The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Veryoldschool]

2 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

 

Yeah, you're barking up the wrong tree. CL wasn't an Griffin guy at all. He and I had many a argument about that so I can certainly attest to it. 

 

It's odd honestly, you've basically been allowed to run around being a smartass to everyone who has a different view point but whatever. 

 

I think you are right.  I've allowed myself to be too sharp responding to Kirk detractors and I am going to curb myself going forward.  Posts that compare our 28 year old, 2nd year starter, Pro Bowl QB to guys who've played 10 years or post that suggest that Kirk Cousins underlying cause of the Skin's red zone issues irritate me are silly, but I am going to try not to react so sharply in the future.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

4 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

What's the power, though?

 

Jesus Christ.

 

Kirk Cousins - who we can all agree is probably no better than the 8th or 9th best Quarterback in the league - has the power to tell the Skins "Make me the highest paid player in NFL history right now or one year from now, I will become the highest paid player in NFL history for another team."

 

By luck, circumstance, and incompetence, Cousins knows that he is going to be the highest paid player ever either now or next year. A 29 year old Cousins on the open market in this version of the NFL with an ever-escalating salary cap will be in a position to demand payment in gold bars and virgins if he was so inclined

 

Essentially, the power he has is the power to say no to an extremely generous contract, because it's simply not enough.

 

A year ago, a reasonable contract would have locked him up for four or five years. Now, it will take a history making contract to do that. And if he's annoyed, that could actually not be enough. He may want a history making contact from another team and the Skins would have no choice but to facilitate that.

 

Seriously, if Cousins came out today and said, "I want to be traded to San Francisco," the Skins would unquestionably have to do that because it's either trade him for a second round pick today or lose him for nothing aside from a third round compensatory pick in 2019.

[TSO]

14 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

 

It's odd honestly, you've basically been allowed to run around being a smartass to everyone who has a different view point but whatever. 

 

No, he hasn't.

 

He's been reprimanded numerous times about his general tone. In this case, he assumed an incorrect position about the poster he responded to but didn't violate any rules. 

 

Nothing odd about it. 

[Tay]

5 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

I honestly don't think Manning ever had this much power in a contract negotiation, because the franchise tag in his case would have actually been LESS than his true value. That's one of the key factors here.

 

Manning in his prime at the average of the top five salaries at his position would have actually been a bargain for the team in some respects while leaving Manning with no security. The Skins screwed the pooch last year because the franchise tag was probably around TWICE what Cousins would have been worth on the open market at that point. This year, it's closer to reality, but is still probably above market value. They've basically given Cousins 4 years worth of money in two years, leaving him in a position to hold them over a barrel for a record-setting deal.

 

 

 

This is false. If Osweiler got $18 per year on the open market, Cousins would have gotten close to $20 per. They decided to wait a year to be sure they wanted to pay Kirk franchise money. That decision will probable cost them another 1% of the cap in a long term deal. The risk was that now Kirk knows he will get franchise money where ever a team needs a QB. If he doesn't want to be in DC, he can wait 1 year and leave. His risk level of waiting at this point is near non existent.

[Taylor703]

3 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

No, he hasn't.

 

He's been reprimanded numerous times about his general tone. In this case, he assumed an incorrect position about the poster he responded to but didn't violate any rules. 

 

Nothing odd about it. 

 

No worries. He was very respectful in his follow up which I appreciated. He's an intelligent guy who without the smart remarks adds a lot to the board. 

[TheGreek1973]

5 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Jesus Christ.

 

Kirk Cousins - who we can all agree is probably no better than the 8th or 9th best Quarterback in the league - has the power to tell the Skins "Make me the highest paid player in NFL history right now or one year from now, I will become the highest paid player in NFL history for another team."

 

By luck, circumstance, and incompetence, Cousins knows that he is going to be the highest paid player ever either now or next year. A 29 year old Cousins on the open market in this version of the NFL with an ever-escalating salary cap will be in a position to demand payment in gold bars and virgins if he was so inclined

 

Essentially, the power he has is the power to say no to an extremely generous contract, because it's simply not enough.

 

A year ago, a reasonable contract would have locked him up for four or five years. Now, it will take a history making contract to do that. And if he's annoyed, that could actually not be enough. He may want a history making contact from another team and the Skins would have no choice but to facilitate that.

