HOF44 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 2 hours ago, TheShredSkinz said: He's the one turning down these offers that everyone else in the league is laughing at us about even offering him. He's turned down 19 and now 24 a year. But keep faulting the team over this dude. I haven't seen anything anywhere that he was offered a deal averaging 24 Mill. You have a link?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markmills67 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Califan007 said: Yep...I'm sticking to my 85% gut feeling til the end lol... I need 100% off you mate lol I can't cope with another 3 weeks of waiting. HTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, HOF44 said: I haven't seen anything anywhere that he was offered a deal averaging 24 Mill. You have a link?? Yeah, this hasn't happened. The moment it did the Skins would leak it to put the pressure on Cousin's camp to sign (assuming the guaranteed money was right). There has been no big offer yet imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Only figures I ever really heard that were supposedly from the Skins was $48 M/3yrs/$24 M guaranteed (in 2016) and $20M/yr/$44M guaranteed (in 2017)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 43 minutes ago, clskinsfan said: In fairness there were not a whole lot people in the league or in the media that would have given Cousins a long term deal after 8 good games. Lets not forget Cousins struggled in the first half of 2015. I was fine with the franchise before last season. And obviously after Kirk playing well last season the franchise tag was a necessity this year to keep him off of the market. I really wish Kirk would have played well the entire 2015 season because most likely we would have signed him at that point to a team friendly long term deal. I'm not going to argue the LTD after the 2015 season as I wasn't beating the Big $ LTD drum at that time either. However, I'm not in charge of running a professional football franchise. With that said, the team had to know that if Kirk matched or exceeded his 2015 performance, they were going to have to open the checkbook big time come the end of the 2016 season. The team had time to put together a legit offer between the end of the 2016 season and applying the 2nd franchise tag. They also had to know that applying a 2nd franchise tag would only drive his asking price higher. The front office definitely made mistakes in handling his contract situation, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 53 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said: 19 was a bad joke when we offered it. There's been no report that he's turned down 24. Correct. The 24mil offer was 'inside' information on here months ago. So, the fact Kirk hasn't signed by now implies that either that information was incorrect or that Kirks agent has indeed turned that kind of money down. My view is that it is simply all down to fully gtd money. The average money per year matter is secondary to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purbeast Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 3 hours ago, TheShredSkinz said: He's the one turning down these offers that everyone else in the league is laughing at us about even offering him. He's turned down 19 and now 24 a year. But keep faulting the team over this dude. He turned down $24/million a year? That's news to me. What was the guarantee on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDOOM Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 51 minutes ago, purbeast said: He turned down $24/million a year? That's news to me. What was the guarantee on it? Don't know the guarantee but placing the tag on him guarantees 19 and then 24 mill. To place the tag on him then expect him to sign for less a year would be dumb. I don't think our F.O is would still be expecting KC to give a hometown discount based on his actions and reports of him going to SF and seeing him at the game with Kyle. Maybe my mind is set but I just don't see him wanting to be here and can't wrap my mind around him not being grateful for 20mill a yr. being about the 15th QB I'd take if all were available. He seems to be intentially pricing himself out of our reach knowing our team would be significantly behind the 8 giving him the $$ he's asking. I wish I were more optimistic and loved KC as much as VOS did or others but it is what it is. Hope I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I'm not going to argue the LTD after the 2015 season as I wasn't beating the Big $ LTD drum at that time either. However, I'm not in charge of running a professional football franchise. With that said, the team had to know that if Kirk matched or exceeded his 2015 performance, they were going to have to open the checkbook big time come the end of the 2016 season. The team had time to put together a legit offer between the end of the 2016 season and applying the 2nd franchise tag. They also had to know that applying a 2nd franchise tag would only drive his asking price higher. The front office definitely made mistakes in handling his contract situation, no ifs, ands or buts about it. The first tag was used because the team wanted to see Kirk prove himself more before doing a LTD. It was only done because Kirk had a short resume as a starter. This is very rare when it comes to starting QBs and LTDs to have one due up for a big deal after just 1 season as starter and half of it being very good. This second tag is more like a first tag in terms of negotiating. It was used to keep other teams from interfering and to extend negotiations. Even the most successful teams, including Patriots with Wilfork, Broncos with Von Miller, and Steelers currently with Le'veon Bell, use the tag to extend negotiations. One thing you are not considering in your belief that 6 weeks was enough time to negotiate a deal that would likely make Kirk one of the highest paid in the NFL, is what all else the team was going through in January and February with the GM. Dealing with McCloughan, his going