The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Cliffmark1]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Looks like that was addressed in the post right before yours, that Cousins camp is not in a rush to kick things off. The Skins can't make him sign

Honestly I wish we would just give him a good deal because plays good ball. 

[mistertim]

36 minutes ago, dckey said:

Why are we worried about another team signing Cousins, if we tag him can't we match the offer?  And if he wont sign any offer just so we can't match it cause he doesn't want to be here than he can leave!!!!  Don't want nobody that doesn't want to be here.  

 

No way he hits the open market without being tagged. Seems like Kirk is basically just looking for as much money as possible. If that's the case, and the two sides are still relatively divergent on what they believe he's worth (as they were last year), they'll tag him and if he gets an offer from another team and SM and co. don't believe he's worth that much then we get draft picks...should be 2 1sts if a team truly believes he is worth possibly the largest salary in the NFL then they should have to give up a pretty penny in picks to get him. It's interesting hearing other FA guys talking about how they'd love to be back and then Kirk is basically just like "shrug". 

[dckey]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

No way he hits the open market without being tagged. Seems like Kirk is basically just looking for as much money as possible. If that's the case, and the two sides are still relatively divergent on what they believe he's worth (as they were last year), they'll tag him and if he gets an offer from another team and SM and co. don't believe he's worth that much then we get draft picks...should be 2 1sts if a team truly believes he is worth possibly the largest salary in the NFL then they should have to give up a pretty penny in picks to get him. It's interesting hearing other FA guys talking about how they'd love to be back and then Kirk is basically just like "shrug". 

That's what I thought, now I heard that there is a possibility that he can just play under the tag and not sign any offer given to him and just leave next year, because he would want to play for either McVay or Shanahan?

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, dckey said:

That's what I thought, now I heard that there is a possibility that he can just play under the tag and not sign any offer given to him and just leave next year, because he would want to play for either McVay or Shanahan?

 

Well, theoretically we could tag him in 2018 again but that would insanely cost prohibitive (I think it's something like 34 million). One thing I'm genuinely curious about is how much Kirk's seeming ambivalence to being back here affects how SM and company feel about him. He's a good QB but he ain't elite and IMO not worth a gargantuan contract that he seems to think he's worth. And the fact that he and his agent are apparently not even interested in working on the contract yet and may be holding out to see if he can talk to other teams doesn't make me feel especially good about him. Wonder if SM feels the same. I guess we'll see. 

[dckey]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Well, theoretically we could tag him in 2018 again but that would insanely cost prohibitive (I think it's something like 34 million). One thing I'm genuinely curious about is how much Kirk's seeming ambivalence to being back here affects how SM and company feel about him. He's a good QB but he ain't elite and IMO not worth a gargantuan contract that he seems to think he's worth. And the fact that he and his agent are apparently not even interested in working on the contract yet and may be holding out to see if he can talk to other teams doesn't make me feel especially good about him. Wonder if SM feels the same. I guess we'll see. 

That's exactly how I feel, I don't care how good you are if you don't want to be here than leave!!!!  My thing is if you just want money and not help build a championship than I don't want you either

[TSO]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

No way he hits the open market without being tagged. Seems like Kirk is basically just looking for as much money as possible. If that's the case, and the two sides are still relatively divergent on what they believe he's worth (as they were last year), they'll tag him and if he gets an offer from another team and SM and co. don't believe he's worth that much then we get draft picks...should be 2 1sts if a team truly believes he is worth possibly the largest salary in the NFL then they should have to give up a pretty penny in picks to get him. It's interesting hearing other FA guys talking about how they'd love to be back and then Kirk is basically just like "shrug". 

 

He can "shrug" because he's got ALL the leverage, unlike those other players.

 

I think it's cute how Garçon is now this burgundy and gold bleeding champion when just recently everyone hated on him for saying that he doesn't care what team he's on, it's whoever will pay him the most (he was being honest). 

 

As for Kirk, it's not his fault he's in this ridiculous position of strength. They wanted to see another year, they got it. This was the issue from day one with not signing him long term last year, though it was understandable that they wanted to make sure he wasn't a flash in the pan.

 

We all knew, and they did too, that it'd likely mean they would have to pay him by private islands and not dollars if he put up anywhere near the numbers he did in 2015. He did. 

 

They'll franchise tag him again and negotiate all the way up to the July 15th deadline. This was the talk coming out of Redskins Park during the season.

