Bruce Allen, Scot McCloughlan, Jay Gruden, and all that stuff like that there

[wit33]

The genius behind the Patriots is it appears first principle theory is applied to many decisions they make.

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02505024

 

Too many organizations and fan bases (Many in here) stick to blanket theories on what's best for the team, situation, time, and future. 

 

The Patroits can give a damn how things are done or have been done, they make the best roster decisions to help win in the now and flexibility for the future. This isn't only applied to front office decisions, their weekly game planning operates in the same mold. Who cares about statistics, each game is treated as it's own entity to provide the best chance to win. They're aren't married to a system (a safe norm for coaches), it's about exploitation of the opponents weaknesses-- Whether through spread attack or 40 carries in a game.

 

They've made many cliche driven football media heads look silly with trading players, releasing players, trading draft picks, taking risks on malcontents etc..

 

All things many in here would lose there mind over, due to it not falling into a safe norm.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taylor 36]

35 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

Also, while Parcells did not Win a Super Bowl without Belichick (as you mention) he did take New England there, after inheriting a bottom feeder of a team.  He build those Pats from scratch.  That is noteworthy and laudable (and for The Record, I have never been a Parcells fan).  His Patriots simply lost to a superior team.  I find no shame in that at all.  Further, he took the New York Jets to the AFC Championship - as far as that Franchise has gone since Broadway Joe.  Not too shabby either.  In my estimation, that's plenty of evidence to suggest that Parcells did fine in his career without Belichick.

 

And I looked it up: Brady & Belichick showed up in New England during the same Offseason.  I was wrong about that.  I admit my error.  But for anyone to suggest that Belichick knew what he was getting in Brady defies reason.  Can we agree that the 6th Rounder was the steal of the Draft?  Sure, but it wasn't due to any prescience on the Patriots' part - that's for sure.  They were fortunate.

 

As for Belichick's record without Brady, it is pretty good.  I, for one, consider that an indictment of the awful AFC East (and yes, I do consider that Matt Cassel year quite a feat - I'll give you that).  For instance, my view of a quality Division is to consider how many teams qualify for The Playoffs from that same Division.  And to a lesser extent, looking at how many teams finish above .500 gives one a true barometer of the strength of any Division.

 

Yes they Win.  Yes they are a Dynasty.  But there have been an awful lot of favorable breaks for those guys.  That cannot be discounted.

I edited out some of your post due to the length and kept the parts I want to respond to.  Please don't think I'm disregarding your other points.

 

I will say to your point about Parcells and the Pats in the SB and the Jets in the AFC Championship that the year prior to taking the Pats to the SB, Parcells and that Pats team lost to Belichick's Browns in the playoffs (let that sink in; I'm sure that saying the Browns beat the Pats in the postseason is something that will not be written again any time soon.  ), and the year the Pats went to the SB was the last season the (original) Browns were in Cleveland.  Belichick was also the DC on the Jets when they went to that AFC Championship game. I'm not trying to split hairs here, and I agree with you that some of this is in the eye of the beholder, but one of the reasons I have felt that Parcells is one of the most overrated coaches is because of these things I've mentioned.

 

I agree that no one knew what they had in Brady.  If they did, they would have been fools to risk waiting to pick in the sixth round.  However, it was Belichick and the Pats that saw something in Brady to give him a chance and bring him in.  There were 198 opportunities for others to do the same, but no one did but Bill. Was it luck? Of course, but, and this also addresses your last point quoted above, every team in NFL history, regardless of how good they are, has had to rely on some luck.  No one wins the SB without having balls bounce their way, injuries either not happening or providing unforeseen opportunities (Brady definitely falls in the latter category), meeting certain opponents at the right time, getting their **** together at the right time, etc.  

 

Again, to each their own, and I leave it at this as to not hijack this thread and continue with a topic that should really be discussed in the ATN forum.  I feel that too many people overlook the job that Belichick did in Cleveland, of all places, and how important/vital a part he was in the success of several other teams.  He has a great resume before having Brady as a starter, and we'll never know if Brady would have become the QB he is if he wasn't drafted by and had the opportunity to work with Belichick.  It is just beyond me how anyone can argue that he isn't one of the greatest to coach the game.  

