The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Est.1974]

Kirks price is only heading upwards. The greater the delay, the greater the cost impact to us on any kind of LTD in my view. 

[Burgold]

We can only hope Kirk's value is increasing. That's the worst part of this Redskins' gamble. The Front Office only wins if the team loses. 

[Skinsinparadise]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/04/18/redskins-fans-still-focused-on-kirk-cousins-as-nfl-draft-draws-near/?utm_term=.3e3c34db4a41

If Skins are offering $20 million and Cousins Camp wants $24 million, why aren’t we just making a long-term deal in the middle, around $22 million and moving on? Is it Kirk not wanting to be in D.C., or his agent just wanting to make a name for himself? 

– Ashley Edwards, Palm Harbor, Fla.

I know how frustrating it is for fans. It’s also confusing. I can tell you that Kirk Cousins’s agent, Mike McCartney, is not handling this the way he is because he’s trying to make a name for himself, though. It’s his job to get his client the best deal possible, and find him the best possible situation. If Cousins was irked by the Redskins’ lack of legitimate commitment, and if he doesn’t know that he wants to be here, then McCartney is doing the right thing by not having Cousins sign a long-term deal. It’s smart to go year-by-year, and then hit free agency next year. So that’s why things are the way they are right now.

 

The Redskins haven’t done anything to ease things in Cousins’s mind. The Redskins, even now, aren’t opening the checkbook. Their deal, which featured an average of $20 million per year, sounds decent. But from what I was told, the guaranteed portion of that offer was very low and inadequate. So, if the Redskins really wanted to make Cousins feel wanted, they could, but have not.

I hate to ask a Kirk Cousins/contract question, however …. With several interviews with Bruce Allen having taken place in the last month, has anyone asked point blank, “You are quoted as saying the Redskins want KC long term, you are quoted as saying the contract is not that difficult, then why hasn’t it been completed?” If so, then I missed the interview. Can you give me his answer to this very direct question?

That’s a very good question, but no, it hasn’t been asked of Allen as of yet. It’s a very good follow-up question. There’s supposed to be some pre-draft media availability next Monday, presumably with Bruce Allen (although it could be someone else). But, if it’s Allen, that question will definitely be asked. Now, I have to caution you that Allen really struggles to answer anything directly, so, don’t get your hopes up for the real behind-the-scenes explanation as to why things haven’t gotten done between the Redskins and Cousins. Most likely, we’ll get some kind of spin and some variation of, “we’re still talking and we’re still confident we’ll get something done.”

[TheShredder]

Should we?  They did already.

Shouldn't we?  They did already. 

LTD?  Yes. They have to pay him.  KC is the best QB in the NFC.  Look at the rankings and the stats. 

Is KC a top 10 QB?  Yes.  Anyone who doesn't rank him in the top 10 is not credible.

Will KC get better?  Yes.  Historically year 3 as a starter should exceed other years in the same offense with increased results. 

2017 Expectations?  KC will get a +100M contract and enough guaranteed money to make sense for him to sign it.  This won't hinder the results for KC, as he's bullish with increasing results that have no reasons to diminish.  With the larger targets and even a moderate solution at RB, the increase should result in TD's. 

2017 Predictions- KC will break his own passing yardage in a season for the third straight year and have better success with taller/wider targets.  +34 TDs

Skins will compete for the NFC title and return to the playoffs.  They may fall short of a division title, however a Wild Card game will give KC a chance to avenge previous playoff losses and the 3rd years the charm! 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

8 hours ago, Burgold said:

We can only hope Kirk's value is increasing. That's the worst part of this Redskins' gamble. The Front Office only wins if the team loses. 

 

Actually I think it's the opposite...the only way the FO loses is if they invest two franchise tags into what they feel is their franchise QB and then Cousins and the team start losing. They've lost the $$, they're out a QB, they've flushed any decent trade value down the toilet, and they've put themselves at least 2 years behind the curve in terms of fielding a consistently competitive team.

 

Thats why I've always believed that the FO went into the 2016 tag wanting to make sure Cousins wasn't a half-year wonder and were praying Cousins plays well again, even if it raises his demands more...and have gone into the 2017 tag wanting to make sure he remains their QB and signed to a LTD, even if it takes right up to the deadline. 