 

Seriously, if Cousins came out today and said, "I want to be traded to San Francisco," the Skins would unquestionably have to do that because it's either trade him for a second round pick today or lose him for nothing aside from a third round compensatory pick in 2019.

That is a great post, lets not forget who gave him that power.  The Redskins did when they offered a ridiculous LTC last year that would have paid him just 4 million more in guaranteed money from what last year's tag was.

[PortisBetts]

It seems like the Redskins are serious about locking Kirk up to a LTD. This is the right move. Continuity is the key to success, especially when the continuity has shown previous success.

 

I'm telling you, Kirk with Doctson, Crowder, and Reed, hopefully a new RB and more of a dedication to the run game, can really be fun to watch.

 

It seems like every day, the Redskins actions are the opposite of what the media is saying. I like it. I hate our media. It really makes it hard to enjoy this team sometimes.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

10 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Jesus Christ.

 

Kirk Cousins - who we can all agree is probably no better than the 8th or 9th best Quarterback in the league - has the power to tell the Skins "Make me the highest paid player in NFL history right now or one year from now, I will become the highest paid player in NFL history for another team."

 

Every player has that power....because that's just the power to demand. And even if you want to define it as actual power, there have been many, many players have had that power over the years, just as many, many will have that power in the years to come. So if you want to use that definition of "power" the only accurate statement would be that Cousins is the most powerful player THIS YEAR...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 minutes ago, Tay said:

This is false. If Osweiler got $18 per year on the open market, Cousins would have gotten close to $20 per. They decided to wait a year to be sure they wanted to pay Kirk franchise money. That decision will probable cost them another 1% of the cap in a long term deal. The risk was that now Kirk knows he will get franchise money where ever a team needs a QB. If he doesn't want to be in DC, he can wait 1 year and leave. His risk level of waiting at this point is near non existent.

 

We can disagree on the dollar figures, but we agree on the fact that Cousins is in a position where he has no incentive to sign a contract right now, which is almost never the case in the NFL.

Just now, Califan007 said:

 

Every player has that power....because that's just the power to demand. And even if you want to define it as actual power, there have been many, many players have had that power over the years, just as many, many will have that power in the years to come. So if you want to use that definition of "power" the only accurate statement would be that Cousins is the most powerful player THIS YEAR...

 

Landry Jones and Tyrod Taylor have that power? I guess in a theoretical sense they do, but they would have been laughed at.

 

Kirk knows he is getting those dollars here or somewhere else, and the Skins have no leverage to change his mind other than "loyalty" which probably went out the window when they bet against him last year.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

17 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

I honestly don't think Manning ever had this much power in a contract negotiation, because the franchise tag in his case would have actually been LESS than his true value. That's one of the key factors here.

 

 

I didn't say more power in contract negotiations...I said more power. Period.

 

Who do you think had more power in terms of free agents signed, players drafted, coaches hired, coaches fired, game plans devised, plays called, etc...Manning or Cousins? Or do you feel they both had the exact same level of power in these areas? Which QB do you feel had more influence on prospective free agents wanting to sign with their team, Manning or Cousins?

 

If "power" is only being defined by how much money you can realistically get in contract negotiations, then Cooley and Sheehan need to find a much better term to use.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

4 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I didn't say more power in contract negotiations...I said more power. Period.

 

Who do you think had more power in terms of free agents signed, players drafted, coaches hired, coaches fired, game plans devised, plays called, etc...Manning or Cousins? Or do you feel they both had the exact same level of power in these areas? Which QB do you feel had more influence on prospective free agents wanting to sign with their team, Manning or Cousins?

 

If "power" is only being defined by how much money you can realistically get in contract negotiations, then Cooley and Sheehan need to find a much better term to use.

 

Seriously? This is how thin you are slicing this particular hair?

 

Fine. Kirk is a schmuck.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

24 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Landry Jones and Tyrod Taylor have that power? I guess in a theoretical sense they do, but they would have been laughed at.

 

Kirk knows he is getting those dollars here or somewhere else, and the Skins have no leverage to change his mind other than "loyalty" which probably went out the window when they bet against him last year.

 

But again, this is not some unprecedented level of power never seen before in the NFL. Not to mention the Skins still have the power to say "nope" to a 3rd franchise tag.

