Bruce Allen, Scot McCloughlan, Jay Gruden, and all that stuff like that there

[Califan007 The Constipated]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

The fact that Sleepy EARNED the nickname sleepy is tragic. 

 

 

If not for Sleepy, the term "Pimp Cup" would have never entered the ExtremeSkins lexicon lol...

[skins4eva]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We thought we had servicable players on the DL, and we had NOTHING on the OL.  And we had a QB that we needed to evaluate, because the story was he was fine, the OL was terrible.

 

If they had picked Williams, and the OL had struggled again, there would have been even more of a clamor that the OL was the problem, and it wasn't Griffin who was holding the ball too long.

 

SM had to do everything he could in that off-season to put as much around Griffin as he could to see if he could play.  It turns out he couldn't.  And we ended up with a pro-bowl guard. 

 

I wouldn't have minded either pick, but I can definitely see why SM made the Sherff pick.  And I buy the logic, and I'm fine with the outcome.  

 

I would probably have been fine the other way as well.  

 

Agreed.  We can argue the merits on Sherff and who was available at the time, but the fact is that we have a pro bowl caliber player at the position.  I understand draft value, etc., but with the way things have gone for this franchise, I'm of the mind that any positive outcome should be celebrated. 

[Skinsinparadise]

This isn't directed at anyone specific but a combination of different posts, I've seen over time.  IMO the Scot drafts, Bruce drafts while represent entertaining discussion loses the forest for the trees.  Also, the arguments can be easily manipulated.  For example, some of Scot critics love to blame him on random bad luck like injuries.  Hey Jarrett might have looked like a great pick but he got injured so it didn't count. So he bombed on it.  Doctson hurts his achilles = Scot's fault.  

 

Matt Jones didn't pan out, looks like Robert Kelley did.  One counts, one doesn't.    Which one doesn't count?  Well, of course its the bad thing not the good thing. Even on the Cravens stuff, I think its a reach to blame Scot.  But OK lets play along, some have said D. Everett is the better player anyway.  Everett was one of Scot's signings.  So again one counts, one doesn't.   Lets harp on the bad.  Everybody finds good starters as undrafted free agents -- there is no art to that at all, no research, nada, these guys just fall out of the sky.  All GMs say so. 

 

Now, if we want to pick on Bruce's drafts using similar logic as what I've seen at times people use to kill Scot's drafts, then here goes:  the drafts with Bruce working with Shanny were mostly hit and miss, nothing special.  The draft pick trades under Bruce were egregious in epic proportions. Vinny Cerrato territory.  In Tampa, the drafts ranged from mediocre to bad.  His best draft was 2014 when Scot was an advisor.  

 

And what was so special about 2014?  Breeland has been hot and cold.  Trent Murphy is out for the year (I guess if Doctson's injuries are Scot's fault, than Murphy's injury is on Bruce ) and Trent had one good year, that's it, and we have to wonder if that year was PED driven considering the context.   Spencer Long might not remain the starting center on the team and PFF rates him as a major weak link as to the running game.  So that leaves as with Morgan Moses.  Nice player.  Not a pro bowler, though.  

 

Do I personally feel that harshly about those 2014 players.  Not at all.   I am rooting for every Redskin, I don't care one whit who drafted them.  But its easy to go tit for tat if we judge these drafts in anger.  My one defense of Scot in this ball of soup that's relevant to the bottom line is this:  if we are going to throw our personnel guy out the door when in 2015 he landed 3 starters and would have been 4 if not for the injury for Jarrett and technically its ending up to be 4 with Everett who was signed then.  That's actually statistically speaking a very good draft.  Kiper after that 2015 season ended called it the most productive draft in the NFL.  The 2016 draft is really all about Doctson at this point.  He is looking good this week.  Hopefully he stays healthy and if he does:  we got Fuller starting at nickle and Ioannidis was one of the surprises of camp and is in the DT rotation.  And yeah Robert Kelley, too.   And they added three 2017 draft picks in the mix of trading down in that draft one of which was used to land Perine.   If Doctson plays well, its a good draft statistically speaking -- if he doesn't its at least mediocre IMO.