dark right before the start of free agency, etc. certainly took priority over KC deal. Team needed clarity on who was to do what since the GM wasn't around. Another thing is the draft and trades. Whether or not the team was all in on Kirk, if a deal can be done in July and their are teams very interested in Kirk, isn't it in the team's best interest to hear those potential trade offers leading up to and during the draft? If someone had offered an RG3-type deal for Kirk, would have been very hard to say no to that. Further, by waiting the team has been able to address the roster through free agency and the draft, and now knows the cap situation for the current roster. This is also why the Raiders took until now to extend Carr rather than doing it back in January. If you want to argue that the team should have had faith in Kirk after 2015 and done the LTD then, it's a fair argument. It's countered by what had just happened with RG3, the long list of 1 year wonder QBs, Kirk's short resume as starter, great vs. weak defenses, etc. But it's still a legit argument. But I don't think it's a good argument that the team should have gotten it done in 6 weeks before this year's tag deadline and it was a mistake not to, what with what all else they had going on, with all the upcoming roster moves, the draft, potential trades, etc. There are benefits to getting it done early, sure, but as explained above there are also benefits to waiting. If there weren't then why is nobody chastizing the Steelers with the Bell situation? Plus, applying the tag again didn't drive the asking price higher. Kirk, since the end of this past season, has been in top paid QB territory. Any QB playing as a top 10 QB up for a new deal is in that territory. But, no QB is going to get a deal significantly larger than the current top paid QB. It only goes up a bit at a time (unless several years go by without a big deal for a QB). That's why the $30 million guesstimate if Kirk was a FA next year is laughable. Even when Brees was a top free agent and went to the Saints, his deal made him top paid but it didn't dwarf the current top paid QB at that time. With next year's cap, $30 per year would be crippling to a team. Cap need to be much higher for a 5 milion a year jump. So unless Kirk has been demanding an insane contract significantly higher than what Carr just got, it's likely his goal has been to get similar to what Carr has. The team's goal is to drive Kirk down as low as possible. Deadlines get both sides to move. I think one issue, besides the wait, that has some fans frantic is the assumption that Kirk is content to hit free agency if need be and so he has all the leverage. But really the team has leverage too. Kirk may say he's all in on himself, but he too know this is the Not For Long league and one bad season, for whatever reason, could cost him millions. Further, he has said he wants to create more awareness for IJM by using his fame. Can't do that if you're stuck on a rebuilding team that doesn't pan out, especially not when you're in your 30s by the end of that regime. But right here, right now, he's in a system he thrives in, behind a top 5 OL, the team committed itself to getting him more receivers and has great ones on the roster who he knows well, and they focused on improving defense as well. An LTD with the Skins gives him job security, a national platform as a top performing QB in one of the largest media markets, an almost-guarantee the offense will keep doing well and he'll keep looking good. Plus, QB-needy teams also have a limit. None are going to give him some insane deal like $30 million a year. Plus, he has no idea who his suitors would be next year. 49ers could have a QB catch on, same with houston. Kirk could be looking only at crap teams interested in his services, in small markets, where all he'll have besides a big contract is a waning career and reduced stats. This team, he has already had success with and there is greater certainity in the here and now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, TheShredSkinz said: Don't know the guarantee but placing the tag on him guarantees 19 and then 24 mill. To place the tag on him then expect him to sign for less a year would be dumb. I don't think our F.O is would still be expecting KC to give a hometown discount based on his actions and reports of him going to SF and seeing him at the game with Kyle. Maybe my mind is set but I just don't see him wanting to be here and can't wrap my mind around him not being grateful for 20mill a yr. being about the 15th QB I'd take if all were available. He seems to be intentially pricing himself out of our reach knowing our team would be significantly behind the 8 giving him the $$ he's asking. I wish I were more optimistic and loved KC as much as VOS did or others but it is what it is. Hope I'm wrong. He's top 10 producer at his position. $20 million is an introductory, low ball offer from the team. Kirk wanted about that after last season alone. Plus, the market operates off need much more than it does a players perceived ranking at his position. I see it all the time when discussing contracts in the NFL, that people will say things like "oh so and so isn't as good as Aaron Rodgers, so they shouldn't be paid more than him." That opinion doesn't take into account how the market actually works. Rodgers signed his deal years ago, so cap and market ceiling have increased since then. Rodgers isn't on the market either. Whoever is on the market, if they're any good they'll command top dollar or close to it, especially at QB, the most coveted position. Thus lower-ranked players fetch larger money. In the market need trumps rankings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 2 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said: Correct. The 24mil offer was 'inside' information on here months ago. So, the fact Kirk hasn't signed by now implies that either that information was incorrect or that Kirks agent has indeed turned that kind of money down. My view is that it is simply all down to