Bruce Allen, Scot McCloughlan, Jay Gruden, and all that stuff like that there

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

This is probably more appropriate in the random thought thread but it pertains to the topic...

 

Bruce Allen hammers out the location for a new stadium in the next six months and retreats to his new west coast estate.

Scot comes back and takes over the front office.

 

Who's with me?

[Reaper Skins]

26 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is probably more appropriate in the random thought thread but it pertains to the topic...

 

Bruce Allen hammers out the location for a new stadium in the next six months and retreats to his new west coast estate.

Scot comes back and takes over the front office.

 

Who's with me?

I would do this in a heartbeat, with the condition that Scott hires me on as official divisional spy and conspiracy analyst.  Sadly, I don't think Dan would swallow his pride.

[Taylor 36]

18 hours ago, Cliffmark1 said:

Their owner also does the right things.  It's not just Brady and Belichick.

You mean he stays out of the way and lets Bill do what ever the hell he wants?  Ok, so, Kraft has contributed .001% (unless you want to consider signing the checks of the players that Bill brings in part of it), and Bill and Brady make up the other 99.991%. The problem with Snyder is not that he won't let the football people run the show; he has done that.  The problem is the people he has hired to run the show when he's allowed it aren't much better than he is at making the decisions.  So, with that said, I have to give Kraft more credit for having the foresight to hire Belichick.  Beyond that, he just stays out of the way and lets the coaches and players do their thing.

[Cliffmark1]

13 hours ago, Taylor 36 said:

You mean he stays out of the way and lets Bill do what ever the hell he wants?  Ok, so, Kraft has contributed .001% (unless you want to consider signing the checks of the players that Bill brings in part of it), and Bill and Brady make up the other 99.991%. The problem with Snyder is not that he won't let the football people run the show; he has done that.  The problem is the people he has hired to run the show when he's allowed it aren't much better than he is at making the decisions.  So, with that said, I have to give Kraft more credit for having the foresight to hire Belichick.  Beyond that, he just stays out of the way and lets the coaches and players do their thing.

a few thoughts with all due respect and no disrespect intended:

 

1) i think someone posted the w/l before and after kraft. its obviously quite different. 

 

2) i am not sure how you "know" dan isnt running the show. i would disagree based on the SM debacle  and what happened with Marty. 

 

3) i think you could pair cousins and belicheck and also get 3 superbowl wins. when the pats dont have brady they do fairly well. 

 

4) i think the previous 25 years before snyder we had a lot more success. 

 

5) i dont think the redskins will be successful under snyder (more than 13 wins or a sb). i hope to be wrong. 

 

6) it leads me to believe maybe staying out of the way and hiring someone is enough -- I would guess there is also culture and corporate practices and goals they set. 

[Skinsinparadise]

On the Scot front for those interested, he's going on 106.7 about 1 pm.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I take it there was nothing juicy provided by Scot.  Anyone listen?  

[Conn]

5 hours ago, Reaper Skins said:

Sadly, I don't think Dan would swallow his pride.

 

I don't think Dan had anything to do with firing Scot. That was Bruce's call, and he's the only one Scot seems to have issues with. 

[Reaper Skins]

3 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

I don't think Dan had anything to do with firing Scot. That was Bruce's call, and he's the only one Scot seems to have issues with. 

In the scenario where Bruce is gone, I'd assume Dan would have some input in replacing him no?  And replacing him with someone the organization just let go doesn't sound likely.  It would be an admittance that the organization made a mistake.  I'd love for it to happen, I just don't think it will.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said:

In the scenario where Bruce is gone, I'd assume Dan would have some input in replacing him no?  And replacing him with someone the organization just let go doesn't sound likely.  It would be an admittance that the organization made a mistake.  I'd love for it to happen, I just don't think it will.

 

I agree in that I don't see it happening but for different reasons.

 

Even if Bruce 'retires', he's still Dan's buddy.  I can't see Dan bringing Scot back to replace Bruce and giving him the green light to do as he pleases.  More likely is that Doug Williams gets promoted once again and his once good name goes to crap.

