Bruce Allen, Scot McCloughlan, Jay Gruden, and all that stuff like that there

[Rufus T Firefly]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Of all the mistakes that Snyder has made, the 2 worst (by FAR) were firing Marty to hire Spurrier, and choosing sides between Griffin and Shanahan. 

Nah. Shanahan needed to go.

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Nah. Shanahan needed to go.

No he didn't.  Snyder empowered Griffin to dictate to the HC what type of offense he would run, what he wouldn't, and when he would play.  

 

What Mike SHOULD have done is held a press conference outlining that and just quit.  He didn't need the money. But he didn't, and then the season played out the way it played out.

 

Shanahan, and Kyle too for that matter, were better coaches than Gruden.  By a mile.  

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No he didn't.  Snyder empowered Griffin to dictate to the HC what type of offense he would run, what he wouldn't, and when he would play.  

 

What Mike SHOULD have done is held a press conference outlining that and just quit.  He didn't need the money. But he didn't, and then the season played out the way it played out.

 

Shanahan, and Kyle too for that matter, were better coaches than Gruden.  By a mile.  

Shanahan in his younger days was a very good coach. He did a lousy job here. And he was also a bad GM. The team wasn't going to succeed with him here.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Shanahan in his younger days was a very good coach. He did a lousy job here. And he was also a bad GM. The team wasn't going to succeed with him here.

All of the core guys still on the team are from Shanahan.  Or, at least the majority of them.  Williams, Cousins, Kerrigan, Thompson ...  

 

He wasn't great.  But he's better than the doofus we have now.  Kyle might have been better than Mike, not sure. 

 

His biggest gaff was hiring doofus Haslett to run the defense.  

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

All of the core guys still on the team are from Shanahan.  Or, at least the majority of them.  Williams, Cousins, Kerrigan, Thompson ...  

 

He wasn't great.  But he's better than the doofus we have now.  Kyle might have been better than Mike, not sure. 

 

His biggest gaff was hiring doofus Haslett to run the defense.  

He did make some good draft choices. But he traded away too many picks. And missed badly on most of his FA signings. He may be better than Allen, but that doesn't mean he was worth keeping. I'd rather keep firing bad GMs and hope Dan lucks into a good one, rather than settle for "not nearly good enough, but not quite as terrible as the other guy".

 

I'm not 100% sold on Kyle as HC, but it's irrelevant here anyway. Mike wasn't going to step aside for him. He would have left for his shot somewhere else before that ever happened.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I was thinking about this yesterday as I was driving up and back from Baltimore.  Where has Gruden coached (in the NFL) and who has he learned under.  

 

So I looked it up.  He coached under Jon Gruden in Tampa from 2002-2008 as an offensive assistant. Those teams went 57-55, with the first year being a SB year, the others were pretty nondescript.  His next NFL gig was not until 2011, where he coached under Marvin Lewis.  Those teams went 9-7, 10-6, and 11-5, and lost their first playoff game each time.

 

So, I was thinking, of all the time that Gruden has been in the NFL, he's essentially coached for mediocre teams that had average success.  Sure, he's got the 2002 SB, but he was an offensive assistant.  That was Tony Dungy's team (which Bruce Allen dismantled, as an aside) which Jon gave a shot in the arm to through essentially force of personality, accountability, and offensive acumen.  

 

Apart from 2002, Jay hasn't been part of a team that has won a playoff game.  0-2 with the bucks, 0-3 with the Bengals and 0-1 with the 'Skins.

 

So, where this lead me to was, he just was never part of good organizations that knew how to run things.  Which is obvious now, because he has no idea how to run things.  

 

The mid-2000's Bucs were a disaster, and Allen ran them into the ground personnel wise.  So Jay was in Allen's organization, and learned Allen's way of doing things.

 

Then he went to the Bengals and learned from perennial loser Marvin Lewis.  

 

And I think that lack of experience in a successful organization shows.  He's totally in over his head, and completely lost.  

