The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

And apparently the succession of posts by VOS, SNS and Carex was coincidental lol...

 

Guess so.  I should have just trusted my instincts.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

^^ LOL ...I trusted the wrong force...

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

The Skins would have to be certifiably stupid to take 2 1st round draft picks for Cousins.

Disagree..CLEVELAND"S 2 1st's (1st and 12th) with Colt as a stop gap = Garrett for Defense and TOP Safety at 12...Then Next Year draft a QB for the future.

*I* see THAT as a winning trade to upgrade the team long term. Veteran QB's will also be available and we don't know what we have Sudfeld.

 

Not just ANY 2st's - Clevelands

 

John Elway did it with Denver with an OTH QB. Build the D first. Just like Houston and pickup a QB after you have the D...you CAN win going that route too

 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

A.  If the idea is maybe it would be intriguing to trade Kirk and see what we can get for him -- I'd be all in on this, yeah run this right up to the draft and see what teams offer.  

 

B.  If you are of the mind that the team for 25 years or so failed to find a franchise QB and we don't want to start over from scratch let alone trust that they strike lightening in a bottle and find a new franchise QB quickly in spite of their abysmal track record on these quests in the past -- then the idea of trading Kirk has zero appeal.   I am in this category.

 

You got a bunch of people (though not all) on this thread that fall in the B category so the idea of getting jazzed about Bruce trying to jack up Kirk's trade value before the draft -- has no appeal to people with that mindset    If you take Bruce at his word he isn't try to trade Kirk but just get them to agree on price.  If the idea is what do you have to lose by dragging this out until the wire on July 15th -- because maybe Kirk's agent relents -- I can ride on that logic. 

Door A. You don't know what you don't know. Nobody thought Minnesota would deal with Jimmy. Cleveland's #1 and #12 would upgrade the D real quick if we can't get a LTD done on draft day...hard choices..BUT *I* don't see the sky falling if it happens in 2017. 2018..I would be worried

[HTTRDynasty]

I'm starting to think that we have a specific target at QB in this years' draft (hopefully in the 3rd round or later), and if that guy falls to us, we will be willing to trade Kirk or let him play his last year here and accept the fact that we will only be receiving a comp pick in return.  If that guy doesn't fall to us, we'll increase our offer and become more serious about getting the LTD done. 

 

Just a hunch.

[Veryoldschool]

1 hour ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Disagree..CLEVELAND"S 2 1st's (1st and 12th) with Colt as a stop gap = Garrett for Defense and TOP Safety at 12...Then Next Year draft a QB for the future.

*I* see THAT as a winning trade to upgrade the team long term. Veteran QB's will also be available and we don't know what we have Sudfeld.

 

Not just ANY 2st's - Clevelands

 

John Elway did it with Denver with an OTH QB. Build the D first. Just like Houston and pickup a QB after you have the D...you CAN win going that route too

 

 Yes, of course you can.  You can also get to Paris by flying West,  it just takes a lot longer.  I prefer the direct eastward route myself.

 

If you think trading a 28 year old Pro Bowl QB for 2 pig in poke draft picks from Cleveland is a winner than I'm glad you aren't involved in making these decisions for the Skins.  Thankfully, Dan Snyder isn't going to get that chance unless he signs Cousins before the draft.  I don't think that happens in fact at this point I expect them to have tag Cousins again next year.

 

I think it would be funny if next year the Skins put the transition tag on Cousins and he signs the tender without bothering to entertaining any offers, smiles and plays 2018 for 28M and other than that the Skins get bupkis.

[Taylor 36]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I'm starting to think that we have a specific target at QB in this years' draft (hopefully in the 3rd round or later), and if that guy falls to us, we will be willing to trade Kirk or let him play his last year here and accept the fact that we will only be receiving a comp pick in return.  If that guy doesn't fall to us, we'll increase our offer and become more serious about getting the LTD done. 

 

Just a hunch.

Based on what?

[HTTRDynasty]

19 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

Based on what?

 

It's just a hunch based on the way things have been playing out with the contract situation so far.  I'm not trying to break any news here.

[Morneblade]

6 hours ago, bowhunter said:

It's fair to entertain the idea that Gruden hasn't been choosing our QBs for the past 25 years, and possible that BA has faith in his eye/developmental abilities.

 

Not really. Most coaches make lousy scouts.

21 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

It's just a hunch based on the way things have been playing out with the contract situation so far.  I'm not trying to break any news here.

 

Man, you need to get rid of the tin foil hat. What is going on right now is par for the course. Just breathe

[HTTRDynasty]

11 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

Man, you need to get rid of the tin foil hat. What is going on right now is par for the course. Just breathe

 

[Morneblade]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

Nice!