[757SeanTaylor21]

I think that Dan snyder wants to challenge the Broncos with promoting Doug Williams as GM...like broncos did with John Elway is with broncos and hope that in the second quarter Doug just let's it rip and we score 42 blue chip players that become all time greats.

[Conn]

48 minutes ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

I think that Dan snyder wants to challenge the Broncos with promoting Doug Williams as GM...like broncos did with John Elway is with broncos and hope that in the second quarter Doug just let's it rip and we score 42 blue chip players that become all time greats.

 

Doug Williams doesn't have the power Elway was immediately given in that organization. It was his, from the top down, and he was the final decision maker. Doug doesn't have power here, he has a nice nameplate on his door. 

[Thinking Skins]

23 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Doug Williams doesn't have the power Elway was immediately given in that organization. It was his, from the top down, and he was the final decision maker. Doug doesn't have power here, he has a nice nameplate on his door. 

 

No disrespect intended Conn, but I really hate this line. Even if Bruce almighty did Scot wrong in the firing, Scot admitted that they followed his plan this offseason. Scot's never said anything about a move he wanted to make that Bruce overruled, or a power struggle. Now Doug is in a top position, right after that we saw some promotions including AJ Smith's son being promoted, which Doug spoke about in his press conferences. Then we go out and hire some new scouts. What's the evidence that Allen isn't giving Doug power? 

 

This really seems like one of those statements that gets repeated over and over again by fans that it becomes accepted as truth, but whenever I read/hear it I think of it as not only a shot at Allen but a shot at Doug. Its like you're calling him incompetent (not necessarily at his job, but at realizing that he's being used as "a nameplace on the door").

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

If you really believe Doug was promoted because he was the best guy for the job, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Speaking for myself only, I have no disdain towards Doug and wish him the best. I'd prefer to remember him as a Super Bowl champion, not the scapegoat if and when Ashburn burns down.

 

Whether he's competent or not remains to be seen but his resume doesn't suggest he is.  Many of us predicted this setup the moment Scot was ousted for a reason and it's not because Doug is the best guy for the job.  

[Conn]

29 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

No disrespect intended Conn, but I really hate this line. Even if Bruce almighty did Scot wrong in the firing, Scot admitted that they followed his plan this offseason. Scot's never said anything about a move he wanted to make that Bruce overruled, or a power struggle. Now Doug is in a top position, right after that we saw some promotions including AJ Smith's son being promoted, which Doug spoke about in his press conferences. Then we go out and hire some new scouts. What's the evidence that Allen isn't giving Doug power? 

 

This really seems like one of those statements that gets repeated over and over again by fans that it becomes accepted as truth, but whenever I read/hear it I think of it as not only a shot at Allen but a shot at Doug. Its like you're calling him incompetent (not necessarily at his job, but at realizing that he's being used as "a nameplace on the door").

 

1. I didn't say Scot didn't have power (at some point at least), I said Doug doesn't have power. He's not leading the FO, it's a group decision like it's been for a while. Doug is in the room but he's not a traditional GM, this is well known.  He's not in the same position that Elway is, or other traditional top FO personnel guys.

 

2. I could and have made the case that Doug Williams is incompetent at his job. He was a bad "hire" (really just a title change), and I don't really care to repeat all the arguments that were had when he was promoted. Were you on vacation during this hiring process and the aftermath? I'm hardly alone on this. He wasn't the best choice, and he wasn't the most qualified--its very easy to make the argument that he wasn't qualified at all. 

 

As with the Manusky hiring, it was easy to predict the Doug Williams promotion the moment Scot was fired, and many of us did. It's classic Redskins under Bruce Allen. 

[Thinking Skins]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

If you really believe Doug was promoted because he was the best guy for the job, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Speaking for myself only, I have no disdain towards Doug and wish him the best. I'd prefer to remember him as a Super Bowl champion, not the scapegoat if and when Ashburn burns down.

 

Whether he's competent or not remains to be seen but his resume doesn't suggest he is.  Many of us predicted this setup the moment Scot was ousted for a reason and it's not because Doug is the best guy for the job.  