 

If there is a "most powerful player in the history of the nfl", in terms of salaries anyway, I would say that the player who ended up having the most "power" in terms of the most influential contract negotiations could arguably be Sam Bradford. For starters he could hold his team over a barrel and hold out, and then enter the draft again the following year (unless that wasn't available back then). But in addition, the rookie contract he and his agent were able to wrangle from the Rams directly lead to the change in the CBA that now includes a rookie cap. That effected every single player who entered the NFL and directly effected negotiating practices between agents and teams.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Seriously? This is how thin you are slicing this particular hair?

 

Fine. Kirk is a schmuck.

 

I would say defining "power" as salary-only is some seriously thin-slicing.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I agree that for several years, Bradford was the most powerful player in the league in terms of how contracts were negotiated, because he had the last mega-rookie quarterback contract.

 

It's very similar to Kevin Garnett. Garnett essentially broke the NBA's contract model and forced them through the myriad steps that got them to this year's CBA.

 

The only thing with Bradford is that there was an expiration date there.

 

Cousins not only has the power to make himself richer than Davy Crockett, he can set a new baseline for QBs for the rest of time. If I'm an NFL agent, I do not want him signing again with the Skins in a million years. I want him on the open market so the next time I'm negotiating - say - Aaron Rodgers deal, I can say I need Cousins' deal plus 20 percent as a starting point.

 

In all honesty, at this moment, Cousins' agent is far more important to the future of the NFL than Roger Goodell is. I don't know who that dude is or what sway he has over Kirk, but if he pitches this right, he can change the way the league does business forever.

 

And it's all because the Redskins were cheap a year ago.

 

[Birdlives]

35 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

In this moment, he is the most powerful player in NFL history.

 

He didn't do that through any master plan. It happened through complete incompetence on the side of the Skins. (And the position he plays. A running back or guard is never going to be able to do this).

 

Basically, the Skins have repeatedly bet against their starting quarterback. And that has led to a circumstance where Cousins is in a position to make Andrew Luck look like a pauper.

 

If I'm Cousins, I bet on myself once and made $50 million. That's in the bank. All I have to do is bet on myself one more time, and I can name my team and my price for the rest of my career.

 

 

 

And if I'm the Redskins, I go super modest in free agency this year just like I did last year, carry over enough space to tag you again next year, and either field offers from other teams, or let you watch us play the 2018 season out of sheer spite. Maybe I let you play depending on how I feel.

 

Sure, you walk in 2019 with 79mil, but my team prints money so I don't care. I'll even get you an ice cream cake for your 31st birthday. The notion that people think the Redskins won't possibly tag Cousins again next year is funny to me. Just because it isn't smart doesn't mean they won't do it. They did the same thing last year. They let RGIII watch football from the sidelines for 15mil the year before. I wouldn't put anything past Snyder and Allen.

[SkinssRvA]

33 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

What's the power, though?

Kirk has guaranteed he will not be tagged again (thus making his next deal a LTD).  He has roughly around 15 potential suitors, and around 5 who would be willing to give him the biggest contract in football history (probably).  He's content playing this season under the tag because that is ~45 mil in guaranteed money knowing that his next contract will also have anywhere from 60-90 mil guaranteed.  He doesn't have to budge on contract talks with the redskins because (barring career ending injury) he is set to put pen to paper somewhere in the nfl next offseason for the largest contract in history.  He can set the asking price with the one team allowed to negotiate with him, which he is doing, at reportedly 24 mil per year.  He'd be a pro-bowler entering his prime hitting the free market, something that we don't see from a qb in the nfl.  That's massive power.    

 

IMO skins mishandled this on a number of fronts.  Last offseason they could have got a deal done, hell even during the 2015 season there was talk about long-term signing.  Skins also did not allow kirk to be a non-exclusive franchise tag player, which would have set the market for him.  There would be no speculation we'd know his worth on the free market.  And lastly, all the low-balling of contracts has more than likely made kirk a bit angry with this franchise, setting the floor for a contract higher than it should be.  

