career? What do you attribute that money to? Black Magic? So you're saying that if Carr signs a $125M/5yr contract THIS year, it'll "essentially" be like a $29M/5yr contract, because...he would have normally made $1M this year? But if he signs a $125M/yr contract NEXT year, it will only be like a $25M/5yr contract? Is that your logic?...Is anyone else seeing this? And for the record, you said his CONTRACT would "essentially" be worth $29.8M/yr, not that he would earn an additional $23.8M over the length of his career...I said that lol...not you. YOU claimed the contract would be worth and additional $23.8M over the length of the contract....and that it would be good news for Cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 You guys are essentially arguing over a technicality. You all agree that by signing now rather than next year Carr is getting an extra $23.8M that he wouldn't be able to earn otherwise over the life of his career, because they could make him play the upcoming season for $1M if they didn't pay him now. It's money he either takes now or basically never sees because his earnings going forward will be about the same regardless--minus the bigger money he might have earned by waiting one more year, but that's speculation and I doubt it would get close to $23.8M. And from the Raiders POV they lock him down early and prevent paying even more next year, etc. Those are facts. What you're disagreeing about is how to think about that "extra" money in relation to his total contract dollars. I think TT would have made more sense if he said: --Taking the new contract now gives him a 125/5 contract. vs --Taking the same contract next year gives him a 126/6 contract, essentially. Obviously the first option is better. But it's not worth arguing about because we don't know how much he'd make after waiting a season--I think it's unlikely he'd make up that $$ by waiting, though. And he'll hit his next contract faster this way too. TT understands the situation (as does everyone else discussing it) but is ****ing up the numbers when explaining it, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 14 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said: You guys are essentially arguing over a technicality. You all agree that by signing now rather than next year Carr is getting an extra $23.8M that he wouldn't be able to earn otherwise over the life of his career, because they could make him play the upcoming season for $1M if they didn't pay him now. Here's what got me into all this to begin with, which he has since changed the goalposts: "Carr is entering the fourth year of his rookie contract, and is currently under contract to get salary and bonuses of about $1.2M this year. If he signs a LTD at $25M/year for 5 years, its really like signing a $29.6M/year contract, because the Raiders are letting him off of the last year of his rookie contract. Given the same contract, Kirk would only get an additional $1M in 2017. So this is a huge win for Kirk." We aren't arguing the same thing....I'm arguing against the part in bold. I corrected him in a later post by saying the ONLY benefit that comes to Carr signing now is that he will make an extra $23.8M over the length of his career, which is NOT the same as the length of the contract he signs. And I have ZERO idea how Carr making an extra $23.8M over the length of his career is a "huge win" for Cousins...unless TT thinks Cousins can now say "Hey, I want to make an additional $23.8M over the length of my career, too" lol...good lord, I hope that's not what he's saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 25 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said: Yes. Carr gets a benefit of 23.8 over signing next year- you say to agree on that. He'll make an additional $23.8M over his career - you say you agree to that. That value is coming from this contract. If you prorate that over the term of the contract, that's an additional 4.8M/year on top of his $25M/year prorated salary. The contract pays $125M by the end of 2021; but for the contract he'd make $101M. That's why I said "effectively". The team is letting him out of his rookie contract, the Raiders don't have to, its worth money to Carr, and its easy to compute how much money its worth. $23.8M. I've answered your questions about 3 times now, please answer these: 1) How much is a contract that pays out $125M over five years worth to Player A who just finished his rookie contract, on a yearly basis? 2) How much is a contract that pays out $125M over five years worth to Player B who has one year at $1M left on his rookie contract, on a yearly basis? 3) If your answer to 2 and 3 are the same, why does Player B accrue $24M more than Player A for each year of his career? What do you attribute that money to? Black Magic? The Raiders will have $24M less in cap space because they are paying $25M instead of 1M by getting rid of his contractual obligation to play for $1M in 2017. Whether it all happens this year or not depends upon how they structure the salaries and bonuses. He'll pay more in taxes, too, because he's making more money. Over his career he'll pay taxes on approximately $24M more revenue. It's not a side deal. It's getting a raise when you are contractually bound to a lower salary. I'll ask you the same question that Goskins wouldn't answer: You are under contract to make $100,000 a year for four years and your boss said that he was giving you a raise to $2.4M per year, He asks you do you want the raise to start now or a year from now. What's your answer? What is it worth to you to start now rather than a year from now? Congrats - you convinced me. Not that your right, but that your logical skills are poor. I see what you are saying. It still does not support the $29.6M/yr statement. That's what threw everything because honestly that's just incorrect. But here it goes. See if you follow. What you think is happening is that the team is saying we are signing you to a 5 yr contract that starts in 2018 but we will begin paying you that rate now. That turns into a 6 yr contract at $25Myr or $150M. So it's still not $29.8M/yr. It's $25Myr for 6 yrs. The way the contract will in fact work is that they replace the existing contract that's for $1.2M this year with a new that is for $25M/yr for 5 yrs that starts now. So yes, he gets $23.8M more this year. But the total worth of the contract is still just $125M over 5 yrs or wait for it: $25M/yr. And now I am totally done. All you saying he is correct have to just be trying to keep this going out of boredom. