Bruce Allen, Scot McCloughlan, Jay Gruden, and all that stuff like that there

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, carex said:

 

I don't think even Cooke was that hands off

 

I've seen footage of Cooke multiple times.  He said almost like a mantra he lets his people do their thing.  The closest critique I recall related to Cooke was on America's Game where Gibbs goes Cooke told him Jimmy Johnson was doing it right with all of the young players he's acquiring, and Gibbs is going about it the wrong way with old guys, etc -- but Gibbs said something to the effect that Cook but fine we will do it your way.

 

2 hours ago, carex said:

 

the people who've said it all tend to be people he fired.  And people in sports all tend to have egos.  What's more likely?  "Dan was right to fire me/have me cut.  I sucked"  or "I'd have been fine without Snyder screwing with me."  Plus their stories aren't always as damning as some people think.  Shanahan claims he didn't have full personnel control because Snyder could suggest singing Randy Moss?  Shanny got to say no didn't he?

 

 

 

Plenty of people get fired around the league but we don't tend to hear stories (with rare exceptions) about their owners imposing transactions on their coaches or hanging out in Vegas, the bowling alley, movie premiers with the team's star players.   When Shanny was ultimately fired from Denver, I went back and read most of the stories and I don't recall any about the owner pushing him to acquire player X.  But even playing along with this point, if Dan just keeps hiring bad coaches that he ultimately has to fire -- what does that say about arguably the key skill for an owner and that is hire the right people?

[carex]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've seen footage of Cooke multiple times.  He said almost like a mantra he lets his people do their thing.  The closest critique I recall related to Cooke was on America's Game where Gibbs goes Cooke told him Jimmy Johnson was doing it right with all of the young players he's acquiring, and Gibbs is going about it the wrong way with old guys, etc -- but Gibbs said something to the effect that Cook but fine we will do it your way.

 

 

Plenty of people get fired around the league but we don't tend to hear stories (with rare exceptions) about their owners imposing transactions on their coaches or hanging out in Vegas, the bowling alley, movie premiers with the team's star players.   When Shanny was ultimately fired from Denver, I went back and read most of the stories and I don't recall any about the owner pushing him to acquire player X.  But even playing along with this point, if Dan just keeps hiring bad coaches that he ultimately has to fire -- what does that say about arguably the key skill for an owner and that is hire the right people?

 

only Zorn was fired for being bad.  Shanny was fired because things had deteriorated to him having to do a second rebuilding job.  Marty was fired cause he couldn't get along with the owner, Spurrier quit, Gibbs retired

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, carex said:

 

only Zorn was fired for being bad.  Shanny was fired because things had deteriorated to him having to do a second rebuilding job.  Marty was fired cause he couldn't get along with the owner, Spurrier quit, Gibbs retired

 

It seems like you're just saying things to say them.  You're not a dumb person, I don't know where you're getting this stuff from.

 

1)  Zorn was fired, yes

2)  Shanahan didn't have the power he was promised.  That's basically what we've been talking about throughout the thread.  He was undermined by Snyder.

3)  Marty was fired because he didn't get along with the owner?  No, the owner was impatient, wouldn't cede power, and wanted the splashy hire of Spurrier.

4)  Spurrier wasn't allowed to pick his own quarterback because of the owner.

5)  Gibbs retired, yes.

 

The middle three had everything to do with Snyder.  I don't know how or why you're trying to argue otherwise.  I think Snyder's better now, at least I hope so, but that doesn't change what has already happened.

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

So, I've told this story on ES before (I think) but the Snyder/RGIII BOWL-O-RAMA video brought me back right to it.  Lil Dan is a DANCING MACHINE so gather 'round the camp fire.

 

Back in 2005, the Skins were on a 4 game TEAR (en route to 5) and Philly was up next. I was home from college on Winter Break, and my buddy and I decided to make a run up to Potomac Village to meet our "friend".  (cough, pot dealer) That afternoon, I was also wearing my new XMAS gifts: white Santana jersey and burgundy Skins pajama pants.