fully gtd money. The average money per year matter is secondary to that. IIRC, that inside info did have the caveat that the guaranteed money was low and that was what needed negotiating, that both sides were about on the same page for annual money at $24-25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 hour ago, TheShredSkinz said: To place the tag on him then expect him to sign for less a year would be dumb. 1 hour ago, TheShredSkinz said: I just don't see him wanting to be here and can't wrap my mind around him not being grateful for 20mill a yr. . Make up your mind. You seem perfectly capable of wrapping your mind around it since you did so, quite rationally, earlier in the same post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxiumone Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 It is simple the skins hedged a bet last year with the tag they lost that hedge and everyday they dont pay cousins it gets more expensive. End of the year if the skins offered 23 million a year it would be signed now. But Bruce is hung Up on not having the highest paid qb because he is not the best in the league. Here is the thing if they signed him at the end of the year for 23 millon he would only be the second highest paid now. And hell by the start of the year the 3rd of 4th highest paid. What Bruce fails to understand is the value is not today but next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgundyBooger Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Bruce thinks he can retain talent at a discount price like Bill Belichick and seem like some negotiating genius. Cut your losses and take that L, Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDOOM Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 57 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said: Make up your mind. You seem perfectly capable of wrapping your mind around it since you did so, quite rationally, earlier in the same post. Let me explain....Yes, the redskins should not expect him(and i don't think they do so I believe they have or will offer him 24 per) to sign for less than the tag. Also, In my opinion for what KC offers as a QB he should've been more than happy to make 15mill per year let alone 20 because I don't see him being a top QB in this league. I see him more a product of Jay Gruden's offense and the talent around him......I would love to be wrong . @maxiumone It's funny how little we think of this man who is the president of the team. Like he's some idiot who can't understand something us fans can clearly see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purbeast Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 2 hours ago, TheShredSkinz said: Don't know the guarantee but placing the tag on him guarantees 19 and then 24 mill. To place the tag on him then expect him to sign for less a year would be dumb. I don't think our F.O is would still be expecting KC to give a hometown discount based on his actions and reports of him going to SF and seeing him at the game with Kyle. Maybe my mind is set but I just don't see him wanting to be here and can't wrap my mind around him not being grateful for 20mill a yr. being about the 15th QB I'd take if all were available. He seems to be intentially pricing himself out of our reach knowing our team would be significantly behind the 8 giving him the $$ he's asking. I wish I were more optimistic and loved KC as much as VOS did or others but it is what it is. Hope I'm wrong. Well you said he's turned down a $24million a year and I was interested in the source. You ignored that part of my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, TheShredSkinz said: Also, In my opinion for what KC offers as a QB he should've been more than happy to make 15mill per year let alone 20 because I don't see him being a top QB in this league. Go look at the QBs who make $15-20M in this league besides the obvious outliers (Brady and the old contracts). It's not realistic, no matter what level QB you think he is or what he should be "happy" with. 6 minutes ago, purbeast said: Well you said he's turned down a $24million a year and I was interested in the source. You ignored that part of my question. There is no source, we don't even know if that offer's been made, never mind rejected. He basically made that up trying to argue his point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 1 hour ago, maxiumone said: It is simple the skins hedged a bet last year with the tag they lost that hedge and everyday they dont pay cousins it gets more expensive. End of the year if the skins offered 23 million a year it would be signed now. But Bruce is hung Up on not having the highest paid qb because he is not the best in the league. Here is the thing if they signed him at the end of the year for 23 millon he would only be the second highest paid now. And hell by the start of the year the 3rd of 4th highest paid. What Bruce fails to understand is the value is not today but next year Not picking on you directly as many others have made this same statement - There is no way to know if Kirk would have signed for this or any particular offer. No way possible to know that. In fact, if I were his agent, I would have told him the minute the tag was given him last year, that he should not sign any offer until July 17th 2017. That's when he will get the best deal the Redskins are willing to make. Just also goes for those saying Kirk is asking too much. You have no idea. It's all pure speculation. Both sides have been very professional and kept it all behind closed doors. Unless someone close to the negotiation is on this board, no one on this board knows with certainty what the team has offered recently or what Kirk's team has asked for. As has been stated 100 times - several of those by me - this is a negotiation. Both sides will be very far apart early on. So it would not surprise me if the Redskins offered $20M/yr and Cousins side just said - not good enough. In fact it's quite possible Kirk's side has not even given a number they will take. I wouldn't give it to them. July 17th we will know one of the following: 1. It was all posturing and they come to agreement. - I am 90% here. 2. The team never made a reasonable offer so Kirk will play on the tag - I am 9% here. The team would indeed be dumb as hell to let this happen and will deserve all the heat they will inevitably get. 3. Kirk's team was asking crazy money and the team had to do the right thing and let him play on the tag. - I am 1% here only because like everyone else I cannot be certain so it can't be 0%. Need to put down the pitch forks for each other and just be patient for July 17th. That really is the only thing any of us actually knows to be fact, that July 17th we will finally get answers to all the speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Lumber Co. Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Like with everything in life, there are two sides to a story and the truth. I do not think Kirk is as spiteful towards the Redskins as some fans seem to believe. I do however believe that Kirk is a man of principle and is simply expecting to be paid fair market value. Contrary to doomsday Redskins fans, I don't think Bruce is a complete moron, the second coming of Vinny Cerrato, or anything of the sort. I also think linking the Cousins negotiations to any sort of ego battle/pissing contest with Scot is a stretch only cynical, battered skins fans/victims could conjure up. The most obvious reason to poke holes in that argument is that the last thing an egomaniac would want to do is have Kirk walk and win a ring for another team. If Bruce Allen really would go to any length to do the opposite of what Scot wanted, Manusky would not be our D-Coordinator right now either. I do however, think Bruce is a man of principle as well. While in certain instances this has helped the Redskins immensely since his arrival, in a long drawn-out contract negotiation such as this it paints him as the cheap-skate squeaker who is an idiot for not just stroking one of Dan Snyder's checks already. I actually think weve come so far as an organization, that now with things being run properly and keeping things internal that when the media and fanbase is left to speculate they revert to the only explanation they are used to: "dysfunction is afoot at Redskins park!" I know everyone will point to the Scot drama and call me an idiot. But I don't think he was an angel or didn't play a role in that either. I think Bruce is a typical smart businessman that took everything they could learn from him, spit him out, and implemented it. Sure, maybe he didn't like how much credit Scot received as the "savior", and to be honest hes sort of justified because Bruce was the savior before Scot was but was quickly forgotten. But to hell with hurt feelings, I could care less. I'm ranting, and clearly want this to be over and done with already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlesnake88 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 All I know is that if he does sign, the contract will be huge...Somebody should trademark "time to earn that money Kirk" and collect royalties off the game Day threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Lumber Co. Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 I also saw a nugget that the Carr deal all but guarantees that the deal, if signed, will be a short one. This makes perfect sense to me for both sides. Say a 3 year deal instead of 5 im guessing? A 3 year deal reduces the number of years that dead money from the deal would handicap the team in the event that Cousins falls off a cliff statistically or regresses to the mediocre QB some fans still somehow think he is and if Cousins still thinks he is worth more than 24/25 mil per year and Carr didn't do enough to set the market where he feels his value lies, he "settles" for the 3 year deal with full intentions to hold out the third year unless a new contract is negotiated by then, after the QB market and salary cap rises to his standards 2 years from now. I could literally go back and forth with these scenarios forever. Its going to be a long few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Good break down of the contracts (QBs). http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19711539/the-top-quarterback-deals-nfl-teach-us-how-much-people-understand-nfl-contracts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 7 hours ago, DC Lumber Co. said: I also saw a nugget that the Carr deal all but guarantees that the deal, if signed, will be a short one. What was the reasoning or logic behind that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDOOM Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 13 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said: Go look at the QBs who make $15-20M in this league besides the obvious outliers (Brady and the old contracts). It's not realistic, no matter what level QB you think he is or what he should be "happy" with. There is no source, we don't even know if that offer's been made, never mind rejected. He basically made that up trying to argue his point. Brady 20, Arod & Wilson+ Ben 22, Ryan and Eli 21, PR &Cam 21 Tyrod 15 , Dalton 16, Tannehill 19, Alex Smith 17, Stafford 18....... It is more likely he has refused a nice contract than rather than a ****ty one being he was just paid 20 last year. He is -/= to every QB on this list save 1 or 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDOOM Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 14 hours ago, purbeast said: Well you said he's turned down a $24million a year and I was interested in the source. You ignored that part of my question. Common sense. For a resurrection of an earlier point, we'd have to be thick to tag him at 19-24, and not offer him that for a yearly amount......Or somewheres real close. Its been clear from day 1 (and he's basically said as much) he's milking for the most he can possibly get, probably so he'll have more to give to charity or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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