The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Morneblade]

4 hours ago, tshile said:

Has anyone sent this to SM, Allen, and Snyder?

 

I feel like it's something they should know.

 

From what they have said, they are much further ahead than you are.

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

It just seems like the only place you really hear about Kirk being a top 5 / Tier 1 sort of guy is on ES. Outside of here the general consensus according to people in the league as well as sports writers/analysts, seems to be that Kirk is a Tier 3/borderline Tier 2 guy. Now that can obviously be taken with a grain of salt because the league sources who are being asked this are doing it anonymously (or just referred to as an "NFC GM" or something generic), and sports analysts can be dumbasses. However, it just feel like we're overestimating how good everyone outside of ES thinks he is. I really haven't seen any analyses were he's above top 15 to top 10. And while sports writers can be dumbasses and NFL GMs, etc can certainly be wrong....the same can be said for fans on a message board. 

 

Then you need to get out more.

 

[Veryoldschool]

21 hours ago, elkabong82 said:

 

Because they've had 2 winning seasons in a row, the team President is a good negotiator who doesn't over pay free agents, the GM has a proven track record of success, and the head coach produces an elite offense.

 

Fine, feel reassured about the ownership and management team if you wish by the last two season.  I remember 20 years of ridiculous decisions and dysfunction and thought we're headed down that path again.

[Morneblade]

6 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Fine, feel reassured about the ownership and management team if you wish by the last two season.  I remember 20 years of ridiculous decisions and dysfunction and thought we're headed down that path again.

 

I remember more than 20 years, and what it looked like when it was winning Superbowls. And that is what the FO looks like now. That fact you are buying into a media induced frenzy that has no truth behind it is your fault alone.

[Voice_of_Reason]

36 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

LOL @ the video

 

This is typical Sheehan lately:

 

Cooley: "Redskins put the exclusive tag on Cousins today..."

 

Sheehan: "Cooley, I told you--I told you WEEKS ago--didn't I tell you? I said when Allen made the statement that they want Cousins to play for the Skins, didn't I say that it sounds like Bruce is only saying that so that when they're not able to sign Cousins to a LTD and end up trading him that he can say to the fan base "Hey, we said we wanted him long term"?...And now they are using the exclusive tag because they are scared...they are scared, Cooley. They are scared "S"-less to see what Kirk Cousins is really worth. And they don't want the fans to see it, either. That way when Kirk doesn't take their offer Allen and Snyder can say "Hey, look, we made a fair offer to Cousins"...and now the only option if Cousins isn't signed to a LTD is to pay him $34 million next year as a one-year rental? Cooley, if the Redskins end up paying $79 million for Cousins and he walks and signs with the 49ers or Rams and we get nothing?!...Oh my god, Cooley, how did we end up here!"

 

Me, listening: " 'We' didn't end up ANYWHERE YET, ya idgit!"

You added punctuation.  Sheehan does it all in one breath these days. 

[Peregrine]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

It just seems like the only place you really hear about Kirk being a top 5 / Tier 1 sort of guy is on ES. Outside of here the general consensus according to people in the league as well as sports writers/analysts, seems to be that Kirk is a Tier 3/borderline Tier 2 guy. Now that can obviously be taken with a grain of salt because the league sources who are being asked this are doing it anonymously (or just referred to as an "NFC GM" or something generic), and sports analysts can be dumbasses. However, it just feel like we're overestimating how good everyone outside of ES thinks he is. I really haven't seen any analyses were he's above top 15 to top 10. And while sports writers can be dumbasses and NFL GMs, etc can certainly be wrong....the same can be said for fans on a message board. 

I dont think hes a tier 1 guy, I think hes a tier 2 guy on his way to being a tier 1 guy.  

 

Think about the guys in Tier 1, those who are clearly ahead of Kirk.  Almost all of them have many years of starting experience, while Kirk now has 2.  Those guys are Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, and maybe after this season Matt Ryan.  Maybe Stafford  Kirk is 28.  Brady is 39, Brees is 38, Roethlisberger is 35, Rodgers is 33, the only young one is Ryan at 31, and maybe Stafford at 29.  The LEAST experience one is Stafford, with 7 years starting experience.  Its not even close the amount of experience Cousins has.

 

ABC News did an article at the end of last season, where they polled some GMS, headcoaches, offensive coordinators, etc, and asked them to rank QBs in the league in 5 tiers.  Tier 3 was defined as "Legit starter but needs heavy run game/defense to win".  Now we KNOW thats not true with Kirk.  Tier 2 was "Can carry team sometimes but not as consistently".  Tier 2 for them was the Carson Palmers, the Matthew Staffords, the Andy Daltons, and the Andrew Lucks of the NFL.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Then you need to get out more.