 

It's hard to believe, like you constantly suggest and intensely focus on to the exclusion of everything else, that the Panthers and Giants games moved the needle that much. 

 

Now, maybe the 49ers or another team are crazy enough to give up a crazy amount of picks to get him, but I just don't see it. They'd be idiots to give all that up AND have to pay him in private islands. 

[RabidFan]

Sounds like champ bailey all over again.  Get what you can if they want and are going to leave anyway. 

 

Seems like we got jay and kirk (or colt) next year then scott picks his coach and qb...that is if Danny backs him over the others for next 5yrs

[wit33]

38 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

 

As for Kirk, it's not his fault he's in this ridiculous position of strength. They wanted to see another year, they got it. This was the issue from day one with not signing him long term last year, though it was understandable that they wanted to make sure he wasn't a flash in the pan.

 

We all knew, and they did too, that it'd likely mean they would have to pay him by private islands and not dollars if he put up anywhere near the numbers he did in 2015. He did. 

 

Now, maybe the 49ers or another team are crazy enough to give up a crazy amount of picks to get him, but I just don't see it. They'd be idiots to give all that up AND have to pay him in private islands. 

 

Whats the difference of this and last year, in regards to the stance of Kirk and his agent? 

 

Reports suggest Kirk wanted 20+ million a year last year, now the difference is dollars to "private islands"? Kirk has taken the stance to play it tough in negotiations and media. It's a choice, not right or wrong, but can't blame some fans for being a little turned off by it. 

[LaxBuddy21]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Well, theoretically we could tag him in 2018 again but that would insanely cost prohibitive (I think it's something like 34 million). One thing I'm genuinely curious about is how much Kirk's seeming ambivalence to being back here affects how SM and company feel about him. He's a good QB but he ain't elite and IMO not worth a gargantuan contract that he seems to think he's worth. And the fact that he and his agent are apparently not even interested in working on the contract yet and may be holding out to see if he can talk to other teams doesn't make me feel especially good about him. Wonder if SM feels the same. I guess we'll see. 

It's not about what you think he is worth or what he thinks he is worth. It's what the market is willing to pay for him. I don't understand why that's such a hard concept to understand. If you want him, that's what he costs. It's like buying a car that is priced $20k over msrp. If you want that car, you pay for it. It's a hot commodity so it is over priced. Don't like the price? Settle for a lesser car but don't expect the dealer to drop the price just because you think It's too much and he likes you. 

[TSO]

55 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Whats the difference of this and last year, in regards to the stance of Kirk and his agent? 

 

Reports suggest Kirk wanted 20+ million a year last year, now the difference is dollars to "private islands"? Kirk has taken the stance to play it tough in negotiations and media. It's a choice, not right or wrong, but can't blame some fans for being a little turned off by it. 

 

The difference is one year of private islands versus many. They gave him one year to ensure he wasn't some flash in the pan QB, which was understandable, and now he's operating with even more leverage, which is understandable. 

 

I mean, I'm confused, what are you asking me?

 

Do you think he's got the exact same leverage as last year? What am I missing here? 

 

If you're saying it's not "right or wrong", then why would anyone be put off by it unless they're judging it as wrong? 

 

That's pretty contradictory. Maybe you meant it's both right AND wrong simultaneously so anyone could choose as they please and be assigned no blame, lol. 

 

Ugh, semantics. I know. 

 

Either way, I disagree. I think it's silly to be "put off" by contract negotiations. It's a business like any other, except we all get to watch. And this thing hasn't gotten anywhere NEAR as bad as some of the recent negotiations that are similar (players getting tagged, publicly feuding with their FOs, most of them ending up signing anyway and all is good, lol). 

[dckey]

So my question what is the number we wouldn't pay, but would rather have the picks instead?  I mean if someone said 21mil a year 60 guaranteed or 2 1st picks I would sign him, but if he got 25 mil a year 80 guaranteed give me the picks!!!  What would be the type of price that would have the redskins no matching if it came to that?

[wit33]

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Either way, I disagree. I think it's silly to be "put off" by contract negotiations. It's a business like any other, except we all get to watch. And this thing hasn't gotten anywhere NEAR as bad as some of the recent negotiations that are similar (players getting tagged, publicly feuding with their FOs, most of them ending up signing anyway and all is good, lol). 