[Tsailand]

7 hours ago, Diehard Otis said:

Yes, he can Coach.  But this all-time great stuff has to stop!  Just like Phil Jackson, this guy benefited from all-time great talent.

 

He's had final say on the talent for his entire tenure.  So are you saying that he's not an all-time great coach, just an all-time great GM?

 

[Diehard Otis]

1. @Tsailand my position is already laid out (regarding Belichick).  And I do not mean to be flippant with you, but I would refer you back to my earlier posts.

 

That is what I meant.

[TK]

When the **** did this become ExtremePatriots.com? 

[wit33]

4 minutes ago, TK said:

When the **** did this become ExtremePatriots.com? 

 

Great contribution. :/

 

 

[bedlamVR]

5 hours ago, TK said:

When the **** did this become ExtremePatriots.com? 

 

Last tuesday did you not get the memo ? 

 

But this is the kind of point when people talk about how the FO should be structured etc they point to what the majority do, because what we do is different 

 

But also what the Patriots and a bunch of other teams do is different and given the Patriots are doing things differently and dominating and the average team is doing things the 'normal' way then could it not be that the 'normal' way of structuring a FO is wack and teams should be thinking outside the box a little more. 

[pjfootballer]

There was no "Patriot Way" from 1960 to 2000.  They were an average franchise with sucky years, average years and good years.

 

The Patriot Way came about when a certain person was hired on January 27, 2000 and a certain person took over after an injury.

 

Let's see if that "Patriot Way" continues when both are gone. I have my doubts. The "Patriot Way" is a myth.  It basically entails 2 people. Prove to me after they are gone.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

What have you chuckleheads done to my thread?! lol....

[TK]

25 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

What have you chuckleheads done to my thread?! lol....

There was susposedly a memo. We missed it. 

[Jumbo]

 

 

1 hour ago, TK said:

There was susposedly a memo. We missed it. 

 

 

 I keep telling you there's no good reason to be sober during the day, either.

[I Love The Skins]

On 8/11/2017 at 11:55 PM, Tsailand said:

 

23 years ago, right before they switched owners.

 

Little known fact, in Kraft's six seasons without Belichick, they had four winning seasons where they made the playoffs, including two division wins and a Super Bowl appearance.  Which is more than Synder has done in 18 seasons.

 

The idea that the Skins are on the verge of magically flipping into a functional franchise is delusional.  Unless you're Snyder's oncologist and you know something we don't.

 

On 8/11/2017 at 11:55 PM, Tsailand said:

 

23 years ago, right before they switched owners.

 

Little known fact, in Kraft's six seasons without Belichick, they had four winning seasons where they made the playoffs, including two division wins and a Super Bowl appearance.  Which is more than Synder has done in 18 seasons.

 

The idea that the Skins are on the verge of magically flipping into a functional franchise is delusional.  Unless you're Snyder's oncologist and you know something we don't.

I don't think that I just think the love that the Patriots get from the media. is OTT They act like that team has never been dysfunctional.

[I Love The Skins]

I also know a Patriots fan and he says Joe Gibbs is the greatest coach because he was able to win 3 different QB who were not great.

[ILikeBilly]

39 minutes ago, I Love The Skins said:

I also know a Patriots fan and he says Joe Gibbs is the greatest coach because he was able to win 3 different QB who were not great.

Just for fun and revisionist history:  If Belichick had been with the Skins, Joey T would have been the starter 2 years earlier, they would have won against the raiders in the SB and Belichick would have accounted for LT on the infamous flea flicker.  Joey T would have 3 SB rings and would be considered a top 5 QB of all time.....

 

Okay - I can't stand the pats, but Belichick and Brady are the real deal and have been on an incredible run together.  I don't think it is possible for other teams to do what the pats do, because they don't have Belichick  and Brady.  First a team needs to win, then the team can start doing things the pats way.