 

Lets be pessimistic and say Doctson ends up a bust and the draft does land on mediocre.  So what?  John Schneider who considered the best in the business has had a couple of outright awful drafts.  It happens. His job wasn't in jeopardy for it.  As Parcells-Kiper say if you land 2-3 starters in a draft, its a great one.  You are going to have more misses than hits.  If Bruce ever hires a real personnel guy to run drafts here again -- and the expectation here is that every draft is going to be good and most of the picks are going to pan out.  You'll always be disappointed.  It just doesn't work that way.  If you don't believe me, look up the statistical ratio of success in the draft per round.  It's staggering.       

 

When you land 4-5 bonafide starters in a draft, its historic.  People talk about it for decades.  The reason why Beathard's 1981 draft is lauded to this day wasn't because he did it all the time but that year he found more guys than usual, that was the Redskins best draft ever.  Not common at all.   But yeah if we are looking for our version of robo-cop GM -- a dude who just nails it all the time, foresees injuries before they happen, will never have a bad run, etc -- we are not going to find that person IMO.  So that leads to the point at hand for me -- that is, the top personnel guys in the league aren't superman but that means we don't need a guy like that?  To me that's the operative point.  Building a team takes time.  It's being patient with a plan, relying on multiple drafts, and not panicking.   

 

I think the Bruce versus Scot debate is wildly off topic as for the bottom line.  And I've been consistent on it.   Bruce isn't making personnel calls in effect.  He never talks about "his" picks.  Bruce has been about selling a system where there isn't a true personnel guy running it.    In interviews, Bruce's take is usually a variation of heck I trust my personnel guys on staff to come up with the personnel calls, yeah I have final say but that's just a formality, I don't overrule them, etc.

 

Scot's gone.  He's irrelevant.  To me the debate has zero to do with Bruce versus Scot and has everything to do with what type of FO structure do we want.  

 

 

[DC Lumber Co.]

@Skinsinparadise couldnt agree more with your post. From draft expectations to me finding it pretty hilarious that its been this issue with Cravens that has "broke the camels back" on the perception of GMSM. I dont think it can be argued that there is a much larger percentage of ES'ers who are now outspoken with openly questioning just how good Scot was or that his firing may have been more justified than originally thought. 

 

Nonetheless, the same points you bring up in your post are the exact reasons I've been so giddy about our most recent draft. I understand expectations should be tempered, but I can't shake the feeling that this draft class could be historically great if they all pan out the way I expect. Getting role players like Holsey and Harvey-Clemons is just the icing on the cake to guys like Allen and Anderson, who have the highest floor I think ive ever seen out of Redskins rookies. I couldn't be more confident that neither will become busts.

 

All before even factoring in the question marks on the ceilings of guys like Perine, Roullier, Sprinkle, and Nicholson.

 

Dan please don't blow up the FO/HC roster before we get to see this crop of rookies develop! Hold your patience just a couple more years...

 

[bedlamVR]

Good great another reason to revisit the all Scott Mcgloughlan love in thread ... . 

 

but Bruce is the bad guy and yet he was the one to bring Scott in in the first place .

 

It was Bruce's vision to improve our scouting and personnel departments from day one but that was stopped by the Shanaclan  but is something we have bolstered consistently since he was in charge . 

 

People questioning Scott do have a point though - each of The picks selected while Scott was here as high day one / two picks who have been accused at some point of having no passion for the game ..I am still optimist about Doctson but his passion for the game has been openly questioned from day one ... Preston Smith has all the tools to be a force and flashes greatness but his lack of passion and consistency frustrate everyone ... Matt Jones big running back who played without any ferocity who's passion was constantly questioned has finally been booted and now Su'a . 

 

Considering that being football players was something of a Scott mantra and being mentally and physically tough was an identity he wanted to cultivate - attributes none of the players he selected exhibit ( I also know questions have been asked of BrandonScherifs love for the game - especially considering he was one of the few absentees from Trent Williams hogs camp and his oddly shockingly bad camp / preseason this year) 

 

Oddly - or not so oddly it is the later round pick who work hard to fight for a place in the team that are the success ... but it is very rare to find your studs in those players ... hard workers - over achievers but not Stars ... 

 

 

But I cannot blame Scott for this because no man works in a vacuum and these were team decisions .. but they cannot account for how players will mentally react to the changes the step from collage to the pros require ... 