 

 

On 9/12/2017 at 2:38 PM, Rufus T Firefly said:

He did make some good draft choices. But he traded away too many picks. And missed badly on most of his FA signings. He may be better than Allen, but that doesn't mean he was worth keeping. I'd rather keep firing bad GMs and hope Dan lucks into a good one, rather than settle for "not nearly good enough, but not quite as terrible as the other guy".

 

I'm not 100% sold on Kyle as HC, but it's irrelevant here anyway. Mike wasn't going to step aside for him. He would have left for his shot somewhere else before that ever happened.

If it is to be believed, the Griffin trade was on Snyder/Allen.  IF it is to be believed.  He did trade away some picks, but he hit on more picks than anybody else in recent memory. Some FAs worked out, some didn't.  Garcon certainly worked out.  A few others.  

 

Do you know what else he did?  He constructed a team in his image.  And at times it worked.  He signed complementary receivers, TEs, OL that fit his system.  And even with a doofus like Grossman at QB, they still moved the ball. Allen, by comparison, managed to put together a mis-matched team.  At least in 2014, we had an OL built for the outside zone-stretch running game, a WR who couldn't block outside, (DJax), and a set of TEs who couldn't set the edge.  What happened?  They couldn't run inside because the OL wasn't built that way, and they couldn't run outside because the WRs and TEs couldn't set the edge.  So they ran for .2 yards per carry.  Shanahan knew how to construct an offensive roster that fit his system.  

 

Shanahan's biggest weakness, even in Denver, was that he was clueless about how to build a good defense. Coaches, players, all of it.  He was completely useless when it came to defense.  I'm not going to argue that point.  So maybe he needed to go for that. 

 

 

[Llevron]

Well thats ****ing depressing. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Llevron said:

Well thats ****ing depressing. 

Assuming you're referring to my post about Gruden's experience.

 

i agree.

 

But Allen hires his friends.  I am wondering if the Grudens scratch him off their Christmas card list after he gets both brothers fired....

[Rufus T Firefly]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If it is to be believed, the Griffin trade was on Snyder/Allen.  IF it is to be believed.  

It is absolutely not to be believed. There is no reason to believe it, other than his own self-serving words. 

 

He had control of personnel. He told us so himself,in addition to multiple reports of it. So, we are to believe that a guy with control of the roster- rather than walk away with his full pay and blame the whole disaster on Snyder, which everyone would have easily accepted- he instead chose to bank his job, his career and his reputation, not to mention that of his son, on a QB he didn't believe in? Really?

 

Of course, he had no problem basking in the glow of the trade while it brought success. He talked of the mindset behind the trade. And how breathlessly he awaited the Rams answer, just hoping the trade would be complete. It was only after it had turned sour and public opinion had turned against RG3 than Shanahan revealed how against the whole trade he always was. And Shanahan tells us his solution to the QB problem would have been Russell Wilson if it hadn't been for that meddling owner. Which is just amazing that a guy who didn't find any success as a personnel man in two stops was not only the only man in football who knew to stay away from Robert Griffin, but also knew to take that year's definitive draft steal. But we must take his word for it, because he was stopped from executing what would have been his one masterstroke as a GM. Though taking Griffin stopped him from drafting Wilson in the 3rd round, but not Cousins in the 4th, which is..... curious.

 

Still, I'm sure he's telling the truth. After lying about having personnel control and how much he liked the trade, that is.

 

The team was 14-34 under MS outside of the one year we were carried by Griffin, btw. And he left behind a roster than would go 4-12 the next year. So, "against the RG3 trade" doesn't really equal "did a good job".

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Do you know what else he did?  He constructed a team in his image.  And at times it worked.  He signed complementary receivers, TEs, OL that fit his system.  And even with a doofus like Grossman at QB, they still moved the ball. Allen, by comparison, managed to put together a mis-matched team.  At least in 2014, we had an OL built for the outside zone-stretch running game, a WR who couldn't block outside, (DJax), and a set of TEs who couldn't set the edge.  What happened?  They couldn't run inside because the OL wasn't built that way, and they couldn't run outside because the WRs and TEs couldn't set the edge.  So they ran for .2 yards per carry.  Shanahan knew how to construct an offensive roster that fit his system.  