[TK]

13 hours ago, wit33 said:

Great contribution. :/

3. Spam is strictly prohibited.
The following are some examples of what ES considers spam:

• Very short posts that do not add value to the topic.

 

[Cliffmark1]

18 minutes ago, ILikeBilly said:

Just for fun and revisionist history:  If Belichick had been with the Skins, Joey T would have been the starter 2 years earlier, they would have won against the raiders in the SB and Belichick would have accounted for LT on the infamous flea flicker.  Joey T would have 3 SB rings and would be considered a top 5 QB of all time.....

 

Okay - I can't stand the pats, but Belichick and Brady are the real deal and have been on an incredible run together.  I don't think it is possible for other teams to do what the pats do, because they don't have Belichick  and Brady.  First a team needs to win, then the team can start doing things the pats way.

Their owner also does the right things.  It's not just Brady and Belichick.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

58 minutes ago, I Love The Skins said:

 

I don't think that I just think the love that the Patriots get from the media. is OTT They act like that team has never been dysfunctional.

Just as nobody wants to hear about our 3 Super Bowls with the last being 25 years ago, nobody really cares to hear about how the Pats were wack a few decades ago.  The Pats have more than made up for any dysfunction they had however long ago with the dynasty they've built in the salary cap era for over a decade.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, bedlamVR said:

 

Last tuesday did you not get the memo ? 

 

But this is the kind of point when people talk about how the FO should be structured etc they point to what the majority do, because what we do is different 

 

But also what the Patriots and a bunch of other teams do is different and given the Patriots are doing things differently and dominating and the average team is doing things the 'normal' way then could it not be that the 'normal' way of structuring a FO is wack and teams should be thinking outside the box a little more. 

 

Outside the box and different could represent just about anything though.  And their version of "different" fundamentally IMO is different than Dan's version. 

 

I think the point that oddly gets lost sometimes in this discussion is that this isn't a new rodeo for Dan.  Lets see how that outside the box thinker owner does it.  Lets at least give the dude a chance?  I get the sentiment but I don't see how it applies even a little bit.  The reality is we got about a 20 year sample of going about it in a different way with much more failure than success.   This isn't the first Police Academy movie.   We are watching Police Academy 18.    Maybe if I were in my teens or early 20s, it would all feel fresh and new.    But I've lived through the hey it looks a bit weird but just give it a chance drill again and again and again and again. 

 

The Patriots on the other hand are a model of success. Their version of different works.  And their version of success doesn't look anything like the Redskins way from what I've encoded.  They have continually had some of the most highly regarded personnel guys in the league in that building including now.   You won't find for example the Patriots chase out a John Schneider type out of the building for Vinny Cerrato or the number of odd things that have gone down with this FO over the years.

 

If the Patriots model becomes: 

 

A.  A non personnel guy (not a coach or personnel guy) making the final personnel calls 

B.  We don't have anyone in our FO personnel wise who is touted among the best in the league at what they do.  

C.  We have an owner who has admitted they liked to get involve with personnel decisions at least in the past and others have said he still likes to make strong recommendations from time to time and is still impatient

 

Then our "out of the box" model will start looking more like theirs.  Right now, they are night and day.  The only thing I see in common with their structure and ours is that they don't have someone with the title of GM.  Belichick is the defacto GM but he seems to constantly have some of the best in the business helping him make the calls.    If I start reading Doug Williams is now considered an elite talent evaluator or Scott Campbell or whomever and Jay leapfrogs Bruce on the personnel hierarchy -- then we got some similarities. 

 

https://www.patspulpit.com/2017/1/6/14178370/should-nick-caserio-be-the-patriots-first-general-manager-since-1990

 

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/nick-caserio-of-new-england-patriots-best-available-nfl-executive

Curran: Caserio the best GM for any open job, but he'd better not leave

By Tom E. Curran January 02, 2017 3:0

 

Four NFL franchises currently have their rosters run by former Patriots executives.