 

As we sat in the parking lot waiting for our "friend" to show up, I noticed in the side rear view window this Hot-Blonde-Mom-Bombshell loading something into the back of a large black SUV.  I tell my buddy, "Aye, check out that MOMBshell bending over in the jeans behind us."  (MILF was too cliche at this point, I had to get creative.)

 

So, now we are both completely turned around in our seats drooling like dogs and fogging up the windows of his Volvo-- and out from behind the SUV struts this little guy talking on his phone wearing a leather jacket w/ a huge Skins logo stitched on the front.

 

"Oh ****!" I said, "That's Dan Snyder!" He was no more than 15 yards from us.  (Mind you, everyone in the DMV was VERY excited about the Skins during this time.)  So without hesitation- I swing the door open, leap out of the car, throw my hands up, and yell at the top of my lungs "HAIL TO THE SKINS BABAAAAAAAYYYYY!!!"

 

Looking back, it was very aggressive and I think I scared the absolute **** out him and several other people that day. 

 

HOWEVER, The Danimal quickly spins around, sees #89 + my huge smile, and IMMEDIATELY throws his hands up!  He starts to wave them side to side in the air like Naughty By Nature's "Hip Hop Horray" was blasting on some huge imaginary PA system.  

The best part was that he was completely ignoring whoever was on the phone-- instead  choosing to partake in this hallucinatory rap music video that we were now both starring in.  After what seemed like hours (probably 15 seconds max) he smiled and got back on the phone.

 

Almost simultaneously, our "friend" pulls up a few spots away from us and we secure the leafy goodness.  Pulling out of the parking lot, we pass by the black SUV, and it was almost like my new (actual) friend was waiting for me!  SnyderMan literally LEAPS out like a leather-cladded-leprechaun (still on the phone) feriously pumping his fist while letting out some type of swash-buckling war cry:  "YAAAARRRHHAAAHAAAAA!!!"" I, of course, returned with my own rebel yell.  Philly never stood a chance.

 

So long story short:  Snyder hasn't had a great run as the owner-- but he LOVES to dance as much as he loves the Redskins.  He also apparently loves me.

 

[carex]

1 hour ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

It seems like you're just saying things to say them.  You're not a dumb person, I don't know where you're getting this stuff from.

 

1)  Zorn was fired, yes

2)  Shanahan didn't have the power he was promised.  That's basically what we've been talking about throughout the thread.  He was undermined by Snyder.

3)  Marty was fired because he didn't get along with the owner?  No, the owner was impatient, wouldn't cede power, and wanted the splashy hire of Spurrier.

4)  Spurrier wasn't allowed to pick his own quarterback because of the owner.

5)  Gibbs retired, yes.

 

The middle three had everything to do with Snyder.  I don't know how or why you're trying to argue otherwise.  I think Snyder's better now, at least I hope so, but that doesn't change what has already happened.

 

Unless you think that Dan should not have been allowed to TALK to Shanahan I don't see his actions as meaning Shanahan lacked the power he was promised and he had just complete year 4 of a five year deal and the team needed more work

 

With Marty, Snyder had already ceded a great deal of power, he took it back,

 

Spurrier wanted to choose between Shane Mathews and Danny Wuerffel.  That's reason to get reign him in. 

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/20599/steve-spurriers-redskins-days-filled-with-stories-not-wins

 

There's some stories about Spurrier in there that shows why he was lousy.  You can blame Snyder for that, but coaches who want to win can adapt, just like Joe Gibbs did. 

[goskins10]

6 hours ago, carex said:

 

the people who've said it all tend to be people he fired.  And people in sports all tend to have egos.  What's more likely?  "Dan was right to fire me/have me cut.  I sucked"  or "I'd have been fine without Snyder screwing with me."  Plus their stories aren't always as damning as some people think.  Shanahan claims he didn't have full personnel control because Snyder could suggest singing Randy Moss?  Shanny got to say no didn't he?