 

Believe what you want and call me a fool for believing what I want. I don't care about that. But neither of us, and nobody who has spoken on the promotions, was in the room when Doug and others were interviewed, so nobody knows what was said. But we have some "fan stories" going on around here like Bruce is the new Vinny and now Doug is a nameplate that aren't backed by fact and serve to hurt their credibility. Fans can and will argue all day that Bruce deserves it, but what has Doug done to show that he is a nameplate? This man does have a resume and the fact that you don't think it makes him the top guy for the job doesn't matter. You weren't doing the hiring. He has served in front offices before, coached college teams (Morehouse and Grambling twice, including leading Grambling to two SWAC titles).

 

This reminds me of when Gruden was hired and people said that because they predicted it, that it meant that Gruden wasn't a good coach or didn't deserve the job. They were quick to name other coaches who were "better qualified", but ignored Gruden's playig and coaching success in the NFL as well as the Arena Football League. Now its kinda a side story because our team (on the field) has looked good lately, he didn't have the same type of critics as Doug when he first came here. 

[757SeanTaylor21]

You must've missed my sarcasm in my post conn...as I was surely joking...lol. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Believe what you want and call me a fool for believing what I want. I don't care about that. But neither of us, and nobody who has spoken on the promotions, was in the room when Doug and others were interviewed, so nobody knows what was said. But we have some "fan stories" going on around here like Bruce is the new Vinny and now Doug is a nameplate that aren't backed by fact and serve to hurt their credibility. Fans can and will argue all day that Bruce deserves it, but what has Doug done to show that he is a nameplate? This man does have a resume and the fact that you don't think it makes him the top guy for the job doesn't matter. You weren't doing the hiring. He has served in front offices before, coached college teams (Morehouse and Grambling twice, including leading Grambling to two SWAC titles).

 

This reminds me of when Gruden was hired and people said that because they predicted it, that it meant that Gruden wasn't a good coach or didn't deserve the job.

You are confusing "fan stories" with direct quotes from Doug about his pitch to Bruce.  Name me one qualified candidate that was interviewed for GM with the Redskins.  You can't do it.  The extensive search we heard about by all reports didn't leave Ashburn.

 

Jay was a buddy hire that just so happens to currently be working out.  With that said, Jays name was being talked about for head coaching gigs elsewhere because of his accomplishments as an OC.  Nobody was beating our doors down to hire Doug as a GM anywhere ever.  The situations are not the same at all.

[Reaper Skins]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Fans can and will argue all day that Bruce deserves it, but what has Doug done to show that he is a nameplate? 

How about when he straight up told the press that during his interview he specifically told Allen he didn't want the responsibilities of a GM?

 

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/washington-redskins/doug-williams-doesnt-want-be-gm-he-doesnt-want-be-head-coach-either

 

"What makes Williams' promotion perhaps most interesting is that he was very specific that he didn't want to be GM. He only wants to be in charge of personnel - finding good players - and not all the ancillary things that fall in line with the general manager position."

 

 

 

[TSO]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Jay was a buddy hire that just so happens to currently be working out.  With that said, Jays name was being talked about for head coaching gigs elsewhere because of his accomplishments as an OC.  Nobody was beating our doors down to hire Doug as a GM anywhere ever.  The situations are not the same at all.

 

Spot on. Though the hiring process can be questioned for sure, the Gruden hire works because he was more than qualified on his own. He would've been a good hire on any team, and was sought after. One can even say that, in this one instance, the "Tampa Connection" was a huge positive.  

 

As for Doug, we all hope he does a great job... but there can be no doubt his resumé is lacking in terms of personnel. To compare Gruden's as a coach before he was hired here to Doug's as a talent evaluator before he was hired to head that department... well, it's not even close. 

[DC Lumber Co.]

48 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said:

How about when he straight up told the press that during his interview he specifically told Allen he didn't want the responsibilities of a GM?

 

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/washington-redskins/doug-williams-doesnt-want-be-gm-he-doesnt-want-be-head-coach-either

 

"What makes Williams' promotion perhaps most interesting is that he was very specific that he didn't want to be GM. He only wants to be in charge of personnel - finding good players - and not all the ancillary things that fall in line with the general manager position."

