The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[dckey]

1 hour ago, Bang said:

 

What he gets paid is only what the market dictates due to when he's up for contract and who else is out there. There is no one. He is the top Qb in free agency (and they are hardly EVER in free agency.). he will get Market value, and for QBs market value is almost always higher than the last top guy.

 

~Bang

I am in agreement with you until you get here!!!  This is where I have the problem.  How many QB's have been in this position, that has never won a playoff game and become the highest paid QB?  From my understanding we will franchise him and if another team is willing to make him the highest paid qb for his body of work then i'm ok with him walking.  I like Kirk but those types of contracts are for players that will elevate a poor team around him because of how much he takes from the cap, elite top 3 type talent, and even then it is hard to build a team like that ie saints, colts, ravens, GB has possibly one of the best to ever play and barely made the playoffs and are winning because of him.  I just don't view Kirk that way, he's top 7 talent to me!!!  Where should the line be drawn I guess is where I am at with the situation.  To me I'm not going above 23mil per year 60 guaranteed, that's still top 5 money.  

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Bang said:

 

But does Aaron Rodgers count? Prior to Luck, Rodgers was the highest paid QB.

Since he signed his deal, he's 33-15.

(and he's playing in the NFC championship game for the second time in three years on Sunday.)

the Packers need defense. Their's was awful this year.

Should Rodgers be sacrificed to make room for all the free agents they need?

 

~Bang

 

 

 

It's my thought, too.  Yeah the Redskins have many needs but we've been this though movie so many times that I am surprised its this much of a debate.  Let take the Gibbs 2 era, they had good talent on the O line, good talent on defense, one of the best RBs in the league -- but so what?  They didn't have a QB so they didn't compete with the big boys.  Whether Kirk is an elite QB or not that remains to be seen.  But with Kirk, we are in just about every game.  I recall very well the many years of blow outs and having little chance to compete with the big teams.  Now, we got a shot.  Upgrade the defense, and this team IMO can easily go 11-5.

 

If we go back to the days of journeyman QBs and taking fliers and hope to get lucky in the draft -- while chasing Trent Green and Brad Johnson out the door.   I think we return to the dark days of bad karma. The Rams got a boat load of picks from us in the RG3 trade -- and gosh their defense is loaded, but they got no QB, and they are a bad team.  It would give me no joy watching Kyle winning a Superbowl with Kirk while we are saying yeah maybe we went 8-8 but at least our roster is more balanced.

 

I remember them all well: John Friez, Shane Matthews, Mark Brunell, Tony Banks, Gus, Tim Hasselbeck.  We've traded for McNabb.  Heck they even took 4 guys in the first round:  Heath Shuler, Patrick Ramsey, Jason Campbell, RG3 and failed!     So for me to think you know what lets try that again, its not that hard, right to find that guy?    My thought is its like breaking up with a crazy girlfriend 4 times and you think you are over that and climbed past it.  You are dating someone new who is cool -- but you are wondering, hey maybe I can find someone better, lets break up and heck if I don't find that better person then worse case I'll hook up again with my crazy-ex.

 

I think if my memory wasn't good and didn't live through the QB charade here that's been going on for decades now, I'd feel differently.  But I recall those days like it was yesterday when I was jealous of my Giant and Cowboys fan friends knowing that they always had a shot to win because they had a QB -- whereas with the Redskins we owned for the most part the last spot in the NFC East because for us to win we needed that rare game when our mediocre QB got hot -- which didn't happen all that often.

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, dckey said:

I am in agreement with you until you get here!!!  This is where I have the problem.  How many QB's have been in this position, that has never won a playoff game and become the highest paid QB?  From my understanding we will franchise him and if another team is willing to make him the highest paid qb for his body of work then i'm ok with him walking.  I like Kirk but those types of contracts are for players that will elevate a poor team around him because of how much he takes from the cap, elite top 3 type talent, and even then it is hard to build a team like that ie saints, colts, ravens, GB has possibly one of the best to ever play and barely made the playoffs and are winning because of him.  I just don't view Kirk that way, he's top 7 talent to me!!!  Where should the line be drawn I guess is where I am at with the situation.  To me I'm not going above 23mil per year 60 guaranteed, that's still top 5 money.  