 

 

[dyst]

I don't have an issue with our drafts entirely. We draft good/decent players but we need to draft blue chip players.

 

Dallas as an example just on offense has a few olinemen, Dez, Zeke and Dak as blue chip players (yes I know two of them are rookies and we don't know what the future holds). On offense we have Trent and Reed, maybe Kirk if we add him. Need more of that.

 

Although guys like Kerrigan, Preston and Moses are nice to have, we need to find the Watts, Kalil Macks, Aarond Donalds etc when we draft.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

While there is still time for player development of the 15-16 drafts, it's looking more and more like the McCloughan era was pretty much the exact same as every other big thing to happen to this forsaken team in my lifetime:  overhyped, under-delivered and ends in embarrassing fashion leaving all involved with egg on their faces while the fans stand there holding the **** sandwich wondering why  

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, bedlamVR said:

Good great another reason to revisit the all Scott Mcgloughlan love in thread ... . 

 

but Bruce is the bad guy and yet he was the one to bring Scott in in the first place .

 

It was Bruce's vision to improve our scouting and personnel departments from day one but that was stopped by the Shanaclan  but is something we have bolstered consistently since he was in charge . 

 

You do not bolster your case by trashing the 2014 draft ( Bruce's draft) because a)  people (you included) to trash Bruce and the curent front office team have essentially leaned heavily on the fact Bruce and co cribbed from Scotts scouting service that year ... and b.) you are doing the exact same thing - hating on Redskins you are accusing others of doing ... 

 

Edit

 

 

 

Not really wasting my time with most of this. It's your opinion and that's fine. I will just address 2 things - I actually agree Bruce did a good job drafting in 2014 and have made that case more than once. So please stop lumping everyone who liked Scot in the same bucket. Generalizations a generally bull****.

 

Second, people need to get off this Doctson has no passion for the game utter nonsense. You really have no idea what you are talking about. First, saying his passion has been questioned since day one is totally false. Chris Cooley made one statement then recanted and said he had it wrong. However, every time someone wants to trash Scot they trot that out as gospel and act like everyone close to the team said the same thing. It's bull****, complete and utter bull****.

 

At this point, anyone questioning his passion for the game only does so because they are too lazy to look at his actual history because making that baseless claim fits a larger narrative. Josh Doctson had to fight so hard just to make it to the NFL. He has been extremely unlucky with injury. He has fought hard to get back. But you need to look back at his journey to the NFL. He overcame so much - yes including a bout of homesickness. But he never stopped working to make it to the NFL. He never stopped working on getting better.

 

Interestingly enough many people said the same thing about Chris Thompson. He kept getting injured and many were acting like he really didn't want to be in the NFL. Fortunately the team was more patient.

 

Who knows if Doctson will ever get a chance to contribute. But if he does not, it's not because of heart or passion for the game, it's because of injury which just happens sometimes.

[bedlamVR]

7 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not really wasting my time with most of this. 

 

To be absolutely honest with you I totally agree with you ... that post was terrible ... I have no idea what I was thinking and while that may sound sarcastic it really isn't ... 

 

i cannot not blame Scott because if these failures because no one can have future vision ... no one knows how any given player or any given person is going to react to  challenges life throws at them . 

 

I also think the critism is unfair unfair of the players - all I was pointing out is there had been a lot of criticism of the players taken at the top of the last few drafts . I did not make it clear that I was not critisising them. 

 

My bad . 

 

Just all round my Bad . 

 

Appoligies to anyone who read my last post ... 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

@Skinsinparadise couldnt agree more with your post. From draft expectations to me finding it pretty hilarious that its been this issue with Cravens that has "broke the camels back" on the perception of GMSM. I dont think it can be argued that there is a much larger percentage of ES'ers who are now outspoken with openly questioning just how good Scot was or that his firing may have been more justified than originally thought. 

 

 

I agree.  Let these guys develop.  the 2014 draft for example looked in year 1 to be awful.  In year 2 it was good.  This summer questionable again.  What's the difference between each period?  2014 season -- the sample size was too short.  There is a reason why draft geeks say like a mantra you need 2-3 seasons to judge a draft.  This year brings the patience things back to play for the 2014 draft.  That's fine.   Patience is a virtue in team building.  Panic = losing.  