 

 

 

 

I talked directly to an ex-player - one from the Joe Gibbs years so it's not someone he fired. He had specific examples of Dan Snyder being a jerk and treating those players and others like crap. For example most teams have a suite or box just for ex-players to come just be fans. Instead, Snyder makes them go into suites with buddies and be entertainment. During those "home-coming" games, he makes them do several hours of autograph signing and generally just entertaining his buddies like toys to play with. That's why many of the biggest stars don't come.

 

Then there are the Vinnie years, hiring Jim Zorn, him being entirely too close to Robert creating issues in the locker-room, cutting down a tree illegally because it blocks his view, etc, etc, etc. These are not opinion based things but verifiable facts. I have not even mentioned the poor player choices. Jeff George anyone?

 

You want to say he had nothing to do with those? Ok, none of us were in the room. But you were not either. So you can't say he didn't interfere to a certainty. And considering the history he has that we know of, for me it's much easier to see him being a micromanager and part of the problem than being a great guy who just wants to win.

 

If you are still willing to defend Snyder it's purely on faith. All the facts are there that show he is just not a very nice person overall. Yes he does some nice things - money to charities, the tour of Native American reservations. But that does not overcome the mountain of crap he has done to this franchise.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, carex said:

 

only Zorn was fired for being bad.  Shanny was fired because things had deteriorated to him having to do a second rebuilding job.  Marty was fired cause he couldn't get along with the owner, Spurrier quit, Gibbs retired

 

I thought your argument was is that people who are telling these stories were canned.  Spurrier has been among the ones telling the stories.  Heck even Gibbs shared stories about Dan calling him asking about him lets go get Lance Briggs, calling him after watching the Vikings play MNF and giving him his scouting report. Gibbs told the stories with affection but nonetheless he facilitated the perception that Dan likes to insert himself.   What coach haven't we heard a story about Dan inserting himself?  I guess Jay but once he's gone I'd be surprised if we don't hear some stories. 

 

Here's the interim coach Robiskie after Norv got canned:

 

http://staugustine.com/stories/120700/spo_1207000080.shtml#.WcRglNOGNBw

As the rest of the team adjusted to a pared-down daily routine and simpler offensive scheme under interim coach Terry Robiskie, Johnson said upper management -- not Robiskie -- has made the decision to start George the rest of the season.

''I think that decision's made from up top. ... I think it's obvious,'' Johnson said. ''I think Jeff's going to be the starter the rest of the way out. In case something happens with him, then I'll be ready to go. Otherwise, I'm just going to finish strong up here and deal with my situation in the off-season.''

Robiskie, speaking after his first practice as coach, did not dispute Johnson's statement. He said the decision to go with George was made in talks among the coaches and Snyder -- and he defended Snyder's right to have such input.

''A lot of people want to separate us from Mr. Snyder,'' Robiskie said. ''Mr. Snyder owns the football team. I know that. I promise you there's very few things in the building I'm going to say I want to change without calling him to say I want to change it.

''If I wanted to change my desk, I'm going to call him and say I want to change my desk. If I want to change quarterbacks, I'm going to call him and say, 'What do you think of me changing quarterbacks?' It's his football team. To try to separate it, we're wasting our time.''

Snyder was not available for comment. His spokesman, Karl Swanson, said Robiskie ''makes all football decisions, just as Norv did. He doesn't need to ask anybody's permission.''

Still, Robiskie's remarks may make it even harder for the Redskins to lure a high-profile coach for next season. One thing is for sure: The quarterback who led them to their only playoff appearance since 1993 does not plan on returning.

[carex]

here's my narrative: I don't know anything about Snyder as a person, I'm not looking to find out.

 

He is the owner of the team, he has the right to talk to any member of the team or coaching staff at any time and make any suggestions.