 

Everything I've heard is that Kirk is ~top 10-15.  From everywhere.  (Which isn't terrible.) But he's not (according to most folks that I've heard):

Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Rothlisburger, Ryan, Stafford, Carr, Newton, Wilson, Luck. That's 11 that I just named off.  You could maybe argue a few of those guys based on preference, but he's not top 5, he's not elite.  He's somewhere in the top half of the league. 

 

The question is, do you pay a guy who's 10-15 like he's top 5, because he worked himself into that circumstance?  It's a legitimate question. 

 

They really sealed the deal when they tagged him last year, because that made him a top 5 paid QB, when he wasn't a top 5 QB.  That automatically set the bargaining table. But that's yesterday's news. 

 

Let's talk about how Allen is screwing SM out of power!

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Sheehan: "Cooley, I told you--I told you WEEKS ago--didn't I tell you? I said when Allen made the statement that they want Cousins to play for the Skins, didn't I say that it sounds like Bruce is only saying that so that when they're not able to sign Cousins to a LTD and end up trading him that he can say to the fan base "Hey, we said we wanted him long term"?...And now they are using the exclusive tag because they are scared...they are scared, Cooley. They are scared "S"-less to see what Kirk Cousins is really worth. And they don't want the fans to see it, either. That way when Kirk doesn't take their offer Allen and Snyder can say "Hey, look, we made a fair offer to Cousins"...and now the only option if Cousins isn't signed to a LTD is to pay him $34 million next year as a one-year rental? Cooley, if the Redskins end up paying $79 million for Cousins and he walks and signs with the 49ers or Rams and we get nothing?!...Oh my god, Cooley, how did we end up here!"

 

Me, listening: " 'We' didn't end up ANYWHERE YET, ya idgit!"

 

Yeah I'd say the two most hardcore pro Kirk people on the radio are arguably Sheehan and Paulsen.  And they are both IMO off the rails on the Kirk story.   They are both so negative and obsessively so and they both love to echo that in their minds Kirk doesn't want to be here.  Grant sounds like Kirk's mother going on and on about how he'd advise him to turn down a contract offer, and he shouldn't take 24 million a year but should ask for 25 plus.    Those guys are losing it.   It just walks right into another Seinfeld segment.

 

 

[Suffolk_Skins]

I took a look at this thread. I've just decided to wait it out. It will happen or it won't. I think it will and we will overpay but not massively. 

[mistertim]

37 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

I dont think hes a tier 1 guy, I think hes a tier 2 guy on his way to being a tier 1 guy.  

 

Think about the guys in Tier 1, those who are clearly ahead of Kirk.  Almost all of them have many years of starting experience, while Kirk now has 2.  Those guys are Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, and maybe after this season Matt Ryan.  Maybe Stafford  Kirk is 28.  Brady is 39, Brees is 38, Roethlisberger is 35, Rodgers is 33, the only young one is Ryan at 31, and maybe Stafford at 29.  The LEAST experience one is Stafford, with 7 years starting experience.  Its not even close the amount of experience Cousins has.

 

ABC News did an article at the end of last season, where they polled some GMS, headcoaches, offensive coordinators, etc, and asked them to rank QBs in the league in 5 tiers.  Tier 3 was defined as "Legit starter but needs heavy run game/defense to win".  Now we KNOW thats not true with Kirk.  Tier 2 was "Can carry team sometimes but not as consistently".  Tier 2 for them was the Carson Palmers, the Matthew Staffords, the Andy Daltons, and the Andrew Lucks of the NFL.  

 

I guess it depends on how the Tiers are defined as well. Personally I thought this one was interesting from Gregg Rosenthal at the end of the season. Biggest disagreement is having Dak in Tier 2 at 7 overall. Dude had a pretty good season for a rookie but he also played behind likely the best OL in the league and had the top running game in the league. Waaaaay too early to put him there.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000769426/article/qb-index-tom-brady-owns-no-1-in-yearend-rankings

 

He puts Kirk at 13 overall in the "Part of the solution" category. One thing I found odd is that Eli is two Tiers below him in "Mediocre". Yeah Eli doesn't ball out every game like some elite guys but his playoff runs were really impressive...he's one of those guys who may not put up the most amazing stats all the time but can get it done in crunch time. 

[markmills67]

Just read TK mention on the twitter thread that $23m per year is the latest offer, surely we are getting to the point of Cousins signing a LTD. 

 

HTTR 

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, markmills67 said:

Just read TK mention on the twitter thread that $23m per year is the latest offer, surely we are getting to the point of Cousins signing a LTD. 