 

If you want to kill that draft by mere spin.  It's easy as it gets.  Right now, technically, at this given time we got 1 starter playing from the 2014 draft.   I can run it down easily.   But its unfair.  It's not patient.   And you can't blame the powers that be on bad luck.  It's a fact of life in football.    Luck is the operative reason why many say the key to be successful in a draft is to have more shots at the well.  Multiple draft picks.   All teams for the most part have bad luck in the mix -- namely injuries.  It's football.  Will Fuller the guy taken a pick ahead of Doctson, got hurt 2 years in a row.  What a dummy the Texans GM was for not foreseeing that?  

 

Really good GMs IMO have a plan, stick with it and don't panic.  As Doc Walker said recently about Doctson, we've seen him in practice he's a stud, just let him heal and he will do it on the field.  Knock on wood, it looks like he's getting going.  Also good GMs IMO do things that we gloss over -- but are a really big deal.  For example trading down and giving up a 4th rounder in the 2016 draft to load up on the more attractive 2017 draft -- is a big deal IMO.  But I don't think I've noticed it ever it gets a mention in the discussion about that draft.  Yeah we added 3 picks, who cares, does that even mean anything good?   

 

Finding starters via undrafted FAs, also a big deal IMO.  But somehow that doesn't count either.  The two picks he got hanged on the most -- he found too bonafide replacements for them who look good in undrafted FA.  That's impressive at best or at worst it washes away both mistakes.  But that doesn't count either.   

 

You know it doesn't matter if the GM finds players and only some of them count.      If you search the web, you'll see Seattle fans dig big time that their GM, John Schneider is a wiz at finding undrafted FAs.  Ironically thinking about who has been our best undrafted FA over the years, it just might be Antonio Pierce.  Ironically who was the defacto personnel guy, then?  John Schneider.  

 

If Scot's not people's cup of tea.  Cool. Bruce wants to move on for whatever reason.  That's fine.  I said that when this all went down.  But hire another type of guy like that to run things like most franchises do.  Here's the story about John Schneider being let go and replaced by Vinny for those interested. 

 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, TimmySmith said:

9 of 10 of 2017 draft made the team this year.  Allen's looking more and more competent. 

 

And everyone spare me that talk about Scot's draft service.  Maybe Scot should have subscribed to it.

I saw a interview with that Pollan guy the old Colt GM, think he is in the hall, and he was asked how do you rate a good GM? He said a good draft 60% of the players you pick have to make the team. A great GM hits 66% or 2/3. You must hit with your 1st rd picks, case closed. Did SM hit 60% ?

[Skinsinparadise]

I see it pop up every now and then on this thread and others:  the ones saying that people pushing for a different FO structure have the attitude that Scot is great and Bruce is the villain -- I've ignored it but I can't resist taking a little dig back at it.   So here goes: the idea that Scot is some draft God and Bruce is the poor misunderstood do gooder who gets unfairly maligned by haters.   I'll give it that its a funny way to reverse the narrative.   But its not even in the ball park of the subject at hand or for that matter true. 

 

On Bruce, I actually like his fiscal prowess.  I backed him on FA and the draft.  I even backed him on the Kirk contract until it went haywire.  But I'm not a Bruce fanboy.  Not a Scot fanboy.  Or any fanboy of anyone.  I just want the team to win. And I want it run like successful teams run theirs.  My feelings about it have zero to do with any feeling about Bruce or Scot.  

 

If anything it seems like more of the status quo crowd (not all of them) seem to be on the fan boy bandwagon and want to drag this into some odd Bruce-Scot contest.  It even goes down with some where there is a rejoicing vibe when a Scot pick doesn't in their mind pan out. Like that's a point for their guy, Bruce. To each their own.  But its weird to me.   Like I said, I can malign Bruce's drafts easy.  But who cares?  I am rooting for every player to succeed. I was a Redskins fan before Scot and before Bruce.  I'll be a fan when they are gone, too. 

 

The Polian discussion compelled me to look him up and I stumbled on this article. That article hit some points I've been hitting.  So naturally I liked it.    And just to bring home what I'm getting at.  This has zero to do with Scot.  This has to deal with being patient about building a team via the draft without unrealistic expectations -- where if we don't get immediate gratification we switch gears and start all over again with some new plan just like the losing franchises in the NFL typically do.    All of these points pertain equally to Bruce or whomever is running things.  They all deserve more slack IMO then some are giving them in some of these discussions. 