 

This part has nothing to do with you, Burgold lol...but Ive said before, but all the angst seems to derive from a belief that there's no legitimate reason not to have signed Cousins by now--and by extension no legit reason to not offer him far more than the generic average of $20 mil/yr contract. If we were actually in Allen's shoes and had immediate access to ALL the performance data and film study, all the  negotiating tactics and private off-the-cuff convos with Kirk's agent, and understood exactly how the 3-year plan for the Redskins should best play out to achieve consistent success and what role Cousins' LTD plays in it, we might not only feel less angst about how it all is currently proceeding, we might even agree with a lot of the decisions being made.

 

As fans, though, I guess it's easier to believe the only guy who had a plan just got fired and the remaining decision-makers have thrown away his blueprint, instead basing personnel decisions on little more than their friendship with past players, spite against a past coach and "pride/ego". 

[Burgold]

Just now, Califan007 said:

 

Thats why I've always believed that the FO went into the 2016 tag wanting to make sure Cousins wasn't a half-year wonder and were praying Cousins plays well again, even if it raises his demands more...and have gone into the 2017 tag wanting to make sure he remains their QB and signed to a LTD, even if it takes right up to the deadline. 

 

I buy that logic for last year, but much less for this year. I actually wanted Cousins to reprove himself and was worried he might be a one year fluke as we have seen with so many QBs. His snapshot chances prior to 2015 were very hit and miss and even 2015 started out pretty shakily. This year, I wanted the front office to come out with an offer that was much more robust. Maybe they did. Maybe they gave his camp an offer that they felt would blow him out of the water.

 

I'm not "mad" at the front office, but I am a bit frustrated and impatient with both sides. I do think Cousins' side is greedy, but I think greedy is par for the course for every athlete come contract time except for those rare athletes who make so much money via endorsements that their salary is actually their second income. In other words, I don't begrudge Cousins his greediness. I do slightly question the Front Office if they're trying to work a deal and a home field steal. 

 

I still hope they get it done. It won't be cheap. If they don't get a LTD signed I will not be pleased with either side. I don't think it will impact this year that much, but it makes it that much tougher to make a 3-5 year plan.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

30 minutes ago, Burgold said:

 I still hope they get it done. It won't be cheap. If they don't get a LTD signed I will not be pleased with either side. I don't think it will impact this year that much, but it makes it that much tougher to make a 3-5 year plan.

 

My honest belief right now is there's an 85% chance they have a LTD done by the deadline...and apparently the antsy feelings of frustration and impatience among the fans and media members don't trump the reasons for playing the waiting game in the FO's eyes.

 

Once we get past the first few rounds of the draft it might start to feel like the FO really does want to get a LTD done in some fans' minds.

[Burgold]

Hope you're right, Cali. My skepticism keeps rising. There's no reason you have to wait 'til the deadline. Life isn't a 1960's episode of Mission Impossible where every bomb must be defused with less than three second 'til BOOM!

[purbeast]

I had it at 100% they were making a LTD last year and right now for this year I am around 0%.  I was wrong last year so I hope I'm wrong this year.

[Morneblade]

26 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Hope you're right, Cali. My skepticism keeps rising. There's no reason you have to wait 'til the deadline. Life isn't a 1960's episode of Mission Impossible where every bomb must be defused with less than three second 'til BOOM!

 

I agree, but I think Allen will wait to the 11th hour just in case Cousins breaks early. More worried about looking good in regards to the deal, than anything else. I think it will get done. If not.........................................................

 

He probably should be fired.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

39 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Hope you're right, Cali. My skepticism keeps rising. There's no reason you have to wait 'til the deadline. 

 

"Have" to?...maybe not.

 

But there must be good reasons for doing so, or else teams wouldn't have done so over the years.

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

"Have" to?...maybe not.

 

But there must be good reasons for doing so, or else teams wouldn't have done so over the years.

 

It's basically seeing who is going to blink first. That's the only reason why. Not that it has to happen that way, there was a big contract extension today.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

46 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I had it at 100% they were making a LTD last year and right now for this year I am around 0%.  I was wrong last year so I hope I'm wrong this year.

 

Last year I was at 100% they would let Cousins play under the franchise tag. Some here were a bit disappointed and surprised they tagged him to begin with. I also felt that Kirk would kick ass again, be more consistent throughout the entire season, and the Skins would gladly pay a higher price with that level of certainty in his play moving forward...had it at 50/50 they would get it done before the franchise tag date, but figured if they signed him to another FT it was pretty much a lock they will get a LTD done by the deadline. I'm sticking to that original thought lol...

 

i did not, though, expect Cousins to start off so mediocre last season, for RZ woes to plague the offense all year, for McCloughan to be fired, or for Kyle Shanahan to be named head coach of the 49ers with a sweet toof for Cousins lol...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

9 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

It's basically seeing who is going to blink first. That's the only reason why. Not that it has to happen that way, there was a big contract extension today.