 

HTTR 

I took it that way too.  Guessing that IF we go $25 mill a year, it's a done deal.....Personal opinion is that it will have to be more than what Luck is getting on average per year.  Just guessing here though. 

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/heat-index/2016/06/10/nfls-highest-paid-quarterbacks-2016-rankings/85668926/

NFL's highest paid QBs (average salary per year):

 

1. Colts QB Andrew Luck: $24.6 million
2. Saints QB Drew Brees: $24.3 million
3. Ravens QB Joe Flacco: $22.1 million
4. Packers QB Aaron Rodgers: $22 million
5. Seahawks QB Russell Wilson: $21.9 million
6. Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger: $21.85 million
7. Cardinals QB Carson Palmer: $21 million
8. Giants QB Eli Manning: $21 million
9. Chargers QB Philip Rivers: $20.81 million
10. Panthers QB Cam Newton: $20.76 million

[Peregrine]

23 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I guess it depends on how the Tiers are defined as well. Personally I thought this one was interesting from Gregg Rosenthal at the end of the season. Biggest disagreement is having Dak in Tier 2 at 7 overall. Dude had a pretty good season for a rookie but he also played behind likely the best OL in the league and had the top running game in the league. Waaaaay too early to put him there.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000769426/article/qb-index-tom-brady-owns-no-1-in-yearend-rankings

 

He puts Kirk at 13 overall in the "Part of the solution" category. One thing I found odd is that Eli is two Tiers below him in "Mediocre". Yeah Eli doesn't ball out every game like some elite guys but his playoff runs were really impressive...he's one of those guys who may not put up the most amazing stats all the time but can get it done in crunch time. 

And thats an interesting list, though I think it may suffer what many of them do, and that is name bias.  Certain players there are ranking higher than they should after the 2016 campaign simply because of name.  While I know he said he didnt do that, he has Palmer one spot ahead of Kirk.  Palmer only completed 61% of passes, and threw 26TDs to 23 turnovers, all while having a pretty good defense for at least half of the year to make his game a bit easier.  The same goes for Rivers.  And the same goes for Wilson, although he was at least slightly more competent than Rivers.  

 

To me Tier 1 is not 3 guys, its 5-7.  Otherwise  you really are just restricting it to clear Hall of Famers.  If Kirk doesnt throw that pick in the NYG game, and leads us on a TD drive, that alone I think would vault his last season to the top 7.  Hes not there, but hes close.  Will he get there?  No one knows for sure, but I personally would put money on it.

[RWJ]

53 minutes ago, Suffolk_Skins said:

I took a look at this thread. I've just decided to wait it out. It will happen or it won't. I think it will and we will overpay but not massively. 

If you want to call making him the highest paid QB in the NFL per year on average at $25 million but rates will go up year after year.

[MassSkinsFan]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Now that can obviously be taken with a grain of salt because the league sources who are being asked this are doing it anonymously (or just referred to as an "NFC GM" or something generic), 

 

Oh, you mean Stephen A. Smith, a source familiar with the situation, right? 

[DM72]

19 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

Just read TK mention on the twitter thread that $23m per year is the latest offer, surely we are getting to the point of Cousins signing a LTD. 

 

HTTR 

 

If the Skins are offering $23M per, I'd expect a LTD to be reached before free agency starts next week.

[mistertim]

25 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

And thats an interesting list, though I think it may suffer what many of them do, and that is name bias.  Certain players there are ranking higher than they should after the 2016 campaign simply because of name.  While I know he said he didnt do that, he has Palmer one spot ahead of Kirk.  Palmer only completed 61% of passes, and threw 26TDs to 23 turnovers, all while having a pretty good defense for at least half of the year to make his game a bit easier.  The same goes for Rivers.  And the same goes for Wilson, although he was at least slightly more competent than Rivers.  

 

To me Tier 1 is not 3 guys, its 5-7.  Otherwise  you really are just restricting it to clear Hall of Famers.  If Kirk doesnt throw that pick in the NYG game, and leads us on a TD drive, that alone I think would vault his last season to the top 7.  Hes not there, but hes close.  Will he get there?  No one knows for sure, but I personally would put money on it.

 

No doubt the list has flaws. Name recognition is definitely one of them, you're right. And I also agree that only having 3 guys in Tier 1 isn't a very good idea. I'd say more like 5. That was one of the things that irked me about the list a bit...he had 3 guys in Tier 1, 7 guys in Tier 2, then 3 guys in Tier 3. Now, obviously you can't just throw the same number of guys in each Tier on a whim....there has to be a reason. But the discrepancy was pretty glaring IMO. Still thought the list was decent though I would move a few guys around.