 

Judging a draft in 3 years?  Not one season?  Is Polian nuts? 

http://www.espn.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/22699/good-draft-hit-rates-lower-than-you-think

It’s art with a batting average, a hit percentage that’s actually far lower for even the most successful decision-makers than most fans expect. Typically, it can’t be accurately computed for three years -- a long time to wait to see if the line drive in the gap bounces to extend a rally or is caught to end an inning.

 

Luck and injuries happen? And the GM doesn't think either is their fault?  

“Even in the first two rounds, you’re going to miss 44 percent of the time,” Reinfeldt said. “… It’s a tough business. There is a lot of exposure to it. I think you need to be realistic and compare historically to what other clubs have done.”

Said Polian: “There is a lot of luck involved. I drafted players I swore would be really good players that have gotten hurt and never achieved a thing in the league through no fault of their own. In the end, they wash out and sometimes you don’t make the numbers because of that.”

 

2-3 starters per draft. 

"If you look historically, teams get 2.3 starters per draft and as a team, I think you need to strive to get three starters per draft, or I should say players worthy of starting. Is Jared Cook a starter? Not really but he’s good enough to be a starter in certain situations. Are Alterraun Vernerand Jason McCourty? Well, in the right situation, probably."

 

And Polian adds undrafted free agents in to the soup of their success.  Those players actually count? 

Adding a successful undrafted rookie free agent to the total serves to artificially inflate the numbers. Polian can hit on one or two of a group of 12 or 15 and boost his average. But the Colts have the luxury of running systems where they are more likely to find undrafted players who can cut it. It's part of their building strategy and they can count it how they like.

 

Role players gotten in the later rounds are actually successful picks? How could that be? 

Judging productive players or players who have NFL-caliber traits over the last five or six years, he sees a .560 hit percentage for the first and second rounds; .350 for the third, fourth and fifth rounds; and .333 for the sixth and seventh rounds.

“The hit becomes a little bit easier to define there,” he said. “A guy could be a good role player there and be a hit [based on where he was taken].”

 

[Burgold]

I don't really mind what Bruce has done overall as a GM. In fact his two drafts so far were pretty good. I do think he very badly misplayed the Kirk Cousins hand and I think he plays too much internal politics leading to bad blood and infighting. I do like that the days of salary cap hell have been over for a while.

 

I'm not sure what I feel about the Bruce, Doug, and Scott Campbell trio. Heck, I'm not sure what I think of Jay three years in either. As to the former, I think it may take three years to find out. As to the latter, I'd like to see an efficient, well disciplined bunch. I do expect a rough start to the year, but hope for better by the end. The preseason has dampened my playoff hopes.

 

I so badly want to be surprised. Over the last decade way too many of the surprises when it came to the 'skins were bad ones.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I'm going to write a more in-depth post about this later, but I put almost all of the responsibilitiy of this debacle squarely at Allen's feet.

 

1. He hired Norv Turner 2.0. Good coordinator (Norv was better and has rings to prove it) good guy, terrible HC. 

2. He blew the Cousibs contract thing to the point where we're spending too 5 money on a 15-20 starting QB. 

3. He allows Gruden to keep try-hard good practice guys over more talented guys. Grant? Kelley? As starters? Please. 

4. He fosters an environment of unaccountability.  

5. He allowed Gruden to be stupid with DC picks at least twice Haz and Barry.  We'll see with Manusky. 

6. The FO is essentially his buddies.  They managed to put together a roster that has less talent than last year. Biggest difference is that the defense isn't coached by baffoons.  But they still

lack a pas rush.

 

this is all Allens fault.  He built this dumpster fire.  I hope it engulfs him. 

 

The only eay thos this team doesn't trend into 2-14 territory next year is if Snyder dumps Allen, Gruden and finds a new football guy to run things.  They can use our top 3 pick to get anew QB.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Cousins is good enough to keep us out of range of the top QBs in the draft most likely. So we will be stuck in this purgatory for one more season. and cousins will walk and then we can finally go full suck mode. 