I think you're pretty radically overstating this, to say the least. First, you've ruled out defense, and I assume we're ruling out Special Teams, which were consistently a total disaster under Shanahan. 

 

So, we're left with the offense. And, obviously, in multiple attempts and with huge resources spent, he never found a QB who quite "fit". Unless we're giving him a lot of credit for taking Cousins, who he took after not being allowed to take Tannehill or Wilson (or are we acknowledging what BS that was?) and who then found success 4 years into his career, under a different coach and system? That's kind of a stretch.

 

RBs are certainly his unquestioned forte, although he spent on Willie Parker, Tim Hightower and Larry Johnson, none of whom fit very well. Josh Morgan was a pretty expensive WR who certainly didn't work out.

 

But the reason I highlighted this part of your post is actually the OLine situation. He spent relatively heavy resources on three guys who didn't really seem to fit the zone blocking scheme Shanahan favored- Jammal Brown, Artis Hicks and Josh LeRibeus.. I think the only reason we don't remember those guys as being bad fits for the scheme is because each was such a ridiculously bad acquisition that they couldn't get on the field, which in effect saved Shanahan by allowing him to play guys who did fit the system.

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He did trade away some picks, but he hit on more picks than anybody else in recent memory. Some FAs worked out, some didn't.  Garcon certainly worked out.  A few others.  

It's really not about weighing which moves were good vs which were bad. Though some of them- i.e. the rock-headed McNabb and Brown trades or opening the door to the NFL screwing us out of $36 mil so he could saddle himself with Albert Haynesworth for another season- seem bad enough to override the good.

 

But it's more about the general lack of vision and how badly it screwed the team. 

 

In 2010 he took over a team that badly, ridiculously badly, needed a rebuild. And he had the capital to do it. Everyone was ready. And what did he do? Right, he went quick-fix. McNabb, Brown, Johnson, Parker, Hicks, Carriker. Hold on to enough vets for one more run. The results? Predictable. 6-10. If only he had been smart enough to do the thing everyone else realized he should do.

 

in 2011, he got it. Rebuild. Grossman and Beck. Let's Suck for Luck. But.... then he goes nuts in FA. Bowen, Coifed, Wilson, Atogwe, Stallworth, Gafney. Trade for Hightower. Trade down for more picks, more depth. Re-signing Brown and Moss. Everyone, from Snyder down to the ball boys, knew we couldn't contend that year. Shanahan knew it. Pundits accused of us of being ready to tank the year fro a QB. But mike, in his wisdom, spends all his energy building the team to be just good enough to not get Luck. Into having to trad cup even for Griffin. Not to contend, mind you. He didn't start Rex Grossman thinking he was going to the playoffs. He just wanted to win a handful of games. The most meaningless, and yet most damaging, wins probably in team history.

 

So, no, Mike didn't do a good, or decent, job. He had golden opportunities to turn us into a real contender. And he pissed them away. Because he's terrible. In spite of being able to make a few good draft choices.

[TK]

On 9/5/2017 at 11:23 AM, TimmySmith said:

Had nothing to do with any mafia, you always back the coach, unless you want to fire him.  Same thing happened with Norv/Charlie.  Skins lost that one.  Skins won this one, Scot had too many warts to take his side. 

Except that's not what happened with Norv/Charlie.

 

When Dan first bought the team, he sat down with each of them separately. Norv had said Charlie was the problem. Charlie said it was Norv. Dan was then left trying to figure out which one to can & not knowing enough to know which one to fire. Though he knew one of them had to go. It's like it basically came down to flipping a coin.

[Skinsinparadise]

My personal take on Shanny is he played out to his reputation in Denver in his later years there.  He was an offensive guru who was good at finding offensive talent. He can create a prolific running game.  He wasn't good on the defensive side -- hired mediocre to bad coordinators and didn't judge defensive talent well.  

 

As for what went down transaction wise while he was here.  If I combined what Shanny said directly and some beat reporters backed.