 

It's really a screwy situation. Every one of the current top 5 paid QBs in the NFL have either won a SB or gone deep into the playoffs. Kirk hasn't ever even won a playoff game but he's likely going to want to be the highest paid QB in the league. It puts us in a crappy situation because if the market for him is truly that high it would be a big time gamble...for us but especially for another team as they'd have to give up not only a crap ton of money for him but a couple of high round draft picks as well. That's why I think other teams will be somewhat gun shy about giving all of that up for a guy who, as far as playoffs, etc, is completely unproven and has shown issues with playing poorly in some very important games. 

[mistertim]

18 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The D wasn't just below average. It was downright unprofessionally bad. How many 3rd and 10s did they allow? How many times were receivers wide open right down the middle of the field? It was atrocious. Sure you can say the D "contributed" to wins, but it was like 90% offense 10% defense if you want to put it in a ratio.

 

3rd down was an absolute killer for our defense and they were atrocious there. Other than that, it's important to remember that in every other category there were plenty of teams worse than us....pass yards per game, points per game, rush yards per game etc. I am NOT excusing the defense as a whole...they were simply not good in general and were historically bad on 3rd and long. But it isn't like they were bottom of the league at everything. In points allowed per game IIRC we were relatively close to middle of the pack. So I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say the wins were 90% on the offense and 10% on the defense, though the offense generally did their job FAR better than the defense (except for scoring TDs, unfortunately).

[Stefanskins]

3 hours ago, Bang said:

 

uhhh..

 

~Dang

1

I see what you did there... : )

[PartyPosse]

On 1/21/2017 at 8:23 AM, skins island connection said:

The Giants game was more psychological, being the talk of Giant players resting or playing little, and that just didn't happen. that was 100% on coaching, not getting the team prepared for a battle and letting them believe it would be a cakewalk game.

If you are a professional football player and you aren't able to mentally prepare yourself for a win-and-in game against a rival, then you don't deserve to make your living as an NFL player. This isn't just about Kirk, this is about any player.

[Stefanskins]

57 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

If you are a professional football player and you aren't able to mentally prepare yourself for a win-and-in game against a rival, then you don't deserve to make your living as an NFL player.

 

 

now PP...at the most only one QB a year doesn't lose a "win n ur in" scenerio...be it playoffs...getting to the championship round...winning the championship game...getting to the super bowl...winning the super bowl...all are win and you're in scenarios...and btw didn't he win the eagles game last year in a win and you're in?...but, I totally understand your frustration and disappointment though...HTTR!!! 

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

If you are a professional football player and you aren't able to mentally prepare yourself for a win-and-in game against a rival, then you don't deserve to make your living as an NFL player.

 

Only one player needs to prepare in such kind of game?

Thought that was a team game, and from what I saw, there were lots of players that didn't feel involved during this game. And I'll hardly put Cousins as the one that wasn't prepared. Our line looked like crap in the beginning of the game (thought 4/5 of them were nursing injuries and it showed).

Do you really believe the Patriots are waiting for Brady to win the game for them?

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

 

Only one player needs to prepare in such kind of game?

Thought that was a team game, and from what I saw, there were lots of players that didn't feel involved during this game. And I'll hardly put Cousins as the one that wasn't prepared. Our line looked like crap in the beginning of the game (thought 4/5 of them were nursing injuries and it showed).

Do you really believe the Patriots are waiting for Brady to win the game for them?

 

The player who is the central focus of the offense and who is angling for a record setting contract certainly should. Though to be honest I don't even necessarily see it as a preparation thing. Kirk just looked nervous and off his game from the very beginning and it stayed that way. Was the same thing with the Carolina game as well as the Packers playoff game last season. When he seems nervous and a defense gets in his head early it seems he has a very hard time getting it together. He loses his pocket presence, his mechanics go south (lots of balls sailing on him, etc), his accuracy is off, and he makes some really bad decisions. Now, that happens to pretty much any QB at some point, but the best QBs will adjust and get over it and get themselves back on track more often than not. That doesn't seem to be the case here. Hopefully that will improve if we sign him long term.