 

At that point we just have to pray the people that couldn't make a decision on cousins after 6 years in front of their faces somehow know how to scout a college QB they've never seen before 

[dyst]

Regarding the Scherff vs Williams debate. You always draft the better player. Always IMO.

 

If you have Klay Thompson, you don't skip taking Michael Jordan just because you "need" a center. 

 

I dont know who is going to be better in the long run between Scherff and Williams but Williams was ranked higher, you draft him. Our defense also sucked so yea.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Cousins is good enough to keep us out of range of the top QBs in the draft most likely. So we will be stuck in this purgatory for one more season. and cousins will walk and then we can finally go full suck mode. 

I doubt even then. The Line can at least pass block really well, this week notwithstanding. The defense isn't that good, but there are a decent amount of good players. Add in the FAs they can sign and there is gonna be too much there to be a real terrible team. We're likely stuck in the mediocrity trap for a while.

[dyst]

Regarding Gruden, does anyone really think this guy is a smart NFL coach? Just wondering. Like do you think he can scheme against the weakness of the other team? 

 

I don't. I don't think he gets his players ready to play. They are sloppy and don't execute enough to my liking.

 

More importantly I don't think he can get us out of trouble. If the other team figures us out, it's almost over.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, dyst said:

Regarding Gruden, does anyone really think this guy is a smart NFL coach? Just wondering. Like do you think he can scheme against the weakness of the other team? 

 

I don't. I don't think he gets his players ready to play. They are sloppy and don't execute enough to my liking.

 

More importantly I don't think he can get us out of trouble. If the other team figures us out, it's almost over.

Personally, no. I don't see anything impressive from him at all. Posters here talk about it being some kind of catastrophe if he were to leave, and I don't get it.

[dyst]

3 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Personally, no. I don't see anything impressive from him at all. Posters here talk about it being some kind of catastrophe if he were to leave, and I don't get it.

Yea I don't think he's bad. Better than Zorn and Spurrer for sure but eh

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, dyst said:

Yea I don't think he's bad. Better than Zorn and Spurrer for sure but eh

Not bad, but nothing special. I would rather take a chance at finding a great coach.

 

Of course, I don't trust this front office to pick a coach, or players, or my nose.

[dyst]

1 minute ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Not bad, but nothing special. I would rather take a chance at finding a great coach.

 

Of course, I don't trust this front office to pick a coach, or players, or my nose.

If we implode and Snyder fires Gruden, he will hire a former Skins player as coach so the fans don't burn the place down. That guy will also be unqualified.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, dyst said:

If we implode and Snyder fires Gruden, he will hire a former Skins player as coach so the fans don't burn the place down. That guy will also be unqualified.

Honestly, the only real hope is it all falls apart and he thinks "things seemed to start going well when I hired a real GM and when he got fired it fell apart again" and go find a real GM. Hopefully a younger up and comer.

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Cousins is good enough to keep us out of range of the top QBs in the draft most likely. So we will be stuck in this purgatory for one more season. and cousins will walk and then we can finally go full suck mode. 

 

At that point we just have to pray the people that couldn't make a decision on cousins after 6 years in front of their faces somehow know how to scout a college QB they've never seen before 

I don't actually know if that's true with this setup of coaches and players.  If they go out and lose to the Rams next week (which I think is at least a 70% possibility), they probably come home, lose to the Raiders, then go lose to KC, and are sitting at 0-4.  Gruden isn't a good enough coach to pull together enough wins quickly to get them in contention, and the season just goes down the toilet.  We're talking draft by mid-October, and "sucking for XXX" player.  Hell, we might even see McCoy at that point.  

 

 

9 hours ago, dyst said:

Regarding the Scherff vs Williams debate. You always draft the better player. Always IMO.

 

If you have Klay Thompson, you don't skip taking Michael Jordan just because you "need" a center. 

 

I dont know who is going to be better in the long run between Scherff and Williams but Williams was ranked higher, you draft him. Our defense also sucked so yea.

I've been through this 10000 times, and I would have been happy with either.  But considering that you had Griffin blaming the OL, and going into a new year with a new GM, new coach, and a QB you spent a fortune on, you had to surround him with everything you could to see how he would do.  So they picked the best OL available, he turned out to be a guard, but played at a pro bowl level last year.  Shrug.  