 

McNabb:  Dan's idea.  Dan was fired up about it.  Shanny was ok with it but not overly enthusiastic about it.  Kyle wasn't into the McNabb trade. 

 

Randy Moss:  Paulsen recounted a story that Shanny told him that Dan walked into his office and said lets get Randy Moss and Shanny talked him out of it.

 

RG3:  The murkiest of the transactions depending on the source.  But it seemed to be perhaps a variation of:  Dan had a man crush.  Shanny liked RG3, too. They were both on board to trade for him.   According to Shanny, he was opposed to giving up all they did for RG3.  In other words, if they could get RG3 cheaper he'd have been all in.  Who knows?

 

The Shanny-Dan stuff often gets into an either or binary discussion.  One was good, the other wasn't or vice versa.  I think its perfectly feasible that both Shanny and Dan screwed things up.   I also think its feasible that Dan doesn't involve himself as much as the past likewise I think its feasible that he still though does involve himself.  You rarely hear about his involvement until after the regime is gone.  That makes perfectly sense to me since its suicidal job wise to call your boss out while you are still employed by them.

 

This was one of the articles written post Shanny's firing. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/daniel-snyder-washington-redskins-owner-still-struggles-to-find-formula-for-success/2014/01/04/5d86bfa4-74a4-11e3-bc6b-712d770c3715_story.html?utm_term=.62dab28f07b1

While Shanahan thanked the owner in his farewell news conference last week, those close to the situation said the coaching staff felt there were times Snyder’s interest in bringing in high-profile players, and the marketing value they bring, impacted the product Shanahan was able to put on the field. The biggest example was the acquisition of quarterback Donovan McNabb in 2010.

Shanahan hoped to acquire Marc Bulger, then the St. Louis Rams quarterback, according to two people familiar with the situation, but Snyder pushed hard for the higher profile and more marketable McNabb. The owner cut short a family vacation in the Turks and Caicos Islands to meet his new quarterback.

One constant theme of Snyder’s ownership from the beginning has been complaints from staff about the owner’s involvement with players and the relationships he cultivates with them. Even as he ceded a significant amount of authority to Shanahan these past four years, Snyder, like many NFL owners, will never be entirely absent from big decisions, others warn.

 

“New coaches come in excited because they think they have the support of an owner who wants to win. But they soon find out Snyder is all about making a big splash,” one former assistant coach said.

Two of his more celebrated coaching hires were Shanahan and Schottenheimer. Both were given control of team personnel, something Snyder is said to have regretted in the case of Schottenheimer, who was fired after just one season.

“At the end of the year, Dan told me he wasn’t having any fun. He wanted control back,” one former employee said. “That, I think, was at the heart of the thing. It’s like working for a plumbing company and always looking over your shoulder and hearing, ‘Don’t do that with the elbow joint.’ Unless you’re a plumber, don’t tell the plumber how to do his job.”

[TimmySmith]

13 hours ago, TK said:

Except that's not what happened with Norv/Charlie.

 

When Dan first bought the team, he sat down with each of them separately. Norv had said Charlie was the problem. Charlie said it was Norv. Dan was then left trying to figure out which one to can & not knowing enough to know which one to fire. Though he knew one of them had to go. It's like it basically came down to flipping a coin.

Sorry, I disagree.  All other things being equal, and you have to fire 1 because they can't stand each other, you fire the GM.  If you fire the HC, then basically you are at square 1, which is a scary place to be as an owner. Casserly understood this and resigned with no hard feelings.

[Jacoby66forHOF]

45 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

Sorry, I disagree.  All other things being equal, and you have to fire 1 because they can't stand each other, you fire the GM.  If you fire the HC, then basically you are at square 1, which is a scary place to be as an owner. Casserly understood this and resigned with no hard feelings.

 

Just jumping into this discussion, but wasn't Snyder less than pleased that while his ownership of the Skins was being finalized that Casserly traded a 1st, 3rd and future 2nd for Brad Johnson?  I seem to remember that but I cannot find newspaper articles to back that up.  Anyway, that could of been a mark against Casserly.  