[wit33]

13 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

The D wasn't just below average. It was downright unprofessionally bad. How many 3rd and 10s did they allow? How many times were receivers wide open right down the middle of the field? It was atrocious. Sure you can say the D "contributed" to wins, but it was like 90% offense 10% defense if you want to put it in a ratio.

 

It was below average... this historically bad stuff is nonsense and I believe is self serving for many who don't want to put any blame on the offense or more appropriately, Kirk Cousins. I don't put it all on Cousins, he needs a stronger run game. 

 

No, the defense didn't dominate in any games for the most part, but they did just enough to allow the offense to have a chance to win games. Going into the year many realist hoped the D would be average and they fell 15 points short of being top 15 in points allowed. I am most definitely cherry picking a stat, but for me, this is by far the #1 stat.

 

It's most frustrating for me to see many give the offense a complete pass for underachieving this year and put all the blame on the defense. Especially if you take the time and look at each game individually and see the defense managed to play a big part in the 6-1-1 stretch and somehow never completely collapsed in games. 

 

My my whole argument is based on the premise of my expectations of the offense and defense going into the year. I was not shocked to see the defense have struggles, but was surprised the offense never seemed to click or find some sort of identity.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

It was below average... this historically bad stuff is nonsense and I believe is self serving for many who don't want to put any blame on the offense or more appropriately, Kirk Cousins. I don't put it all on Cousins, he needs a stronger run game.

That's actually factually incorrect.  It was historically bad on 3rd and long, I think the worst percentage ever, if not in the last several decades.  Their 3rd down percentage was horrific.  It was not below average.  It was absolutely terrible.

 

There were about 2-3 games in the middle of the season where it was passable.  But then they reverted to being awful.

 

You want to put some blame on the offense for not scoring enough in the red zone.  Fine.  I'm with you.

 

Counter-point: If the defense was even middle-of-the-road, especially on 3rd down, the offense would have had 2-3 more drives a game.  That's 32-48 more drives over the season.  And if you figure their current scoring rate, that would have been a lot more points, even if they maintained the same exact red-zone efficiency percentage.  It probably brings their average offensive ppg up 3-4 points.

 

Also, when you have a defense that's so completely and totally pathetic, it puts SO much more pressure on the entire offense to be PERFECT at all times.  And THAT leads to pressing, and leads to stupid mistakes.

 

The offense faded down the stretch.  Especially after the Dallas game.  They also lost Jordan Reed, who makes a lot of the offense go.  But there's no question the offense bears responsibility. 

 

But to try and make out the defense was just below average, if you believe that then I have some ocean front property in Nebraska I'd love to sell you.  Great price. 

[Stefanskins]

35 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

That's actually factually incorrect.  It was historically bad on 3rd and long, I think the worst percentage ever, if not in the last several decades.  Their 3rd down percentage was horrific.  It was not below average.  It was absolutely terrible.

 

 

 

 

 

if it wasn't.....God help the DC that was worse...

Quote

Also, when you have a defense that's so completely and totally pathetic, it puts SO much more pressure on the entire offense to be PERFECT at all times.  And THAT leads to pressing, and leads to stupid mistakes.

 

 

 

1

and this should also be a check in the "sign Kirk"...the MF was playing on the ultimate (we've never seen before) season long/himself gamble...he went all in on himself...he coulda taken a 15-18 million dollar contract (if that was even offered...which I don't think it was)..did he hit the jackpot? ($20 mil ka-plunk is a perty good jackpot)...but no, he didn't win the SB...however he did win...and he did break more records, threw for more yards...almost same %, sack rate...same ballfield in total TD's/ints, wins...let's quit deluding ourselves...we all lose if Kirk walks...period...HTTR!!!

[CjSuAvE22]

This fan base has no idea what good quarterback play is and I don't blame them it's been 25+ years since we have had it two seasons in a row...sign and pay the man to a long term deal and be done with it.

[skins island connection]

20 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

If you are a professional football player and you aren't able to mentally prepare yourself for a win-and-in game against a rival, then you don't deserve to make your living as an NFL player.