 

As far as his ending of the season, I think the Carolina and Giants games definitely hurt him as far as how he's viewed...which is at least somewhat understandable as those were two huge games with "win and in" glowing in neon right on the front. But that's still something of a general concern, and was after the GB playoff game in 2015 as well...that he doesn't perform as well in the biggest games, as well as poor red zone performance (at least in 2016). IMO if/when he gets past those humps (whether real or only perceived...I think it is a little of both) he will be able to elevate himself farther into those top Tiers. We can just hope he does elevate.

 

19 minutes ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

Oh, you mean Stephen A. Smith, a source familiar with the situation, right? 

 

No. You know perfectly well what I meant as far as NFL personnel commenting on players anonymously. 

[BrandonJ83]

12 minutes ago, DM72 said:

 

If the Skins are offering $23M per, I'd expect a LTD to be reached before free agency starts next week.

 

I hope they can reach a deal before then. That way we can know where we stand cap wise for anyone we want to bring in and sign.

[Skinsinparadise]

We're hoping for a long-term deal with him," Allen said. That's what we're going to work towards. Last year we tried. We didn't get that done. This year we'll get it done."

The Redskins have until July 15 to ink a long-term deal with Cousins or he plays 2017 on the franchise tag. That scenario virtually assures Cousins will enter free agency in 2018 and sign elsewhere. If Washington plays out the contract like a classic procrastinator, other complications crop up. The Redskins won't know how much their quarterback will count for on their financial ledger, a true handicap as they pursue other free agents.

If they wait and realize a long-term deal won't happen, then perhaps a trade is the best option. However, the two best windows -- start of free agency (March 7) and the NFL Draft (April 27-29) -- will be over. 

Asked about if the team had an internal deadline, Allen noted Cousins would be prepared "whether it's a 12-year or a 1-year contract," before concluding, "The sooner the better."

http://www.scout.com/nfl/redskins/story/1759394-one-on-one-allen-talks-mccloughan-cousins

[goskins10]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

We're hoping for a long-term deal with him," Allen said. That's what we're going to work towards. Last year we tried. We didn't get that done. This year we'll get it done."

The Redskins have until July 15 to ink a long-term deal with Cousins or he plays 2017 on the franchise tag. That scenario virtually assures Cousins will enter free agency in 2018 and sign elsewhere. If Washington plays out the contract like a classic procrastinator, other complications crop up. The Redskins won't know how much their quarterback will count for on their financial ledger, a true handicap as they pursue other free agents.

If they wait and realize a long-term deal won't happen, then perhaps a trade is the best option. However, the two best windows -- start of free agency (March 7) and the NFL Draft (April 27-29) -- will be over. 

Asked about if the team had an internal deadline, Allen noted Cousins would be prepared "whether it's a 12-year or a 1-year contract," before concluding, "The sooner the better."

http://www.scout.com/nfl/redskins/story/1759394-one-on-one-allen-talks-mccloughan-cousins

 

Typical alarmist bull****. They will have a very, very good idea how much he costs. It starts with $24.5M. TI will be within a few $M. In terms of the ca that's nothing.

 

I find it interesting they talk about the Redskins doing this as a problem and a mistake but when Denver and other teams do it, it's just business and they will figure it out. What's even more amazing is that the lines back and forth between Von Miller and Denver were down right hateful. Von threatening to sit out, Denver saying they are not paying him what he wants. They both made it look like there was no way a deal would get done. Yet they did get one done.

 

In this case both sides are saying they feel good about getting a deal done yet they are dysfunctional and making a mistake and don't know what they are doing. Total hypocrisy.

[elkabong82]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Everything I've heard is that Kirk is ~top 10-15.  From everywhere.  (Which isn't terrible.) But he's not (according to most folks that I've heard):

Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Rothlisburger, Ryan, Stafford, Carr, Newton, Wilson, Luck. That's 11 that I just named off.  You could maybe argue a few of those guys based on preference, but he's not top 5, he's not elite.  He's somewhere in the top half of the league. 

 

The question is, do you pay a guy who's 10-15 like he's top 5, because he worked himself into that circumstance?  It's a legitimate question. 

 

They really sealed the deal when they tagged him last year, because that made him a top 5 paid QB, when he wasn't a top 5 QB.  That automatically set the bargaining table. But that's yesterday's news. 

 

Let's talk about how Allen is screwing SM out of power!

 

Not a single QB you listed ahead of Cousins was top 5/elite in their first 2 seasons as starter, not even Brady. Some of the QBs you listed it could be argued Cousins is better, but that's another debate.