 

Also, I did find an article from Jan 2001 where Casserly says Snyder told him "I fired the wrong guy".  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2001/01/27/snyder-to-casserly-i-fired-the-wrong-guy/b07268a6-a2d7-40a2-ac92-404cae4d8927/?utm_term=.917fc59c7d42

 

And in that article Casserly says hiring Schottenheimer was a good move.  Those were the good old days.  

[TimmySmith]

57 minutes ago, Jacoby66forHOF said:

And in that article Casserly says hiring Schottenheimer was a good move.  Those were the good old days.  

Schotty quitting was the single worst event in Snyder's tenure IMO (which is saying something). He is a class guy and a great coach.  If it had worked out, the Skins would be a different team. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

15 hours ago, TK said:

Except that's not what happened with Norv/Charlie.

 

When Dan first bought the team, he sat down with each of them separately. Norv had said Charlie was the problem. Charlie said it was Norv. Dan was then left trying to figure out which one to can & not knowing enough to know which one to fire. Though he knew one of them had to go. It's like it basically came down to flipping a coin.

 

Timing in the year mattered too...from an on-the-field perspective, it's easier to keep the coach when the off-season program was already underway. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

20 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So, I was thinking, of all the time that Gruden has been in the NFL, he's essentially coached for mediocre teams that had average success.  

 

So, this is tricky...

 

Joe Gibbs was an assistant in the NFL from 1973-1980 (St. Louis, Tampa, and San Diego) before coming here. He coached a couple pretty good teams but also was a part of bad and mediocre teams. Overall, his teams won about 58% of their games and won only one playoff game. That's a pretty similar track record (especially when you remove playoff wins from Gruden's resume). 

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

So, this is tricky...

 

Joe Gibbs was an assistant in the NFL from 1973-1980 (St. Louis, Tampa, and San Diego) before coming here. He coached a couple pretty good teams but also was a part of bad and mediocre teams. Overall, his teams won about 58% of their games and won only one playoff game. That's a pretty similar track record (especially when you remove playoff wins from Gruden's resume). 

Let me be clear, I'm not suggesting that you MUST have success to be hired as a HC, if your units perform well, you know how to organize, etc, that's fine.

 

I'm using it in combination with his record over his first 3 years and 1 game as a HC.  So far he's gone 4-12,9-7, 8-7-1 and 0-1.  That's 21-27-1.  And in those years, he's made 1 stupid decision after the next, on structure of offensive coaching staff (putting too much on himself), some player stuff, and (biggest issue) defensive coaching staff.  

 

So when you take the record as HC over 3 years, add it to the fact he was never on a succesful team and seems to have gotten piss-poor mentoring on how to run an organization, you can make a conclusion.  

 

 Also, Gibbs coached under Don Coryell.  Who was widely respected as a coach.  

16 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

t is absolutely not to be believed. There is no reason to believe it, other than his own self-serving words. 

That's an extremely well written, thought out post.  I always like those posts, even when I disagree with them.  (I'm just quoting the first line so you see the reply).

 

It's really kidnof irrelevant whether Mike could have or could not have had success here.  I think he did a better job constructing a roster than you did.  I think given more time and lack of influence from ownership and Griffin, he would have been better than Gruden.  But maybe not.  

 

I would be happier if he had been fired and we got a better coach than Jay.  maybe that's what sticking in my craw.  It's like from pot into kettle.  

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Let me be clear, I'm not suggesting that you MUST have success to be hired as a HC, if your units perform well, you know how to organize, etc, that's fine.

 

I'm using it in combination with his record over his first 3 years and 1 game as a HC.  So far he's gone 4-12,9-7, 8-7-1 and 0-1.  That's 21-27-1.  And in those years, he's made 1 stupid decision after the next, on structure of offensive coaching staff (putting too much on himself), some player stuff, and (biggest issue) defensive coaching staff.  