 

If he promises the coach has final say in the roster, him suggesting players is not violating that promise as long as the coach gets to say no

 

Players and coaches can spin perfectly reasonable things to make others look bad, they also can be mistaken.

 

Spurrier complains that Snyder didn't let him choose the QB a lot of people will just reflexively agree that's to much interference, but realistically Shane Matthews and Danny Wuerrfel shouldn't have allowed him to choose one of them as the starting QB

 

RG3 thinks Shanahan didn't want him?  Frankly I agree. But only by the end of Shanny's tenure   I think that RG3 pissed him off when he decided he was taking the Skins to the playoffs despite Shanny claiming they were going into evaluation mode, then saying he'd b back for camp after the ACL tear

 

 

[VeroViper]

Getting back to McCloughlan and the imprint he left on this team. While he may have done some good for us, his tenure here is starting to look quite mediocre. And when I say this I'm looking specifically at last year's draft. It's looking more and more like he completely wiffed on our 1st and 2nd round picks last year(Doctson & Cravens). And as a result that is one of the primary reasons we're not seeing this team take a step forward this year. When you completely miss on your 1st and 2nd round picks in any given draft you're really setting you're team back. 

[dyst]

On 9/21/2017 at 7:58 PM, LaRonDontLikeUgly said:

So, I've told this story on ES before (I think) but the Snyder/RGIII BOWL-O-RAMA video brought me back right to it.  Lil Dan is a DANCING MACHINE so gather 'round the camp fire.

 

Back in 2005, the Skins were on a 4 game TEAR (en route to 5) and Philly was up next. I was home from college on Winter Break, and my buddy and I decided to make a run up to Potomac Village to meet our "friend".  (cough, pot dealer) That afternoon, I was also wearing my new XMAS gifts: white Santana jersey and burgundy Skins pajama pants.

 

As we sat in the parking lot waiting for our "friend" to show up, I noticed in the side rear view window this Hot-Blonde-Mom-Bombshell loading something into the back of a large black SUV.  I tell my buddy, "Aye, check out that MOMBshell bending over in the jeans behind us."  (MILF was too cliche at this point, I had to get creative.)

 

So, now we are both completely turned around in our seats drooling like dogs and fogging up the windows of his Volvo-- and out from behind the SUV struts this little guy talking on his phone wearing a leather jacket w/ a huge Skins logo stitched on the front.

 

"Oh ****!" I said, "That's Dan Snyder!" He was no more than 15 yards from us.  (Mind you, everyone in the DMV was VERY excited about the Skins during this time.)  So without hesitation- I swing the door open, leap out of the car, throw my hands up, and yell at the top of my lungs "HAIL TO THE SKINS BABAAAAAAAYYYYY!!!"

 

Looking back, it was very aggressive and I think I scared the absolute **** out him and several other people that day. 

 

HOWEVER, The Danimal quickly spins around, sees #89 + my huge smile, and IMMEDIATELY throws his hands up!  He starts to wave them side to side in the air like Naughty By Nature's "Hip Hop Horray" was blasting on some huge imaginary PA system.  

The best part was that he was completely ignoring whoever was on the phone-- instead  choosing to partake in this hallucinatory rap music video that we were now both starring in.  After what seemed like hours (probably 15 seconds max) he smiled and got back on the phone.

 

Almost simultaneously, our "friend" pulls up a few spots away from us and we secure the leafy goodness.  Pulling out of the parking lot, we pass by the black SUV, and it was almost like my new (actual) friend was waiting for me!  SnyderMan literally LEAPS out like a leather-cladded-leprechaun (still on the phone) feriously pumping his fist while letting out some type of swash-buckling war cry:  "YAAAARRRHHAAAHAAAAA!!!"" I, of course, returned with my own rebel yell.  Philly never stood a chance.