 

 Yes, players have a responsibility to be mentally prepared, but the coaching staff does as well. They also have to ensure the players do not 'overlook' any opponents, and that was mentioned a lot after the game, it was a let down when they hit the field, got ****-slapped early, and didn't know how to respond.

 

 This whole discussion reminds me of a story I read about awhile back.

 This guy named Mark came across a 1968 GTO convertible that was in running condition, but needed some TLC and body work. The guy selling it didn't know what he had, and was asking $2500 for the car.  Mark looked at the car for awhile, then told the guy 'you'll never sell it for that price' and said i'll keep looking for a GTO in better condition for that amount of money.

 

 You will never, ever, ever, find a QB who will not go through a slump or learning curve in their career. Every great QB in the league has said it before, it is ALWAYS a learning process, you will never win every game, you will never make every throw, you will never see every blitz pkg coming at you,

 

 So when KC leaves, and another QB comes here, and he goes through a slump, get rid of the bum, he's garbage, he sucks, will be luring your fingertips to the keyboards, and maybe, just maybe, after 20-30 years, you will begin to realize that 'hey, maybe we should give this QB at least 4-5 years and see if he matures'.

 

But then again, maybe not...

 

[fordranger76]

While people note that the defense needed miracle games to win it I would offer that Cousins has had the same miracle applied to him. People have forgotten that he by himself blew the first game against Dallas. I remember that game vividly. He must have overthrown or flat out missed at least 4 touchdowns that game. I kid you not. Go back and watch it. The Bengals game can be laid at the feet of the special teams and defense. The Lions game a "Miracle" from Cousins kept us in it only to watch the defense die. But how about Arizona? Cousins was horrible. Dallas part 2? Horrible. Carolina? Horrible. NYG? Horrible. So while the defense should not get a pass for miracle wins where are all of the miracles from Cousins? He crapped the bed in a lot of crucial games this year no matter how you look at it and I feel he is getting way too much of a pass here. He chokes. Has a history. I hope we dont make a long term mistake here just because...who else is there?

[Warhead36]

Just now, fordranger76 said:

While people note that the defense needed miracle games to win it I would offer that Cousins has had the same miracle applied to him. People have forgotten that he by himself blew the first game against Dallas. I remember that game vividly. He must have overthrown or flat out missed at least 4 touchdowns that game. I kid you not. Go back and watch it. The Bengals game can be laid at the feet of the special teams and defense. The Lions game a "Miracle" from Cousins kept us in it only to watch the defense die. But how about Arizona? Cousins was horrible. Dallas part 2? Horrible. Carolina? Horrible. NYG? Horrible. So while the defense should not get a pass for miracle wins where are all of the miracles from Cousins? He crapped the bed in a lot of crucial games this year no matter how you look at it and I feel he is getting way too much of a pass here. He chokes. Has a history. I hope we dont make a long term mistake here just because...who else is there?

Wait, Cousins was terrible in Dallas part 2? Are you serious? He lit them up for like 400+ yards and 3 TDs. And his #s against Zona were pretty good, led us to 23 points against the #1 ranked D in their house.

 

And once again, no Cousins is not a choker. He actually has been quite clutch many times in his career including this past season. I think I'm gonna go back and find my post and put it in my sig so I can just copy/paste it really fast.

 

 

Wanna know something interesting? If the D held every opponent this year to 21 points exactly(I think that's the NFL average, somewhere around  there at least)we would have finished...11-5. And won the NFC East. And had a first round bye. In other words, we were an average NFL D away from possibly playing in a conference title game.

[GoDeep81]

It's too bad all this "to do" is over about 4 mil a year.. If Kirk wanted 20 mil a year and some term, it wouldn't even be a conversation.. It's that last 4+ mil per year that's sticking in everyones craw.. The more I think about it, I hope they just pay the kid and go on about their business.. It's all a gamble, no matter what they do, but winning 8 games a year with a decent chance to win 10-12 seems better to me than going back to 6-7 wins in the hopes of being a 12 win team in 3+ years..

 

We "are" the Redskins.. Whatever we do will probably turn out to be wrong, so we might as well just do it and get on with it.. lol

[fordranger76]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Wait, Cousins was terrible in Dallas part 2? Are you serious? He lit them up for like 400+ yards and 3 TDs. And his #s against Zona were pretty good, led us to 23 points against the #1 ranked D in their house.