 

So when you take the record as HC over 3 years, add it to the fact he was never on a succesful team and seems to have gotten piss-poor mentoring on how to run an organization, you can make a conclusion.  

 

 Also, Gibbs coached under Don Coryell.  Who was widely respected as a coach.  

I see your point. I also think there's a leadership that Gruden brings to the team. I am personally a fan of his and think we have to realize what he inherited here. Gibbs inherited a team with a strong front office that was probably just a good coach away from being good. Under Pardee in three seasons they were a .500 team. Gruden inherited a team that has what is widely considered a bottom-tier front office and a group that had double-digit losses in 4 of the preceding 5 years. 

 

Also, was Dungy any less respected than Coryell? Is Lewis? 

[Voice_of_Reason]

16 hours ago, TK said:

Except that's not what happened with Norv/Charlie.

 

When Dan first bought the team, he sat down with each of them separately. Norv had said Charlie was the problem. Charlie said it was Norv. Dan was then left trying to figure out which one to can & not knowing enough to know which one to fire. Though he knew one of them had to go. It's like it basically came down to flipping a coin.

Yeah, that's my recollection.  The fact is, and Dan didn't know this at the time, both guys were essentially bums.  Casserly did a pretty putrid job in Houston when he got there too, and he was very much responsible for the talent deterioration during the 90's.

 

That said, Norv took a 14-2 Chargers team and turned them into a 10-6 team (virtually the same exact team) overnight.  And it really just got worse from there.  He was a BAD HC.  Great OC, though.  

 

2 hours ago, TimmySmith said:

Sorry, I disagree.  All other things being equal, and you have to fire 1 because they can't stand each other, you fire the GM.  If you fire the HC, then basically you are at square 1, which is a scary place to be as an owner. Casserly understood this and resigned with no hard feelings.

If Dan could have fired Norv, I think he would have.  But at the time he became the owner (mid-spring, I believe), I don't think that firing Norv was really even a possibility.  It's not only starting over, but who are you going to hire half-way through the off season?  

 

And, the 'Skins had shown some promise in 1998.

 

Hindsight being 20/20, possibly the right thing to do would have been to tell both Charlie and Norv that they just had to suck it up and live with it for another season, and then they would address everything after the season.  I'm not sure what would have happened if they did that, because the 'Skins did go 10-6 that year, so maybe both stay? Dunno.   

 

2 hours ago, Jacoby66forHOF said:

 

Just jumping into this discussion, but wasn't Snyder less than pleased that while his ownership of the Skins was being finalized that Casserly traded a 1st, 3rd and future 2nd for Brad Johnson?  I seem to remember that but I cannot find newspaper articles to back that up.  Anyway, that could of been a mark against Casserly.  

 

Also, I did find an article from Jan 2001 where Casserly says Snyder told him "I fired the wrong guy".  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2001/01/27/snyder-to-casserly-i-fired-the-wrong-guy/b07268a6-a2d7-40a2-ac92-404cae4d8927/?utm_term=.917fc59c7d42

 

And in that article Casserly says hiring Schottenheimer was a good move.  Those were the good old days.  

If Dan didn't like trading picks for Brad Johnson, then that certainly is ironic given how freely they traded picks for the next 20 years.

 

I really think it was more timing than anything.  

 

1 hour ago, TimmySmith said:

Schotty quitting was the single worst event in Snyder's tenure IMO (which is saying something). He is a class guy and a great coach.  If it had worked out, the Skins would be a different team. 

Schotty didn't quit.  He was fired.  After going 8-8, after going 0-5.  Firing Marty and hiring Spurrier is still the absolute worst decision he's made as owner.  Firing Marty would have been bad enough.  Replacing him with that 2-bit fool was just insult to injury.  And it was SO obvious from the beginning.  

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I see your point. I also think there's a leadership that Gruden brings to the team. I am personally a fan of his and think we have to realize what he inherited here. Gibbs inherited a team with a strong front office that was probably just a good coach away from being good. Under Pardee in three seasons they were a .500 team. Gruden inherited a team that has what is widely considered a bottom-tier front office and a group that had double-digit losses in 4 of the preceding 5 years. 