 

So long story short:  Snyder hasn't had a great run as the owner-- but he LOVES to dance as much as he loves the Redskins.  He also apparently loves me.

 

Dude, what if you already had the pot in hand and smoked, imagined the whole thing.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, VeroViper said:

Getting back to McCloughlan and the imprint he left on this team. While he may have done some good for us, his tenure here is starting to look quite mediocre. And when I say this I'm looking specifically at last year's draft. It's looking more and more like he completely wiffed on our 1st and 2nd round picks last year(Doctson & Cravens). And as a result that is one of the primary reasons we're not seeing this team take a step forward this year. When you completely miss on your 1st and 2nd round picks in any given draft you're really setting you're team back. 

Right now Ioannidis looks like our best D lineman.  Preston Smith has a sack every game.   Fuller is emerging as a good corner.  Cooley thinks Scherff is one of the best O lineman in the league, he's practically fawning about him in his film reviews.  Crowder is arguably the #1 receiver.  Spaight had a good camp.  Scot had some good developments so far this year as for his draft classes.  We can blame Su'a Cravens' family situation or whatever it is on Scot -- fine.  One of the three extra picks that Scot picked up in the 2016 draft was used to picked Perine.  Doctson to me is an incomplete but I'd give it a chance -- Cooley in his film review gave him an A minus.  Big blocks, he was open for TDs, ran good routes.  Kirk just needs to start looking for him.    

 

I think Scot's drafts are looking good if we judge them by real world standards. But lets say for argument sake they were mediocre or even bad.  IMO it doesn't change one whit about the typical winning structures in the NFL do not look like the current Redskins structure.  Most teams have a personnel guy running personnel.   Some team's top personnel guy don't ultimately work out -- but by and large in those cases they replace that guy with another personnel guy versus abandon the structure entirely. 

 

[thebeermonkey]

We will continue to be mid level with trips to the bottom of the pile while Snyder and Allen are involved. They're just typical useless entrepreneurs/politicians who are protected from their continual mistakes.

 

How many NFL teams are under fan control?

[carex]

1 hour ago, thebeermonkey said:

We will continue to be mid level with trips to the bottom of the pile while Snyder and Allen are involved. They're just typical useless entrepreneurs/politicians who are protected from their continual mistakes.

 

How many NFL teams are under fan control?

 

Packers for one.  There's a case for the Cowboys

[SkinsFTW]

3 hours ago, carex said:

 

Packers for one.  There's a case for the Cowboys

 

The Packers have an actual GM. The Redskins have the Allen puppet, for 8 years now.

[TheCoach22]

On 9/21/2017 at 3:59 PM, NewCliche21 said:

 

It seems like you're just saying things to say them.  You're not a dumb person, I don't know where you're getting this stuff from.

 

1)  Zorn was fired, yes

2)  Shanahan didn't have the power he was promised.  That's basically what we've been talking about throughout the thread.  He was undermined by Snyder.

3)  Marty was fired because he didn't get along with the owner?  No, the owner was impatient, wouldn't cede power, and wanted the splashy hire of Spurrier.

4)  Spurrier wasn't allowed to pick his own quarterback because of the owner.

5)  Gibbs retired, yes.

 

The middle three had everything to do with Snyder.  I don't know how or why you're trying to argue otherwise.  I think Snyder's better now, at least I hope so, but that doesn't change what has already happened.

Even Dan has acknowledged he blew it with Marty. Steve Spurrier had Shane Matthews and Danny Wuerrfel on the same NFL roster. He quit from a golf course and never seemed vested in doing anything other than trying out his offense in the NFL. Shanahan sabotaged himself to escape, and it is fair to ask what and why... and Gibbs retired a year early, really catching everyone off guard and leaving the team with a crap roster and ole Bug Eyes launched one of the most bizarre and ass backwards searches ever.