[ThomasRoane]

19 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Why would Bruce want to shut the door before July 15???? There is NO gain to sign early.

 

 

There may not be a lot to gain but there is potentially a lot to lose.

 

1.  Season ticket sales

2.  Sales of Redskin's gear (the way players come and go so often how many players on the team are you ready to put down $100 for their jersey?)

3.  Chance at any free agents who may be cut after the draft because someone just drafted a cheaper solution; assuming the most likely scenario that Kirk's cap hit will be less than the $24.6M it is currently. (If Kirk is not signed to a LTD then we can all surmise that this will be his last year as a Redskin).

4.  Any semblance of stability (losing a GM and a franchise QB in the same year is not a sign of competence).  The Redskins will continue to be looked upon as a team that will once in a while be a threat but usually not a factor. 

 

[carex]

I don't think the fans should "surmise" anything of the sort.  We can transition tag him and match an offer

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

32 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

There may not be a lot to gain but there is potentially a lot to lose.

 

1.  Season ticket sales

2.  Sales of Redskin's gear (the way players come and go so often how many players on the team are you ready to put down $100 for their jersey?)

3.  Chance at any free agents who may be cut after the draft because someone just drafted a cheaper solution; assuming the most likely scenario that Kirk's cap hit will be less than the $24.6M it is currently. (If Kirk is not signed to a LTD then we can all surmise that this will be his last year as a Redskin).

4.  Any semblance of stability (losing a GM and a franchise QB in the same year is not a sign of competence).  The Redskins will continue to be looked upon as a team that will once in a while be a threat but usually not a factor. 

 

After July 15, this could be a factor if no LTD or GOOD trade happens. Before..not so much. Cuts don't happen after the draft. MOST good players are CUT when teams have to get to the 53 man roster. Before that is training material..and jerseys are based on the 53 man roster.

 

Managing the cap...we don't know what the rooks will consume of the cap. Need to get that done and see what is there as a cap hit to guarantee any of Kirk's money for 2017. That's why we need till July 15 to manage the cap hits. Just seems smart (if you take emotions out of it). Yes, the Snyder effect has been a bad experience for 20+ years...lets see if it continues before immolate ourselves

[goskins10]

26 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

There may not be a lot to gain but there is potentially a lot to lose.

 

1.  Season ticket sales

2.  Sales of Redskin's gear (the way players come and go so often how many players on the team are you ready to put down $100 for their jersey?)

3.  Chance at any free agents who may be cut after the draft because someone just drafted a cheaper solution; assuming the most likely scenario that Kirk's cap hit will be less than the $24.6M it is currently. (If Kirk is not signed to a LTD then we can all surmise that this will be his last year as a Redskin).

4.  Any semblance of stability (losing a GM and a franchise QB in the same year is not a sign of competence).  The Redskins will continue to be looked upon as a team that will once in a while be a threat but usually not a factor. 

 

 

#1 - Very little if any impact. People wanting season tickets are not waiting to hear about Kirk this year. If they don't sign him this year, then this may be more of impact next year. But people know he will be on the field for Washington this year.

 

#2 - Virtually zero impact. Fans are fans. If they want the jersey they will buy it.

 

#3 - The extra CAP is unlikely to be more than $5M. They can get more than $9M making a few other moves. No one is being cut after the draft that is  Norman/D Jackson type. This is a non-issue.

 

#4 - Nationally and with the local media this will not change even if they sign him right now. The Redskins are the NFL's and DC media whipping boy. Don't get me wrong, DS has caused it and much of it is deserved. But signing Kirk will not change that in any significant way good or bad. The team will still be presented as dysfunctional. The story will be "Why did it take so long?" "The team is only caving to fans. They really do not like Kirk." Etc. Again, not saying it's not deserved. But signing him now vs. later is not going to reverse that in any significant way.

 

However I agree this would be a great sign to the fan base. A fan base that needs to hear something positive. For whatever reason DS does not value perception and just doing things because it's the right thing to do. BA appears to be working with the same mentality. It will not change many peoples perception of DS (and it should not) but it will make people feel better about the product on the field, not just this year but for the next 4 to 5 yrs.

 

The biggest step change will be if July 15th comes and goes with no deal. At that point even the most optimistic of fans like myself will have had enough. Again, signing him will not change many minds that DS is a complete **** up (yes I have shifted to the dark side.) But I along with many others will feel a lot better about the product on the field and by more optimistic about our chances of winning on Sunday's (or whatever day we play).

 

There is one thing that you didn't list that I believe is the biggest issue of waiting. If he had been signed before free agency, Kirk could have been lobbying guys to come here. That might have been enough to sway Bennie Logan to come here. I remember a big reason Jackson and Norman came here was the full press by other players. Look at Derek Carr in Oakland and some of the stars on other team. I am sure Eli had a part in NY luring Brandon Marshall? Kirk could be helping that and right now why should he.