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 3 hours ago, PartyPosse said: At this point I'm ok with signing Kirk to 30 million a year just to end this stupid argument. Actually that would turn out to be a $36.8 million. Allow me to explain.: 30millionx 5years =150. Now add in the rising cost of childcare vs that of 1987. Subtract the number of black voters in Calis post. Multiply by the square root of Jenny phone number 867-5309 and you get a real world salary of 36.824 /year. If you don't follow this math, there's no hope for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor 36 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 1 hour ago, goskins10 said: All you saying he is correct have to just be trying to keep this going out of boredom. lol That's the only plausible reason I can come up with why people are saying he's correct, other than people in these parts really, really suck at basic math. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedBNG Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwyl Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Truth teller is trying to tell us all that a pound of rocks weighs more than a pound of feathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Pwyl said: Truth teller is trying to tell us all that a pound of rocks weighs more than a pound of feathers. Related: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Couisins needs to read this thread, realize how downhill things have gone, and then sign his deal to spare of the misery of more fake math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 4 hours ago, Califan007 said: So you don't think Cousins should get more than Carr, then?... I think the Redskins should offer Kirk a 5 year deal with terms he'll agree to with a option for another 5. I don't know if a comparison to Carr's salary is important to Kirk, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. If some place in the NFL salary payroll rankings is important give it to him, give him what he wants and be done with it. The only comparison with Carr that ought to be relevant to the Redskins is Kirk has a lot more leverage than Carr. The Raiders have Carr under contract for another year and haven't had to use the franchise tag whereas the Skins have tagged Kirk twice. Right now I would expect the Cousins team to be using this 24M salary as a base and asking for 125M over 5 years and 75M guaranteed. If they tag for 28M after the 2017 season the Cousins team will use 28M a year as the base year. The Skins did this to themselves. They should have offered him a moderately priced extension in middle of 2015, I posted that I had seen enough and thought they should have extended after about 8 games and was right. Even by mid season they knew Griffin was a bust and Cousins was at least a placeholder guy that could operate Grudens offense and help the rest of the roster run the playbook. At the end of 2015 they knew he was more than a placeholder and if the Cousins team was asking for the going rate for starters they should have paid it. At the end of 2016 they should have offered him a top QB 5 year deal immediately after the season instead it looks like they slow played this thing as if they thought they had the leverage. Kirk wasn't afraid to bet on himself and play under tag in 2016 after excelling 1 year why would do they think he'll be afraid to play on the tag after he has excelled 2 years in a row? They only option that makes sense is offer him top money and hope he will continue to excel and they can build around him. More than Carr, sure if that will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 There's no such thing as a contract with an option for 5 more years lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 hours ago, BleedBNG said: lol that is awesome!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said: There's no such thing as a contract with an option for 5 more years lol Do know of a league prohibition on a contract having a 5 extension provision? If there isn't a prohibition I would want to get from Cousins, an option to extend it next time. Let say the parties are will to agree to 5 years for 125M with 75 guarantee, I want Cousins to agree to also give the Skins an option for another 5 years at perhaps a sweeter rate and this time a just 2 year guarantee instead, This way Cousins gets great contract that elevates him to among the best paid and in 5 years the team opts to exercise the option for 5 more and 50+ is guaranteed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Veryoldschool said: Do know of a league prohibition on a contract having a 5 extension provision? If there isn't a prohibition I would want to get from Cousins, an option to extend it next time. Let say the parties are will to agree to 5 years for 125M with 75 guarantee, I want Cousins to agree to also give the Skins an option for another 5 years at perhaps a sweeter rate and this time a just 2 year guarantee instead, This way Cousins gets great contract that elevates him to among the best paid and in 5 years the team opts to exercise the option for 5 more and 50+ is guaranteed No player or agent would ever allow a team option that long, especially on a second contract. Any type of team option at all is rare. The market that far out is a total unknown, for one thing. Its so ridiculous that its honestly not even worth breaking down. Its going to be hard enough to sign the guy right now without worrying about 5 years from now or stupid contract provisions like this getting in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Any decent QB will be getting his contract re-written every 3 years anyway. No chance they play out a 5 year deal unless they fail to improve. If they improve and bring success, they get more money and a revised deal within that original contract term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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