 

Dan made a ton of mistakes early in his stewardship. He has been very patient with pretty much all facets of the team in the second half of his ownership to date. Some will never get over how he started. And, like a lot of the billionaire boys' club, he keeps a lackey nearby at all times... (even Mr. Burns has Smithers... ) but BA is certainly an upgrade to Bug Eyes from both a FB pedigree and a professionalism standpoint.

 

Really sad that GMSM is lnt here anymore. The man has a gift. But, this was the third time he left or was forced out of an NFL franchise. Do we really think it was all one sided?

 

Some of the people under Scot are deserving of a shot (Scott Campbell would have been thrown into the company of good personnel people that got away if we hadn't promoted him). And, Jay appears to have a really competent coaching staff. The last piece can change culture more than anything coming from the Owner's Suite.

[squatch66]

 Key players from last night:

 

Preston Smith

Josh Doctson

Kendall Fuller

Matt Ioannidis

Martrell Spaight

 

But hey, **** McC right?

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

48 minutes ago, squatch66 said:

 Key players from last night:

 

Preston Smith

Josh Doctson

Kendall Fuller

Matt Ioannidis

Martrell Spaight

 

But hey, **** McC right?

 

Add Scherff.

 

the big misses as of now are Matt Jones, Cravens and Doctson.  

 

Doctson might be turning it around but it's going to take more than 1 big catch to get there. But arrow is at least pointing up.  Cravens is a long shot at this point and jones is a bust.  

 

The FA pickups are hit/miss.  

 

I think GMSM did an ok job.  Maybe not great, not terrible.  

[carex]

37 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Add Scherff.

 

the big misses as of now are Matt Jones, Cravens and Doctson.  

 

Doctson might be turning it around but it's going to take more than 1 big catch to get there. But arrow is at least pointing up.  Cravens is a long shot at this point and jones is a bust.  

 

The FA pickups are hit/miss.  

 

I think GMSM did an ok job.  Maybe not great, not terrible.  

 

I always thought he was supposed to be a guy good at finding gems at the bottoms of drafts.  That has not worked out

[757SeanTaylor21]

How do you fault him for cravens?

[squatch66]

44 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Add Scherff.

 

the big misses as of now are Matt Jones, Cravens and Doctson.  

 

Doctson might be turning it around but it's going to take more than 1 big catch to get there. But arrow is at least pointing up.  Cravens is a long shot at this point and jones is a bust.  

 

The FA pickups are hit/miss.  

 

I think GMSM did an ok job.  Maybe not great, not terrible.  

 

Wow Doctson is a miss already? I think it's a little early to say he's a big miss. Yes it might just be one catch but that was a huge confidence boost to not just Doctson himself, but Kirk to know he can toss it up and let Josh go get it.  It also gives the coaches the confidence in Josh to give him more snaps. 

 

As far as free agency, yes I will say that our record was awful. But the difference is that when we signed guys it was to a team friendly contract that wouldn't cripple the cap. Not like Haynesworth, whose presence was felt long after he was gone.

 

7 minutes ago, carex said:

 

I always thought he was supposed to be a guy good at finding gems at the bottoms of drafts.  That has not worked out

 

What about Kyshoen Jarrett? Dude was our Micah Hyde until he ruined his arm for the team.

 

It doesn't even matter anymore since the guy is gone. I'm just tired of people ****ing about his lack of draft success when he has drafted us some ****ing players. It's almost like some people are piling on to justify his firing in their minds.

 

Not saying that any one particular individual, just how it comes off as I read through the thread

[Reaper Skins]

8 hours ago, carex said:

 

I always thought he was supposed to be a guy good at finding gems at the bottoms of drafts.  That has not worked out

Rob Kelley?  Ioannidis?  Spaight?  Crowder?  Roullier? Nicholsen?  He almost hit more on his lower round guys than his high round guys

[skinzplay]

Doctson isn't (and never was) a miss by Scot. It was a freak injury. People often talk about how receivers take 3 years to develop (that's the standard league mantra), yet they want to jump all over Doctson for not being all-world from day one. Kid had a weird injury. He wants to play. He does love the game. He's just not a demonstrative type of guy. There are two ends of the player spectrum when it comes to rah-rah stuff. We've got our guy Josh (best corner we've had in ages, and I love his passion and how it rubs off on others, and not just people on defense). And we've got a guy like Doctson, who is very reserved by nature. You guys should talk to J. Keim. He explains Doctson's disposition very well. He's going to be a VERY good receiver. Cousins needs to look for him more. He was open doggone near every route he ran against the Rams.