 

Also, was Dungy any less respected than Coryell? Is Lewis? 

Jay didn't coach under Dungy.  He was an offensive assistant for Brother Jon.  Who is respected, but after winning the SB, he and Allen basically ran that team into the ground.  Gruden did extraordinarily well with the Raiders and then the Bucs for a period, but then things went south on him.  I kinda blame Allen for that.  But, let's just say that the mid-2000 Bucs were not seen as a great, well run organization.  

 

Lewis is a perennial loser and buffoon.  He's had some madly talented teams, and they've just choked every year.  It's one of the great mysteries of the NFL how he's the second longest tenured coach, given that he has a 113–94–3 (.545) regular season record (which is akin to going 8-7-1 every year), and an 0-7 playoff record.  

 

I might be one of the biggest Gruden detractors on the board.  Which I admit.  I am not a fan.  I think the decisions that he's made from an organizational perspective are rotten, almost every single one of them.  

 

We'll see how the year plays out.  I expect them to lose on Sunday, followed by losses to the Raiders and KC, and be sitting at 0-4 going into the bye.  If that happens, and he manages to get the team to 8-8 by the end of the year, I'll concede that he might have an upside.  But I doubt that will happen.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Jay didn't coach under Dungy.  He was an offensive assistant for Brother Jon.  Who is respected, but after winning the SB, he and Allen basically ran that team into the ground.  Gruden did extraordinarily well with the Raiders and then the Bucs for a period, but then things went south on him.  I kinda blame Allen for that.  But, let's just say that the mid-2000 Bucs were not seen as a great, well run organization.  

 

Lewis is a perennial loser and buffoon.  He's had some madly talented teams, and they've just choked every year.  It's one of the great mysteries of the NFL how he's the second longest tenured coach, given that he has a 113–94–3 (.545) regular season record (which is akin to going 8-7-1 every year), and an 0-7 playoff record.  

 

I might be one of the biggest Gruden detractors on the board.  Which I admit.  I am not a fan.  I think the decisions that he's made from an organizational perspective are rotten, almost every single one of them.  

 

We'll see how the year plays out.  I expect them to lose on Sunday, followed by losses to the Raiders and KC, and be sitting at 0-4 going into the bye.  If that happens, and he manages to get the team to 8-8 by the end of the year, I'll concede that he might have an upside.  But I doubt that will happen.  

I guess we won't see eye to eye on this. 

 

If Lewis is an underachieving buffoon, why is Coryell royalty? He essentially averaged a 9-7 season and lost twice as many playoff games as he won over his 10 years as a head coach in the NFL. 

[D'Pablo]

Any chance we go after Marvin Lewis after this year?  I'd be excited about it.  They've never given him much to work with outside of the draft - and he seems to be a great talent evaluator.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

22 minutes ago, D'Pablo said:

Any chance we go after Marvin Lewis after this year?  I'd be excited about it.  They've never given him much to work with outside of the draft - and he seems to be a great talent evaluator.

No, and I'm not sure what would be exciting about it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

80s nostalgia seems to be one of the hot cards to play with Dan.  How about Russ Grimm as the new head coach?   Dump Kirk for whomever Doug handpicks as the next guy.   Replace Callahan with Jacoby.   Maybe honor Gibbs in a major ceremony for the opener of 2018.   We need something exciting. Good times back with these moves?  Losing the first game is beyond unacceptable.  Heads should roll.   It's time for a dramatic move.  I think 2 first rounders for Garopollo and replacing Jay with Grimm might reignite some needed excitement.   

[squatch66]

I was one of the folks that said give Gruden a chance, but lately I am finding myself wishing that we had done what the Bucs did when they fired Lovie rather than lose Koetter.

 

Ive been reading here forever that people want a young up and coming coach. I feel like that could be McVay. I feel like McVay hiring Wade already makes me feel like he will be a better coach than Gruden.

 

That and I just can't shake the feeling that we are going to be stuck with the Tampa reject fraternity for the rest of my life