 

I think it's more than just "blinking first", though...although that could be part of it. 

[Morneblade]

11 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I think it's more than just "blinking first", though...although that could be part of it. 

 

I think it's a lot of it, especially with Bruce. He wants to get "the deal". And Kirk has a absolute number in his head. It's a game of "Chicken". He he blinks first, looses.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

I think it's a lot of it, especially with Bruce. He wants to get "the deal". And Kirk has a absolute number in his head. It's a game of "Chicken". He he blinks first, looses.

 

I think giving yourself all the time possible to weigh all your options, both known and unknown right now, is also a big part of this process. For all intents and purposes the Skins took that away from Cousins by using the exclusive franchise tag.

 

For instance, maybe something transpires in the draft that takes away some of Kirk's leverage and makes him a little more willing to negotiate...say 49ers draft a QB at #2, or even better for them, trade down several spots, pick up extra draft picks and still draft a QB with their first pick...the whole "Cousins and the 49ers know they can just wait till next year and pick up Kirk in free agency" line of thinking gets tossed out the window in that scenario. If one or two other WB-needy teams also draft a QB in the 1st or even 2nd round, Cousins' perception could be that staying in DC is far more desirable than it was a month earlier.

[Morneblade]

2 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

I think giving yourself all the time possible to weigh all your options, both known and unknown right now, is also a big part of this process. For all intents and purposes the Skins took that away from Cousins by using the exclusive franchise tag.

 

For instance, maybe something transpires in the draft that takes away some of Kirk's leverage and makes him a little more willing to negotiate...say 49ers draft a QB at #2, or even better for them, trade down several spots, pick up extra draft picks and still draft a QB with their first pick...the whole "Cousins and the 49ers know they can just wait till next year and pick up Kirk in free agency" line of thinking gets tossed out the window in that scenario. If one or two other WB-needy teams also draft a QB in the 1st or even 2nd round, Cousins' perception could be that staying in DC is far more desirable than it was a month earlier.

 

I don't think the FO really has any leverage at all. He already called and asked if they were considering trading him, they said no. True or not, what are we going to get for him that would remotely be fair?

 

Besides, all Kirk has to do is not get a LTD this year, take his 24 million and play. Then we hit 2018, and we have less leverage. Either pay 28 million or let him go for nothing.

 

So, in 3 years Kirk makes 72 million dollars. Or 44 million over 2 years and we have nothing to show for it. I'm not sure where our leverage comes into play.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

I don't think the FO really has any leverage at all. He already called and asked if they were considering trading him, they said now. True or not, what are we going to get for him that would remotely be fair?

 

Besides, all Kirk has to do is not get a LTD this year, take his 24 million and play. Then we hit 2018, and we have less leverage. Either pay 28 million or let him go for nothing.

 

So, in 3 years Kirk makes 72 million dollars. Or 44 million over 2 years and we have nothing to show for it. I'm not sure where our leverage comes into play.

 

We were talking about why the Skins would use all of the signing timeline to try and sign him...you felt it was mainly just to see who "blinks" first...I said it was also likely to give themselves all available time to see what else develops and weigh all options that might come your way, which they took away from Kirk by applying the exclusive tag.

 

I didn't mention anything about trades or available options in 2018 lol...

[Morneblade]

31 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

We were talking about why the Skins would use all of the signing timeline to try and sign him...you felt it was mainly just to see who "blinks" first...I said it was also likely to give themselves all available time to see what else develops and weigh all options that might come your way, which they took away from Kirk by applying the exclusive tag.

 

I didn't mention anything about trades or available options in 2018 lol...

 

I wasn't either. I was referring to your comments on trades this year.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

25 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

I wasn't either. I was referring to your comments on trades this year.

 

You were comnenting on the Skins possibility of trading Cousins. I never mentioned trade options in my post lol...

 

I mentioned "what if" the 49ers trade down from #2 with someone and still draft a QB with their first pick.