[Jacoby66forHOF]

10 hours ago, squatch66 said:

 Key players from last night:

 

Preston Smith

Josh Doctson

Kendall Fuller

Matt Ioannidis

Martrell Spaight

 

But hey, **** McC right?

 

 

Not **** McClou, but the player that is at the top of the list of key players from Sundays win is Chris Thompson and he has nothing do to with McClou.  Other key players with little to no McClou connections:

 

Trent Williams

Ryan Kerrigan

Spencer Long

Kirk Cousins

Bashaud Breeland

DJ Swearinger

Zach Brown

Montae Nicholson

Morgan Moses

 

28 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said:

Rob Kelley?  Ioannidis?  Spaight?  Crowder?  Roullier? Nicholsen?  He almost hit more on his lower round guys than his high round guys

 

Not sure Roullier and Nicholson can be counted as an McClou pick.  It was said the Skins followed his board, but to say those two players would of been picked if McClou was in the draft room is a stretch.  Especially when the Allen pick in round 1 is factored in.  Odds are no one in the Skins draft room thought Allen would of fallen to them at 17, but once he did the ripple affect down the Skins draft board had to of been monumental and it surely impacted who was picked in later rounds.

 

Bottom line is McClou is gone.  He hit on some good players early and late in his drafts, but he also whiffed on others.  He put his mark on the current team, but he can't take sole credit.  

[Skinsinparadise]

This point isn't directed ay anyone specifically but just about the tone/subject matter sometimes as to this debate.   I think the whether Scot has been a hit or not with his picks is 100% irrelevant to what the point at hand is for most of the critics here.  The point is how do you structure a winning FO.  Do you have in essence a business guy with no background in personnel who is ultra tight with an owner who has a reputation for meddling -- be the guy making the final call on personnel?  Or do you like the idea of having an expert on personnel making personnel decisions?  That really boils everything down IMO. 

 

Scot I think is judged by some (not all his critics) with a bit of vitriol and with some (not all his critics)  it's almost a little cool to attack him, its like a hipster position -- hey the "genius" messed up on this and that.  And funnier yet that guy who many fans disrespect in contrast got this and that right -- ha, ha, ha!    As if the key argument people are making here is about crying that Scot was let go.  But Scot being let go is 100% irrelevant to the point of most of the critics of the FO on the thread.  

 

And then we got some Scot critics (not all of them) who seem to come off like hammering Scot is show of solidarity and a nod to Bruce.   The funny thought to me is if Scot was some sort of disaster.  The last person it makes look good is Bruce.  Bruce is the dude who brought him here.  It's part of the odd thing I notice with some of the Dan/Bruce versus the world debates.  We got these guys pitted against the very people they hired as if they are mutually exclusive versus tied together. Bruce hired Scot.  If Scot was bad.  Bruce looks bad.  

 

Now on Scot even though its off topic but purely for entertainment purposes.  If you judge him by how he looks at talent versus trying to one up the guy. Here's my take.  By that i mean we want our personnel guy judged by their scouting ability not random luck.  Bill Polian talked about the luck factor in a post I attached here earlier.  Then here's my take on the drafts:

 

2015 Draft

Scherff is a pro bowl guard, he's been awesome so far this season

Preston Smith -- very good rookie year, down sophomore year, looking very good again.  Looks like a really good player

Matt Jones -- didn't work out, so bad pick.  Believe it or not most late 3rd round picks do fail. It's not a crime. 