 

 

 

 

[NewCliche21]

5 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

There may not be a lot to gain but there is potentially a lot to lose.

 

1.  Season ticket sales

2.  Sales of Redskin's gear (the way players come and go so often how many players on the team are you ready to put down $100 for their jersey?)

 

 

 

Wait, $100 for the jersey?  You mean the sleeve?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Some insight into how he negotiates with Cousins and his agent, maybe?...From a WP article:

 

"According to Steinberg, Allen’s “all-star sense of humor” in his days handling player contracts as an Oakland Raiders executive leavened a particularly tough negotiation over terms for defensive tackle Darrell Russell.

 

“Each offer he emailed he had a different name in the subject line: The ‘Double-Scoop’ offer, the ‘Take-It-Or-You’ll-Die Offer’ or the ‘Two-Minutes-to-Midnight’ offer,” Steinberg recalled, laughing. “Then it would be followed by a droll or funny introduction that had me laughing. Bruce was able to defuse what normally would be a tense moment. His people skills are off the map.”

 

These days, according to agent Peter Schaffer, Allen’s Redskins contracts include performance incentives he names for the team’s greats. A quarterback’s contract might include “the Billy Kilmer clause;” a running back’s deal, “the Larry Brown incentive.”

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

Some insight into how he negotiates with Cousins and his agent, maybe?...From a WP article:

 

"According to Steinberg, Allen’s “all-star sense of humor” in his days handling player contracts as an Oakland Raiders executive leavened a particularly tough negotiation over terms for defensive tackle Darrell Russell.

 

“Each offer he emailed he had a different name in the subject line: The ‘Double-Scoop’ offer, the ‘Take-It-Or-You’ll-Die Offer’ or the ‘Two-Minutes-to-Midnight’ offer,” Steinberg recalled, laughing. “Then it would be followed by a droll or funny introduction that had me laughing. Bruce was able to defuse what normally would be a tense moment. His people skills are off the map.”

 

These days, according to agent Peter Schaffer, Allen’s Redskins contracts include performance incentives he names for the team’s greats. A quarterback’s contract might include “the Billy Kilmer clause;” a running back’s deal, “the Larry Brown incentive.”

 

 

 

Those cute tactics though need to be tailored to the audience -- hopefully he has some Lord of the Rings metaphors cooking for Kirk.  That just might get him to take an offer with low guaranteed money. 

 

this actually was my favorite part of that article

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/bruce-allen-faces-greatest-redskins-challenge-getting-daniel-snyder-a-new-stadium-deal/2017/04/21/be2942cc-1ebb-11e7-a0a7-8b2a45e3dc84_story.html?utm_term=.59aa051dc4b5

A moment later, a lobbyist’s young son sporting a Ryan Kerrigan jersey and carrying an autographed Redskins football approaches and starts telling Allen why quarterback Kirk Cousins deserves a big contract. Allen replies with a good-natured laugh and tousles the boy’s blond hair.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Those cute tactics though need to be tailored to the audience -- hopefully he has some Lord of the Rings metaphors cooking for Kirk.  That just might get him to take an offer with low guaranteed money. 

 

 

LOL ...sooo true!!

[BleedBNG]

On 4/20/2017 at 5:25 PM, HTTRDynasty said:

I'm starting to think that we have a specific target at QB in this years' draft (hopefully in the 3rd round or later), and if that guy falls to us, we will be willing to trade Kirk or let him play his last year here and accept the fact that we will only be receiving a comp pick in return.  If that guy doesn't fall to us, we'll increase our offer and become more serious about getting the LTD done. 

 

Just a hunch.

 

If your talking trans tag, there is no comp pick. But you may have a point if the FO does not sign KC to a LTC this year. They may pick Nate Peterman in the 2nd round because this need will have to be addressed if they plan on just letting KC play out his last year here. Waiting to get a QB in the draft for next year will be another year to get him ready whereas Peterman could be ready for 2018. I personally think (now that the schedule is out) we will go 7-9 (8-8 at best) this year and probably not make the playoffs. I hope the FO does not listen to the fans and just let KC play his last year here on the tag. 

[HTTRDynasty]

Man, just thinking about it this morning, the #1 thing we need to have happen in the draft in regards to the Kirk situation is for SF to take a QB in the 1st round. It doesn't have to be #2 overall, but them committing a 1st round pick to a QB just removes so much of Kirk's leverage. 

 

Kirk could obviously still hit the open market next year, but it would remove his strongest suitor and the only HC he trusts and has familiarity with. I guess the Rams would be likely to give up on Goff if he plays terribly this season, but if that happens, the Rams will likely suck enough to land a top pick in the 2018 draft and have a chance at drafting Darnold or one of the other really good QBs coming out next year. 