 

 

 

 

FWIW, Scot didn't want any of those duties in San Fran either. Said he hated dealing with things that didn't involve roster construction. I don't think it's that strange for guys to only want personnel duties and wouldn't consider it a knock on Doug whatsoever. I personally think delegating things that aren't your strengths to others who specialize in said area is quite ideal actually.

[TSO]

1 minute ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

 

FWIW, Scot didn't want any of those duties in San Fran either. Said he hated dealing with things that didn't involve roster construction. I don't think it's that strange for guys to only want personnel duties and wouldn't consider it a knock on Doug whatsoever. I personally think delegating things that aren't your strengths to others who specialize in said area is quite ideal actually.

 

The difference being, Scot was granted final say on personnel whereas Doug hasn't been. 

 

Now this is the part where we get into the argument regarding final say and how it doesn't mean much even though virtually every successful franchise has a good to great personnel guy with that power. Weeeeeee!  

[Cliffmark1]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Now its kinda a side story because our team (on the field) has looked good lately, he didn't have the same type of critics as Doug when he first came here. 

our team looked great this last game... 

 

[DC Lumber Co.]

16 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

The difference being, Scot was granted final say on personnel whereas Doug hasn't been. 

 

Now this is the part where we get into the argument regarding final say and how it doesn't mean much even though virtually every successful franchise has a good to great personnel guy with that power. Weeeeeee!  

 

No sense in arguing it really. I was just contributing a tidbit of info because I don't agree with Doug Williams being presented as another puppet with no talent or something. People are free to run with whatever narrative they want. Also don't agree with the mental gymnastics of discrediting the hiring of Jay Gruden's as simply a "buddy hire". 

 

I have no idea how much input Doug has had on any of the players selected by the team recently other than Anthony Lanier being his hand selected UDFA project which is looking good right now. Everything I read was that Doug was well respected as a talent evaluator and didn't want anything handed to him based on his name. Just curious if hires of other teams get discredited so easily when I'd be willing to bet you could frame them as "buddy" hires one way or another when the entire league is basically a buddy system to begin with.

 

But people will be allowed to never give the team the benefit of the doubt based on recent history until they prove otherwise and win. I understand that about as good as anyone.

 

[TSO]

9 minutes ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

 

No sense in arguing it really. I was just contributing a tidbit of info because I don't agree with Doug Williams being presented as another puppet with no talent or something. People are free to run with whatever narrative they want. Also don't agree with the mental gymnastics of discrediting the hiring of Jay Gruden's as simply a "buddy hire". 

 

I have no idea how much input Doug has had on any of the players selected by the team recently other than Anthony Lanier being his hand selected UDFA project which is looking good right now. Everything I read was that Doug was well respected as a talent evaluator and didn't want anything handed to him based on his name. Just curious if hires of other teams get discredited so easily when I'd be willing to bet you could frame them as "buddy" hires one way or another when the entire league is basically a buddy system to begin with.

 

 

 

I think we're arguing two points now.

 

First off, don't get too offended. I was poking fun at this because I've been through it a ton of times already this offseason. It wasn't directed at you. 

 

Secondly, the entire "buddy hire" thing is definitely overplayed. I agree, most NFL teams certainly hire based on past experience and connections. It's the norm in any business, as well. I was simply pointing out that, even if one were to make the case that Gruden was nothing more than a "buddy hire", that would only be a knock on the hiring process of Snyder/Allen and not on Gruden himself, as he was a qualified candidate whether or not they were "buddies". 

 

Now, with all that said about buddy hires, you still want to hire qualified people. It's fine when your buddy is totally qualified, like in Gruden's (theoretical) case. It's not okay when you bypass others who are more qualified for someone less so just because they're connected. 

 

That's the argument regarding Doug. Furthermore, there is a question about the way they restructured the FO, as well. It's currently structured in a manner that has lead to all sorts of problems for the Skins in the past as well as being one that differs from the vast majority of successful franchises. 

 

So, yeah, it's completely fair to be concerned, and significantly so. Let's just hope that the concern ends up unwarranted and everyone does a wonderful job... but it's okay to look at things skeptically when the FO itself, in this case, gives us plenty of reason to.  

[FrFan]

17 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

On the Scot front for those interested, he's going on 106.7 about 1 pm.

Thank you for the info. Link for those like me who missed it.