 

I agree, semantics 100%. To be honest, I'm not passionate about the argument either way, just passing the time as I wait for next season. I like discussing preception based stuff and hearing others out. 

 

Its interesting how how many are on the side of the athlete wanting to maximize his money opportunity at all costs. I've never heard that be the case before in contract related stuff. Fortunate for him he's well spoken and fits the image.

 

Has as there ever been a time the Skins fan base has backed a guy who has openly discussed wanting his money? Genuinely curious. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cliffmark1]

2 hours ago, LaxBuddy21 said:

 It's like buying a car that is priced $20k over msrp. If you want that car, you pay for it. It's a hot commodity so it is over priced. 

Someone has been to ferrari of washington. 

[Stefanskins]

6 hours ago, dckey said:

 Don't want nobody that doesn't want to be here.  

1

tru dat

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Fortunate for him he's well spoken and fits the image.

 

 

 

 

noooo...fortunate for him, he threw for another franchise record and almost 5,000 yards...

/which was just luck...

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, dckey said:

So my question what is the number we wouldn't pay, but would rather have the picks instead?  I mean if someone said 21mil a year 60 guaranteed or 2 1st picks I would sign him, but if he got 25 mil a year 80 guaranteed give me the picks!!!  What would be the type of price that would have the redskins no matching if it came to that?

 

Please explain why this is too much. Please be specific. I am genuinely interested in hearing the rational.

[Est.1974]

8 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Looks like that was addressed in the post right before yours, that Cousins camp is not in a rush to kick things off. The Skins can't make him sign

 

I said this in one of the other threads yesterday. We can't make him sign. We can tag him, we can offer him a hugh contract, doesn't guarenatee he will sign it.

 

Shanahan going to the 49ers will create a massive problem for Scot. Just my opinion.

 

Edit - in fact, maybe it creates a bigger problem for Gruden. We know Gruden loves Kirk and he desperately need him here as QB. As for Scot, I'm still not convinced he's 100% sold on Kirk. Maybe a monster trade would be the kind of thing Scot dreams of. Will be an interesting to see how this unfolds.

[Koolblue13]

Well, if we could end up with the #2 pick in the first two rounds of this draft, I'm certain we could move back and really load up on a ton of young talent. Maybe even throw Reed in there too. Could probably fix the defense and running game in one off-season and maybe have a cowboy- esque turn around in two years, but even better.

[TSO]

7 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Its interesting how how many are on the side of the athlete wanting to maximize his money opportunity at all costs. I've never heard that be the case before in contract related stuff. Fortunate for him he's well spoken and fits the image.

 

Has as there ever been a time the Skins fan base has backed a guy who has openly discussed wanting his money? Genuinely curious. 

 

That's a really weird thing to say. That's how all players operate in the Free Agency era. Some are just honest about it, some aren't. And you're going way overboard, it's not like the guy said "yeah, they better give me the MAX or else!" 

 

Few things that I really find odd about your perspective along with some others saying similar things: 

 

1) The guy said it's about a certain percentage of the cap and what the market dictates based on the cap. He also literally said that he's not trying to suck out every dollar. Not only that, but he even went so far as to say that he'd re-negotiate if there was a problem in the future with the team winning and it was because of how much he was making. 

 

2) He didn't say he "wants" to be here, but he never said he didn't, either. In fact, he stated he's had a "positive experience" here and named all the coaches involved. He's said previously how instrumental Scot was in making him a starter. 

 

3) This weird notion that has popped up recently that he possibly won't sign here is completely baseless. The guy clearly stated that if the Skins tag him again he'll sign it. He's literally said that. He said, about possibly being tagged again, that "... there’s no point in dragging it out or pouting about it. It’s a great opportunity. They’re bringing you back for a reason and it sends a strong message." But let's just ignore that. 

 

4) For all the lame psycho-analysis that's occurring about him stating the FACT that "the ball is in their court" during the infamous interview with Grant and Danny, where is the psycho-analysis about him saying he hopes to be doing the interview with them next year!? What does that mean? Nah, let's just ignore that but dig as deeply as we can with other things, weeeeee! 

 

I'm frankly tired of people cherry picking and omitting things that don't fit their desired narrative.

 

When I read everything he's said, the worst I get from it is that he only wants to be here if the Redskins want him to be here. That's truly the worst you can gather from it. God forbid, how horrific! How dare he! 