 

Waiting to see what SF does in the draft is probably a big contributing factor to us low-balling Kirk so far.  It's a big risk though because if they don't draft a QB high, they will be broadcasting loud and clear to Kirk that they are waiting for him with open arms. Which is huge for a QB who "just wants to be where he's wanted". 

[WelshSkinsFan]

6 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Man, just thinking about it this morning, the #1 thing we need to have happen in the draft in regards to the Kirk situation is for SF to take a QB in the 1st round. It doesn't have to be #2 overall, but them committing a 1st round pick to a QB just removes so much of Kirk's leverage. 

 

Kirk could obviously still hit the open market next year, but it would remove his strongest suitor and the only HC he trusts and has familiarity with. I guess the Rams would be likely to give up on Goff if he plays terribly this season, but if that happens, the Rams will likely suck enough to land a top pick in the 2018 draft and have a chance at drafting Darnold or one of the other really good QBs coming out next year. 

 

Waiting to see what SF does in the draft is probably a big contributing factor to us low-balling Kirk so far.  It's a big risk though because if they don't draft a QB high, they will be broadcasting loud and clear to Kirk that they are waiting for him with open arms. Which is huge for a QB who "just wants to be where he's wanted". 

 

There has been a lot of chatter about the Browns being split over whether to take Garrett or Trubisky with the first pick and I had wondered why that was even a discussion when Garrett is so clearly the stud of the draft.  I read today though that the reason is they were hoping to get Trubisky with the 12th pick but are now convinced he will be taken by the 49ers with the second pick.  I wouldn't normally place much faith in a story like this but it originated with Mary Kay Cabot who covers the Browns beat and she is pretty spot on with most of her info.  If the 49ers do take him I don't think it will alter the price if that is what Bruce is thinking but I will feel a heck of a lot more optimistic that Kirk will sign long term, even if it is not until 2018.

[Tsailand]

6 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Man, just thinking about it this morning, the #1 thing we need to have happen in the draft in regards to the Kirk situation is for SF to take a QB in the 1st round. It doesn't have to be #2 overall, but them committing a 1st round pick to a QB just removes so much of Kirk's leverage.

 

It really doesn't.  SF and LA are Kirk's two favorite destinations, but many other teams need QBs and will make him good offers once he is available.

 

Furthermore, you are using wishful thinking to come up with the best possible scenario.  That works both ways; I can come up with plenty of scenarios going the other way:

 

What if QB Rams and QB 49ers have poor seasons, but thanks to a few good defensive efforts and special teams bounces, their teams get to 6 wins?  Or what if the 49ers go 1-15, then sign Kirk anyway and trade their #1 overall pick for a boatload of high picks?  What if Carson Wentz has a horrific season?  What if Eli has a horrific season and/or retires?  What if the Broncos and Texas still need a QB next year?

 

What if our defense is horrible again and Kirk is forced to throw for 5500 yards?

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, Tsailand said:

 

It really doesn't.  SF and LA are Kirk's two favorite destinations, but many other teams need QBs and will make him good offers once he is available.

 

Furthermore, you are using wishful thinking to come up with the best possible scenario.  That works both ways; II can come up with plenty of scenarios going the other way: What if QB Rams and QB 49ers have poor seasons, but thanks to a few good defensive efforts and special teams bounces, their teams get to 6 wins?  Or what if the 49ers go 1-15, then sign Kirk anyway and trade their #1 overall pick for a boatload of high picks?  What if Carson Wentz has a horrific season?  What if Eli has a horrific season and/or retires?  What if the Broncos and Texas still need a QB next year?

 

What if our defense is horrible again and Kirk is forced to throw for 5500 yards?

 

What if a some QBs retire and a bunch more turn mediocre and get cut?  Oh wait, that happens every year.

 

 

I think you're missing the point.  SF is his favorite destination because he knows Kyle and his system so well and knows he can have success in it.  That is not the case with the other teams he may sign with (besides LA if Goff doesn't work out).  I'm not saying it guarantees he stays here.  I'm saying it will help our leverage and make him more likely to accept a bit of a discount.  He would be able to stay in a place where he can trust the HC and his system, and somewhere he knows he can succeed.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

12 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I think you're missing the point.  SF is his favorite destination because he knows Kyle and his system so well and knows he can have success in it.  That is not the case with the other teams he may sign with (besides LA if Goff doesn't work out).  I'm not saying it guarantees he stays here.  I'm saying it will help our leverage and make him more likely to accept a bit of a discount.  He would be able to stay in a place where he can trust the HC and his system, and somewhere he knows he can succeed.

 

In other words, it makes next offseason more up in the air for Cousins, which I'm sure no player really wants.