[trueskins2012]

kirk cousins benefits from having trent williams allow 0 pressures and a stacked offense. basically rg3 suffered through the growing phase and kirk comes in when the team is good and drags them to a mediocre 8-8 when they are a 10-6 at least team. the guy choked our playoffs away and demanded a trade and won't agree to the redskins offer because he thinks he deserves more money than the skins are offering. please have you seen this guy try to throw a hail mary? he lacks any physical traits that nfl quarterbacks have. if you have 0 pressure and you want someone to throw to open j reed and still throw regular interceptable passes. kirk is your man. gruden pads his stats harder than any player I have ever seen. so his stats out the window your looking at a very selfish and sub par quarterback. I say let the man walk and we let anyone else play the position of qb better than him. lets just see how another qb does in our offense. if we sign kirk longterm we will never make the superbowl...end of story so if we are content with 3 and just being 7-9 the next 5 years than resign him. Can we PLEASE trade him to cleaveland for a 1st round pick? that would be the biggest steal of our era. 

[elkabong82]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

I don't think the FO really has any leverage at all. 

 

I think they have some leverage, though Kirk has a lot more obviously.

 

The team has leverage in that the system here is what Kirk is successful with. He has excellent weapons for the pass game and a solid OL. Free agency has gone good and if the draft goes well then this team is still on the rise and a place Kirk can win. Any other team interested doesn't have that kind of familiarity with success on offense. In other words the FO has leverage in that the Skins are the familiar, the system Kirk knows and thrives in. 

4 minutes ago, trueskins2012 said:

kirk cousins benefits from having trent williams allow 0 pressures and a stacked offense. basically rg3 suffered through the growing phase and kirk comes in when the team is good and drags them to a mediocre 8-8 when they are a 10-6 at least team. the guy choked our playoffs away and demanded a trade and won't agree to the redskins offer because he thinks he deserves more money than the skins are offering. please have you seen this guy try to throw a hail mary? he lacks any physical traits that nfl quarterbacks have. if you have 0 pressure and you want someone to throw to open j reed and still throw regular interceptable passes. kirk is your man. gruden pads his stats harder than any player I have ever seen. so his stats out the window your looking at a very selfish and sub par quarterback. I say let the man walk and we let anyone else play the position of qb better than him. lets just see how another qb does in our offense. if we sign kirk longterm we will never make the superbowl...end of story so if we are content with 3 and just being 7-9 the next 5 years than resign him. Can we PLEASE trade him to cleaveland for a 1st round pick? that would be the biggest steal of our era. 

 

[readonly]

Approaching this situation from purely logical standpoint:

 

-in any negotiation, the bargaining point for either party is leveraging their "best alternative to the proposed agreement."  Kirk's BAPA is to it free agency where at this time multiple teams will compete to pay him a lot of money.  The Redskins BAPA is to tag Kirk again for another  year at 28M, which is also a pretty good deal for him.

 

-This situation gives Kirk all of the leverage and the Redskins none.  This is a terrible negotiating position.  If he doesn't want to be there, even if he just doesn't care one way or the other, then there is no incentive for him to come to the table.

 

So, what is the best way for the Redskins to improve this dismal negotiating situation?  How can they create a bargaining position for themselves?

 

I think the only solution is to take the best QB available in the first round of the draft when the pick comes up.  This will instantly devalue Kirk.  A new quarterback will be learning under him this year.  This gives the Redskins a BAPA that doesn't involve Kirk.  Other teams will know this and they also will be able to adjust their bidding accordingly if and when he hits free agency.  The 28M tag idea goes away completely.  His value levels out around 20M/year.  This is what they need to do to create a light at the end of this dismal tunnel of one way leverage that they are stuck in.

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

You were comnenting on the Skins possibility of trading Cousins. I never mentioned trade options in my post lol...

 

I mentioned "what if" the 49ers trade down from #2 with someone and still draft a QB with their first pick.

 

Ah, then I misread your post then.

 

 

1 hour ago, elkabong82 said:

 

I think they have some leverage, though Kirk has a lot more obviously.

 

The team has leverage in that the system here is what Kirk is successful with. He has excellent weapons for the pass game and a solid OL. Free agency has gone good and if the draft goes well then this team is still on the rise and a place Kirk can win. Any other team interested doesn't have that kind of familiarity with success on offense. In other words the FO has leverage in that the Skins are the familiar, the system Kirk knows and thrives in. 

 

 

 

True, but a team, like say Houston, has a fantastic Defense, a #1 WR and the only thing really missing is a QB. He goes there, they are probably a top 4 team.

 

I think Kirk can run just about any offense. He's smart, accurate and makes quick reads. And I think he thinks that too.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Man do we love mishandling situations. Anyway, we all know this ends one of two ways. Kirk is either going to go to another team and wins multiple Super Bowls or we'll sign him for 10 years, $300 million and then run read option to the wide side of the field at least two times per possession until he needs a colostomy.