[Rskins06]

Agreed, I have never heard anything from Kirk ever implying he doesn't want to be here.  But, fans love to get inside their heads and read between the lines or try to find the real meaning behind his statements.

 

[TSO]

Just now, Rskins06 said:

Agreed, I have never heard anything from Kirk ever implying he doesn't want to be here.  But, fans love to get inside their heads and read between the lines or try to find the real meaning behind his statements.

 

 

And that'd be fine if they were just being fair about it. I mean, I get why people are annoyed that he doesn't just say it, and that there are things you can interpret as him being doubtful of wanting to be here... but then there's plenty there to indicate he does want to be here. It really goes both ways. 

 

But it's like one legitimate interpretation with the various quotes as evidence is purposely omitted. That's what bothers me. It's disingenuous. 

[PortisBetts]

Look, everyone is saying he has all the leverage, but that is dependent on how much risk he wants to take again. We can tag him and plop a nice guaranteed contract in front of him and then the choice is on him. If we offer 60 million guaranteed(or whatever the number is according to the cap), over 5 years, do you really think he is going to turn that down? It would be extremely risky for him to just sign the franchise tag and leave it up to chance again. At the same time, how much more, at that high guarantee point, is someone like SF going to offer him. He is going to get a top offer from us, so I highly doubt anything SF offers is going to be so much higher than ours plus their 2 first round picks. Its just not going to happen.

 

I really think this is more the media and agents playing games than anything else. 

[TheGreek1973]

Josh Norman said exactly what most of as know to be true.  This team was let down big time by a horrid 3rd defense, last in the league and it wasn't even close.  Now some in here want to say oh man this is the reason you don't want to sign Cousins because you will not have money left over to fix the D.  BS, most of our problems were coaching IMO and you will see the difference this year with a different DC and a couple of additions. We may not crack top 20 and I bet you anything we will not be last in the league in 3rd down conversion stops.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

Josh Norman said exactly what most of as know to be true.  This team was let down big time by a horrid 3rd defense, last in the league and it wasn't even close.  Now some in here want to say oh man this is the reason you don't want to sign Cousins because you will not have money left over to fix the D.  BS, most of our problems were coaching IMO and you will see the difference this year with a different DC and a couple of additions. We may not crack top 20 and I bet you anything we will not be last in the league in 3rd down conversion stops.

None of the guys we've interviewed has had an 0-16 record on his resume.

 

So that's something. 

[wit33]

6 hours ago, Stefanskins said:

tru dat

noooo...fortunate for him, he threw for another franchise record and almost 5,000 yards...

/which was just luck...

 

For sure...

 

Other stuff has helped him publicly with the fan base. Usually a guy would be labled a "me guy", greedy, about the money by the fan base and local media. Having questions about his approach with contract is represented by the minority. It just helps he fits the image is all and that many are deep rooted in their support for him.

[wit33]

2 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

That's a really weird thing to say. That's how all players operate in the Free Agency era. Some are just honest about it, some aren't. And you're going way overboard, it's not like the guy said "yeah, they better give me the MAX or else!" 

 

Few things that I really find odd about your perspective along with some others saying similar things: 

 

When I read everything he's said, the worst I get from it is that he only wants to be here if the Redskins want him to be here. That's truly the worst you can gather from it. God forbid, how horrific! How dare he! 

 

Nothing you are saying is incorrect, as it pertains to his direct quotes, but he's made the conscious decision to float the other stuff and bring negotiation tactics out for the media and public to consume. Its as if some feel no discussion is warranted about his teams decision to "play hard ball" with team in the media as well in private negotiations. To the point he's discussing his percent cap number on a talk radio show lol.

 

It's not one excerpt, as you keep lamenting, it's the game plan he and his team decided to put forth to maximize his contract for a year now.

 

 I did appreciate his full statement and it did seem he showed a team first approach when talking about maneuvering his money around in future years. 

 

You've decided to hunker down and support him and his approach; it's not a right or wrong decision in my eyes. Much of it has to do with personal experiences and what some one values. To each is own.

 

Hes saying he wants to be here if dollar amount demanded is met. If you don't get some of the uproar with that, then there will be no middle ground reached (not that this happens on this board). I understand wanting maximum dollars is common place in sports, but it's uncommon for negotiating to take place within the media--- ESPECIALLY from a "smart" or any QB.