 

You pay a 10-15 QB, who is much close to 10 than 15, as a top 5 QB when he has 2 years as a starter only and overall good results, when he is the best QB available, when you believe he will continue to improve and could become top 5, and when for 2 seasons he has carried your team to winning records, brought a division title, and done so with bottom tier defense and run game/carried the rest of the team.

[DM72]

36 minutes ago, mistertim said:

No. You know perfectly well what I meant as far as NFL personnel commenting on players anonymously. 

 

Stephen "A source familiar with the situation" Smith has become good at that though. 

 

Just this week, he claimed to have spoken to 4 players that says "Cousins pad his stats."

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 minutes ago, elkabong82 said:

 

Not a single QB you listed ahead of Cousins was top 5/elite in their first 2 seasons as starter, not even Brady. Some of the QBs you listed it could be argued Cousins is better, but that's another debate.

 

You pay a 10-15 QB, who is much close to 10 than 15, as a top 5 QB when he has 2 years as a starter only and overall good results, when he is the best QB available, when you believe he will continue to improve and could become top 5, and when for 2 seasons he has carried your team to winning records, brought a division title, and done so with bottom tier defense and run game/carried the rest of the team.

And none of the QBs I listed were compensated as top 5/elite after 2 years of starting.  

 

Its a unique situation because cousins sat for 3 years, and played his first year as a starter on the final year of his rookie contract.  And performed very well.  

 

Thats extremely unique.

 

as I said, I can see both sides.  One says "it's market, go pay him" the other says "but he's just not worth a top 5 contract even if he's best available."

 

id pay him.  But I see both sides.

 

 

[ncr2h]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And none of the QBs I listed were compensated as top 5/elite after 2 years of starting.  

 

Its a unique situation because cousins sat for 3 years, and played his first year as a starter on the final year of his rookie contract.  And performed very well.  

 

Thats extremely unique.

 

as I said, I can see both sides.  One says "it's market, go pay him" the other says "but he's just not worth a top 5 contract even if he's best available."

 

id pay him.  But I see both sides.

 

 

Rodgers in 2008 was in a similar situation as Cousins in 2015.  GB made him the 4th highest-paid QB in the league despite having started only 8 games.  He proceeded to reward them by going 2-6 in the following 8 games.  I'm sure they were feeling jittery about that decision.

 

But they made the right decision.

 

Our FO had 20+ games of Cousins putting in a body of work that was more or less on par with Rodgers' first 8 games, including a 10 game run that was far better than Rodgers' first 8.  They didn't sign him, and here we are.

 

http://blogs.nfl.com/2008/11/04/rodgers-among-highest-paid-quarterbacks/

[Veryoldschool]

53 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

We're hoping for a long-term deal with him," Allen said. That's what we're going to work towards. Last year we tried. We didn't get that done. This year we'll get it done."

The Redskins have until July 15 to ink a long-term deal with Cousins or he plays 2017 on the franchise tag. That scenario virtually assures Cousins will enter free agency in 2018 and sign elsewhere. If Washington plays out the contract like a classic procrastinator, other complications crop up. The Redskins won't know how much their quarterback will count for on their financial ledger, a true handicap as they pursue other free agents.

If they wait and realize a long-term deal won't happen, then perhaps a trade is the best option. However, the two best windows -- start of free agency (March 7) and the NFL Draft (April 27-29) -- will be over. 

Asked about if the team had an internal deadline, Allen noted Cousins would be prepared "whether it's a 12-year or a 1-year contract," before concluding, "The sooner the better."

http://www.scout.com/nfl/redskins/story/1759394-one-on-one-allen-talks-mccloughan-cousins

 

I am very encouraged by McCartney's statement that he is meeting with the Skin's cap guy this coming week, I forget his name.  I optimistically infer from McCartney publicly mentioning this pending meeting is that McCartney and Allen have agreed to the amount, length and guarantee, all the big questions.  Now McCartney and Allen's subordinate finishing the short strokes, working out the timing of the payments in a cap friendly way as possible.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I am very encouraged by McCartney's statement that he is meeting with the Skin's cap guy this coming week, I forget his name.  I optimistically infer from McCartney publicly mentioning this pending meeting is that McCartney and Allen have agreed to the amount, length and guarantee, all the big questions.  Now McCartney and Allen's subordinate finishing the short strokes, working out the timing of the payments in a cap friendly way as possible.

 

I first stated listening to the Sirrius interview that the interview was this week but saw that Tandler tweeted upon hearing the same interview that its next week so I figured he heard right versus me.  But it looks like I heard it right.  They met yesterday and I heard (it escapes me at the moment where) someone mention they are meeting again this weekend.