And in Detroit, Atlanta, Tennessee and Tampa Bay things are either looking up or already there. First-year GMs Bob Quinn (Lions) and John Robinson (Titans) both saw improvement (7-9 to 9-7 and a playoff berth for Detroit; 3-13 to 9-7 for the Titans).

Jason Licht, whose Patriots roots aren’t quite as deep (two tours of duty in New England, the second from 2009-2011), is overseeing the impressive rise of the Bucs (9-7). And in Atlanta, the men that helped build the roster that won three Super Bowls in four seasons with the Patriots -- Scott Pioli and Thomas Dimitroff -- have guided the Falcons to an 11-5 season.

And that brings us to Nick Caserio. As all these guys who worked under him have quick success and the guys he learned under keep plugging along, Caserio is still here.

Still here even though he’s among the best execs in the league and has been for a while.

Putting it plainly, there is no personnel man in the league has a better resume than he does when it comes to exhausting all avenues of player acquisition.

[I Love The Skins]

1 hour ago, ILikeBilly said:

Just for fun and revisionist history:  If Belichick had been with the Skins, Joey T would have been the starter 2 years earlier, they would have won against the raiders in the SB and Belichick would have accounted for LT on the infamous flea flicker.  Joey T would have 3 SB rings and would be considered a top 5 QB of all time.....

 

Okay - I can't stand the pats, but Belichick and Brady are the real deal and have been on an incredible run together.  I don't think it is possible for other teams to do what the pats do, because they don't have Belichick  and Brady.  First a team needs to win, then the team can start doing things the pats way.

We don't know that though for sure. Belichick was at best a average head coach before Tom Brady arrived. Brady is the real deal IMO.

[I Love The Skins]

Sorry  I have despised the Patriots since 1990 when the Lisa Olson incident happened. Yes Iit was before Robert Kraft brought them but I haven't forgotten it.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, I Love The Skins said:

We don't know that though for sure. Belichick was at best a average head coach before Tom Brady arrived. Brady is the real deal IMO.

 

A franchise QB (especially of Brady's caliber) can cure a lot of team problems.   Not having a franchise QB can drag a franchise down for years.   It's why I can't just see the Kirk contract nonsense as just one thing in the soup.  IMO it is the overriding be all and end all thing with this team.  I don't care how many Zach Browns we sign if we got nothing at QB.  

 

I do think Belichick is a good coach.  But your talent/personnel is more important IMO than coaching and that goes quadruple when it comes to Qbs.  Tom Brady can make almost any competent coach look really good.

[skinfan2k]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

A franchise QB (especially of Brady's caliber) can cure a lot of team problems.   Not having a franchise QB can drag a franchise down for years.   It's why I can't just see the Kirk contract nonsense as just one thing in the soup.  IMO it is the overriding be all and end all thing with this team.  I don't care how many Zach Browns we sign if we got nothing at QB.  

 

I do think Belichick is a good coach.  But your talent/personnel is more important IMO than coaching and that goes quadruple when it comes to Qbs.  Tom Brady can make almost any competent coach look really good.

Not just a franchise QB, maybe the best QB of all time.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinfan2k said:

Not just a franchise QB, maybe the best QB of all time.  

 

I agree.  Brady is going to likely make any HC look great.   I don't think you have a shot at the big dance without a top 10 type QB at least not these days.

[bowhunter]

2 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

Not just a franchise QB, maybe the best QB of all time.  

Who also leaves franchise QB money on the table for the team to spend elsewhere..

[TSO]

20 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

Who also leaves franchise QB money on the table for the team to spend elsewhere..

 

After how many years of being paid among the highest of salaries? 

 

He has earned more money from NFL contracts than any football player whose name doesn't end with Manning. It's almost $200 million, if I recall correctly!

 

Within that time span, he's had multiple record-breaking contracts. The one he signed in 2010 before the recent one you're talking about made him the highest paid player in the NFL. Yup.

 

How anyone can point to his contract as is now - a complete and total anomaly in the NFL due to many factors specific to his case - as proof of anything is simply beyond me. Yet, it keeps happening.