 

And once again, no Cousins is not a choker. He actually has been quite clutch many times in his career including this past season. I think I'm gonna go back and find my post and put it in my sig so I can just copy/paste it really fast.

 

 

Wanna know something interesting? If the D held every opponent this year to 21 points exactly(I think that's the NFL average, somewhere around  there at least)we would have finished...11-5. And won the NFC East. And had a first round bye. In other words, we were an average NFL D away from possibly playing in a conference title game.

Yes he was horrible in that game at Dallas. Some of the catches that those receivers were making were flat out amazing. He was throwing behind and high that whole game. Part of the reason why Reed took that hit in the endzone that game. Again though with Arizona what happened in that game again? He has a QBR of 68.9 that game. If that is good I hate to see bad. People also forget against Baltimore we were a fumble pick 6 from losing that game by the hand of Cousins too. And as far as him choking he has just as many memorable wins as he does interceptions. Like Mr. Romo. Who is also known as a choker.

[ncr2h]

If you're argument is that he is a choke artist in must-win games, then you need to somehow account for the fact that in 2015, we went into halftime against Tampa Bay down 24-7 and staring a 2-5 record in the face, with the undefeated Patriots up next on our schedule (so essentially 2-6).

 

With the slimmest of margins for error, he went 7-3 down the stretch.  During that stretch of must win games, he led the NFL in completion percentage (72.4%), yards per attempt (8.7), adjusted net yards per attempt (8.7), and passer rating (119.1).  He was also #3 in TD%, #2 in INT%.  Statistically speaking, he was the best QB in the league from weeks 7-16.  He was the best QB in the league for the majority of the season, with pressure at an all time high.

 

When you assert the "choke artist" narrative, it needs to address this very glaring contradiction.  And I don't think it's fair that one "okay" game against Green Bay in the playoffs negates the 10 previous games (which admittedly were not all perfect, but when taken on the whole, is a body of work that rivals any of the best QBs).

 

He choked in December this year.  That doesn't make him a choke artist, unless 2015 and 2012 don't count.

[DC9]

An actual picture of me showing mistertim and all of the Cousins haters exactly what the 49ers are prepared to offer for him...

 

[Cliffmark1]

I was hoping we would announce this deal today too. 

[mistertim]

41 minutes ago, DC9 said:

An actual picture of me showing mistertim and all of the Cousins haters exactly what the 49ers are prepared to offer for him...

 

 

 

The stupid is strong in this post. Call me a "Cousins hater" all you want. The fact of the matter is that I have said many times that I want him back. The fact that I don't think he's worth a record breaking contract and I have concerns about some major areas of his game doesn't make me a hater. But that sorta feels like par for the course with you.

[DC9]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

The stupid is strong in this post. Call me a "Cousins hater" all you want. The fact of the matter is that I have said many times that I want him back. The fact that I don't think he's worth a record breaking contract and I have concerns about some major areas of his game doesn't make me a hater. But that sorta feels like par for the course with you.

 

It's in shambles isn't it, Timmy? 

 

That has to sting.  Wasn't it your last stand?

[mistertim]

Just now, DC9 said:

 

It's in shambles isn't it, Timmy? 

 

That has to sting.  Wasn't it your last stand?

 

Oh goodness. He's gotten to the "diminutive name" tactic. You fell all the way to that level pretty fast.

 

And the rest of your post doesn't even make any sense. What does it have to do with what I wrote?

[DC9]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

Oh goodness. He's gotten to the "diminutive name" tactic. You fell all the way to that level pretty fast.

 

And the rest of your post doesn't even make any sense. What does it have to do with what I wrote?

 

You've simply been nothing but contrarian about his abilities and the prospect of re-signing him in numerous threads.

 

I've laid out plenty of facts in here.  Things that have happened in numerous SIMILAR (not exact) situations around the league in the past several years.

 

You laid out your opinion.... which coupled with a buck fifty would get us a cup of coffee at the Wawa.

 

So as Smecker would say... we'll start the ass kissing with you.