[onedrop]

1 hour ago, Taylor703 said:

 

How was I refuted? He threw for a bunch of yards because all we did was throw the ball. He also had the lowest TD passes produced for someone throwing for that many yards. So yes, I do believe this fanbase overrates him considerably. I also said he was a good player and yet you still got upset over it which proves my point about just how ridiculous this fanbase is over Kirk. 

you refuted yourself by agreeing that he would have broken the same records for teams whose fanbases werent "overrating" him. now you are using a fallacy, that i was upset, as evidence to support an argument regarding an entire fanbase that i personally wasnt having. i never indicated where i stood on Kirk, just how silly your post was. so, in short, consider yourself refuted.....again.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

4 minutes ago, Birdlives said:

 

 

And if I'm the Redskins, I go super modest in free agency this year just like I did last year, carry over enough space to tag you again next year, and either field offers from other teams, or let you watch us play the 2018 season out of sheer spite. Maybe I let you play depending on how I feel.

 

Sure, you walk in 2019 with 79mil, but my team prints money so I don't care. I'll even get you an ice cream cake for your 31st birthday. The notion that people think the Redskins won't possibly tag Cousins again next year is funny to me. Just because it isn't smart doesn't mean they won't do it. They did the same thing last year. They let RGIII watch football from the sidelines for 15mil the year before. I wouldn't put anything past Snyder and Allen.

 

 

1. If Cousins gets tagged next year, he's in the exact same position he is now except with $85 million in the bank. He would still be a year away from entering free agency in his prime. If I'm his agent, I welcome that because instead of $100 million over three years, I'm getting $150 million over 4 years.

 

2. The Redskins have no leverage to trade Cousins until he signs a long-term deal.

[Taylor703]

6 minutes ago, onedrop said:

you refuted yourself by agreeing that he would have broken the same records for teams whose fanbases werent "overrating" him. now you are using a fallacy, that i was upset, as evidence to support an argument regarding an entire fanbase that i personally wasnt having. i never indicated where i stood on Kirk, just how silly your post was. so, in short, consider yourself refuted.....again.

 

Okay dude. You've now been wrong twice. I'll just end this here because there's no point in going around and around. 

[onedrop]

2 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

 

Okay dude. You've now been wrong twice. I'll just end this here because there's no point in going around and around. 

thats what people normally say when they have no ammunition left for the debate. if you are content leaving things with the equivalent of "i know you are but what am i" and running away i am just as happy to let you go

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

5 minutes ago, onedrop said:

thats what people normally say when they have no ammunition left for the debate. if you are content leaving things with the equivalent of "i know you are but what am i" and running away i am just as happy to let you go

 

I don't think this the dumbest argument in the history of this board, but it is the most pointless. Congratulations to you both.

[onedrop]

Just now, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

I don't think this the dumbest argument in the history of this board, but it is the most pointless. Congratulations to you both.

which makes you commenting on it what exactly? at least he chose a side you simply make snide remarks from the sideline? you are a lightweight.

[Taylor703]

10 minutes ago, onedrop said:

thats what people normally say when they have no ammunition left for the debate. if you are content leaving things with the equivalent of "i know you are but what am i" and running away i am just as happy to let you go

I already answered your first response which you just chose to ignore so I saw no point in continuing with this and clogging up the thread with it. 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

Cooley and Sheehan keep saying Cousins has "more power than any player in the history of the NFL"...

 

What's the power that Cousins has that no other player has ever had?

 

Money buys you power.

[clskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Your man RGIII will be on a roster somewhere in the NFL or CFL someplace in the league so be of good cheer.

 

Obviously, your animus towards Cousins robs you of your sense of perspective.  If Griffin had been able to run a real NFL offense and been 75% as productive as Kirk you'd be signing his praises.  Unfortunately your guy has been a total bust and your shattered hope has soured into a blind disdain for Cousins.  Thankfully for the rest of us and two coaching regimes believed in his talent and developed it to the extent they where allowed to during his first three years before insisting to the ownership that Kirk is the future.  Now management agrees and they are working on the details of his franchise QB contract.  Get over it.

 

I dont know how Griffin got pulled into this. But my stance on the trade was clear from the beginning. you can go back and look if you like. I hated then and I hate it even more now. I ate major crow in 2012 for it. So Griffin isnt "my man" as you say. Whatever.

 

And I dont know what Griffin has to do with Kirks mistakes and struggling in the redzone? basically I have no idea what your talking about.

[mistertim]

Just now, clskinsfan said:

 

I dont know how Griffin got pulled into this. But my stance on the trade was clear from the beginning. you can go back and look if you like. I hated then and I hate it even more now. I ate major crow in 2012 for it. So Griffin isnt "my man" as you say. Whatever.

 

Don't mind him. He always brings up Griffin when someone is less than effusive in their praise of Kirk.