Jamison Crowder:  stud

Spaight -- started yesterday looks good, good pick for a 5th rounder

Jarrett -- good.  The pick was a hit. Scot can't foresee a stinger that will end his career 

Reiter -- is on the Browns roster, started the beginning of last season until he got hurt.

 

Mel Kiper after the 2015 season said the Redskins had the best draft that year judging by season 1.  It's looking like a very good draft.  Not a mediocre or even just a good one.  And that's not a sleight on Bruce.  Again it makes Bruce look good not bad.   He's the dude who hired him.

 

I know some seem to think most picks should be hits.  In theory I get it.  Every draft pick is like opening a Christmas present.  But once you get outside of round 1, odds are greater that you will miss than hit on your pick.  If you get 3 really good players out of a draft.  A 4th player too but he had a career ending injury.  And a 5th player who is making a contribution and might be starter material -- that's very good. 

 

2016 Draft

Doctson:  Incomplete.  If people want to be stirred up about him, I get that.  But we can't say he's a bust.  He's just starting to play.  We keep hearing he's a stud in practice and the best receiver in camp. Lets see him sink or swim during the season.

Cravens -- OK but not great season 1. Obviously whatever is cooking right now looks bad.  Beat reporters seem to hint is a family issue and health issue that has nothing to do with football.  If people want to blame Scot for it, fine.  Weird.  But I'll run with it because Cravens isn't essential to judging this draft anyway.

Fuller:  Looking like a really good pick so far this year.

Ioannidis:  Looking like the best D lineman on the team -- great 5th round pick.

He traded his 4th round pick and picked up 3 picks for the 2017 draft -- this barely gets mentioned, its irrelevant right?  Well those picks landed Perine among others.

The other late round picks, Sudfeld, Daniels, Marshall -- don't look hot aside from maybe Marshall who looked good in camp until he got hurt again.

 

I'd rate this draft as good (not as good as 2015) if Doctson emerges as a good player, mediocre (albeit not bad) if he doesn't.  If he comes out of that draft with a #1 WR, top rate slot corner, and good DT starter -- along with adding 3 picks for 2017 along the ride, that's a nice job.  But Doctson has to emerge.  Just my 2 cents.  

 

   

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

How do you fault him for cravens?

GMs get credit for hits, and blame for misses.  At this moment, Cravens is a miss, and that's on SM's room bill.  

 

10 hours ago, carex said:

 

I always thought he was supposed to be a guy good at finding gems at the bottoms of drafts.  That has not worked out

 

2 hours ago, Reaper Skins said:

Rob Kelley?  Ioannidis?  Spaight?  Crowder?  Roullier? Nicholsen?  He almost hit more on his lower round guys than his high round guys

I would remove the picks from this year, but year.  He did a better job later in the draft.  Also that safety (I can't remember his name) that suffered the somewhat tragic career ending injury.  

 

As far as Doctson, at this very moment in time, he's a miss.  Because he's mostly been hurt, and was trending toward He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named territory. (2nd round pick in 2008 who was hurt and never played, nickname was a hair styling product.)  

 

That said, he seems to be healthy, and progressing, so he can pull himself out of that distinction.  But you judge based on current information.  He essentially red-shirted his rookie year, and was hurt for most of his sophomore year training camp.  That wasn't good. 

 

I'm really hopeful that he's turned the corner, and will continue to grow and be a star in the offense.  He's got the talent to do it.  But he needs the reps.  Both practice and game.  

 

EDIT: I should add, I'm not a Scot critic.  I think he did an ok job.  I also think that he brought an energy to the locker room which was necessary.  And finally, I think that he had a lot to do with convincing the owner/president to give Kirk a shot over Griffin.  

 

He also had some good picks.  But he had some misses.  FA was uneven.  I'd say overall I'd grade his tenure as a B.