 

9 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I doubt even then. The Line can at least pass block really well, this week notwithstanding. The defense isn't that good, but there are a decent amount of good players. Add in the FAs they can sign and there is gonna be too much there to be a real terrible team. We're likely stuck in the mediocrity trap for a while.

Maybe.  I still think this thing has a real chance of getting out of control quickly.  I also think that Gruden is a complete bafoon as a HC, and won't be able to adjust to anything without McVay offensively, unless he just takes over the entire offense like an OC, as he was in Cincy.  But he can't really do that and be HC as well.  

 

9 hours ago, dyst said:

Regarding Gruden, does anyone really think this guy is a smart NFL coach? Just wondering. Like do you think he can scheme against the weakness of the other team? 

 

I don't. I don't think he gets his players ready to play. They are sloppy and don't execute enough to my liking.

 

More importantly I don't think he can get us out of trouble. If the other team figures us out, it's almost over.

He's Norv 2.0.  Except Norv was a better coordinator.  Good guy, Good OC, terrible HC.  

 

9 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Personally, no. I don't see anything impressive from him at all. Posters here talk about it being some kind of catastrophe if he were to leave, and I don't get it.

I would have fired him last year and promoted McVay, and I posted as much several times.  But that's not the way of the world. I would have fired him solely for hiring Barry as a DC, which was a move that looked stupid when he did it, and proved to be even stupider in hindsight.  

 

9 hours ago, dyst said:

Yea I don't think he's bad. Better than Zorn and Spurrer for sure but eh

Saying he's better than Spurrier is saying that at least he's a living, breathing human being.  That's a low bar.

 

Is he a better HC than Zorn?  I think they might be about the same.  But Zorn had less to work with. For all his faults, Cousins > JC.  Maybe he's slightly better than Zorn just because of the 2 swinging gates, and he is a better offensive mind, but as a HC ... they both suck.  

 

9 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Not bad, but nothing special. I would rather take a chance at finding a great coach.

 

Of course, I don't trust this front office to pick a coach, or players, or my nose.

The only way this gets better is if Allen is shown the door with Gruden.  Which could only happen if they finish 2-14 or worse.  At that point, Dan HAS to wake up and smell the coffee that he got the executive wrong.  Again.  

 

9 hours ago, dyst said:

If we implode and Snyder fires Gruden, he will hire a former Skins player as coach so the fans don't burn the place down. That guy will also be unqualified.

Who's even out there?  The only one might be Todd Bowles.  And he's a good coach stuck in hell with the NYJ.  

 

9 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Honestly, the only real hope is it all falls apart and he thinks "things seemed to start going well when I hired a real GM and when he got fired it fell apart again" and go find a real GM. Hopefully a younger up and comer.

Ironically, I think Snyder REALLY thought he got the right executive with Allen.  He did exactly what we all wanted him to do, he hired a GM, and then a good coach.

 

The problem is that he nuked it by giving a 23 year old obnoxious brat the keys to the car and supporting Griffin over Shanahan.  

 

Of all the mistakes that Snyder has made, the 2 worst (by FAR) were firing Marty to hire Spurrier, and choosing sides between Griffin and Shanahan. 

 

[Riggo'sRangers]

34 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Of all the mistakes that Snyder has made, the 2 worst (by FAR) were firing Marty to hire Spurrier, and choosing sides between Griffin and Shanahan. 

Those two mistakes effectively neutered our franchise for years.  The Robert episode we are still paying for, player, and maybe coaching wise.  Just piss poor management anyway you slice it.  Can you imagine going from Marty to a Spurrier type of environment?  Good grief we've been horrendous, and that is being nice. Here is an older article on the magnificent moves we did until then.  They will have to update with chapter two in short order.  I actually bristled at being labeled the "Most Depressed NFL Team".  I am starting to come to terms with that and I see why now. It's everything from Sean's murder to, well, pretty much everything. We have been a hot mess for so long.  Maybe it will only change when Dan sells the team....I dunno, but the roller coaster is getting rougher and there are no happy endings in sight.  Sigh.  Hail  

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/592202-washington-redskins-10-personnel-disasters-of-dan-snyders-career

 

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/most-depressing-nfl-teams-saddest-fanbase-worst-redskins-cowboys-patriots-giants-jets-092116