The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[bobandweave]

20 minutes ago, Fuzzy Dunlop said:

Kirk cousins is a good QB but he isn't good enough to warrant signing him at any cost (25 TD 12 Int). Of course if he goes we won't have a QB as good as him on the roster next season but that isn't the end of the world. The better we can make the other 21 positions the less we will need out of our QB.

 

 

 

 

[bobandweave]

18 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Nice long winded post. But if he doesnt want to be here. Which is being reported by some very reliable sources. Then He doesnt want to be here. Period. You get what you can for him and move on.

 

If he doesn't want to be here prove it. Show us he doesn't want to be here. If you got something to show he doesn't then please share. Pretty pretty please. If everyone is reporting this then finding some articles that shows this should be easy right?

 

Otherwise your pushing fake news as if it is relevant and listening to click bait nonsense.

 

You want to know his value in this league?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2017/01/18/redskins-quarterback-kirk-cousins-is-the-talk-of-the-free-agent-market/?utm_term=.455fd96b2e4c

 

Everyone wants Kirk Cousins.

 

Now on the off chance that Pierre Garcon was wrong saying Kirk wants to be here and those people saying what you believe to be true about Cousins and he doesn't want to be here then lets not forget something. We control his rights. If someone was a piece of garbage saying he wouldn't re-sign with us then I say trade him to the Browns or JETS. Send him straight to NFL hell and hurt him and his future. Forget first round pick, seriously bust open a can of whoop ass on him and burn him and take it on the chin. There is absolutely no way in hell you give him what he may want at that point - Playing for Kyle or Sean - Hell no. If he goes on to have a Superbowl winning great career this team is forever known as the one that let him get away. We become the Chargers.

 

If he's feeling this way then punish this man in public so that the next guy who comes through those doors will think twice about pulling that type of crap ever.

 

The Redskins gave him his NFL chance and let him live out his childhood dreams, they gave him his starting job. They gave him 20 million bucks for one season. They gave him everything. If anyone is like Eli Manning and refuses to play for us then forget him. Team over player always. That's what I would do, make an example of him so that never happens again not give in to what ever pressure is out there and never give him what he wants ever.

 

And there is the rub, players know this could happen to them so they don't say things like that. Just because Kirk didn't spell it out for you in his outgoing press conference doesn't mean anything. That's style points.Cousins feels disrespected for being made to prove it this year, that is undeniable.

 

What is in question is this belief that Kirk doesn't want to be on this team. I do believe he wants to be on this team. I do believe outside influences (Agents opponents etc) very well could be behind nonsense like that. Until proven otherwise.

 

 

 

[CTskin]

Kirk has top 10 stats, but until he can man up in big games, he'll never be considered top 10, nor should he. If we sign him long term then we'll be back in the playoffs, but does anyone honestly trust him to win at least three games (three high pressure games) and get us to the big one. I don't. He's 28, not 23, people need to stop making excuses for his lack of composure. He just doesn't have it, he's never had it, look back to his Michigan State Bowl games for more proof. 

 

Sign & trade would be our best option, if actually feasible. I see a lot of naive people who don't want to believe that Kirk wants out of DC. They're the ones who think the "How do you like me now" followed by nuggee was a friendly, excited encounter. There was A LOT of animosity behind that, and it was easily read in both Kirk and McClu's faces. There are a lot of flags pointing to him wanting to leave and zero pointing at him wanting to stay. Is that really not obvious?

 

I believe Gruden's system is phenomenal for QBs. If we drafted and essentially "redshirted" a QB who possessed a high football IQ and just average physical ability, (composure would also be nice), we'd be in a great position. Next year may be rough, but going forward from there with an extra $24M in cap and a couple high draft picks is a healthy recipe.

[PortisBetts]

I cannot wait until the Redskins sign him long term and this stupid argument stops.

[NoCalMike]

Is anyone able to break down how Seattle did Wilson's contract and how SF did Kaepernick's contract when it looked like they got paid an absurd amount of money but in real dollars it wasn't crippling to their franchises?  Is that something GMSM would look to possibly do with Kirk?  Structure the contract to where no matter how much he is paid for 2-3 seasons there are options say after 2019 where both sides could part mutually if it doesn't work without hurting the franchise?

[bird_1972]

2 minutes ago, PortisBetts said:

I cannot wait until the Redskins sign him long term and this stupid argument stops.

 

But ... he doesn't want to stay in Washington, I thought?

[JrW2145]

Ive always been a fan of Kirk and think he's proven over the last two years that he is at worst a top half of the league starting qb and his stats would suggest top 8 even. I think we would be absolutely crazy not to resign him and continue to build the team around him. Do I think he's ever going to be Tom Brady elite? No but I also don't think he's reached his ceiling quite yet either. As good as Brady, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger are I'm sure they would all agree that they've improved drastically from where they were after their second season as starters to where they are now and it only comes from experience. As fans we can all see that there are areas of Kirk's game that could use improvement and if we see it then I'm sure he does and knows that he has continue to get better and I believe he will. So even though I doubt Kirk will ever be considered "elite" as long as we continue to build talent around him he'll at least give us a chance at winning a championship. Certainly a much better chance than Colt McCoy or Nate Sudfeld would.  

[bobandweave]

5 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Kirk has top 10 stats, but until he can man up in big games, he'll never be considered top 10, nor should he. If we sign him long term then we'll be back in the playoffs, but does anyone honestly trust him to win at least three games (three high pressure games) and get us to the big one. I don't

 

 

Your opinion versus

 

Sean McVay's opinion

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000775854/article/mcvay-you-can-win-a-championship-with-kirk-cousins

 

Mike Shanahan's opinion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/12/22/kirk-cousinss-no-1-fan-mike-shanahan-still-thinks-cousins-can-win-a-super-bowl/?utm_term=.6c5a4ba8f71c

 

Want me to continue? I think he can win a Superbowl especially after looking at the ages of the starting QBs in the league. When those guys retire if Kirk today was the #7 QB in the NFL then he moves up. He younger then everyone and Franchise QBs do not hit the open market in free agency, besides if everyone thought like you did there is no way in hell we could even talk about possibly trading him because we would get no suitors. The fact we have suitors proves others don't believe this either.

[clskinsfan]

11 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

If he doesn't want to be here prove it. Show us he doesn't want to be here. If you got something to show he doesn't then please share. Pretty pretty please. If everyone is reporting this then finding some articles that shows this should be easy right? I'll wait.

 

 

I consider Schefter about as reliable a source as you are gonna find. And while he never directly said this this morning. It was prety damn close. He is the one that said Kirk could just not sign his franchise tender this year and sit out. Then go wherever he wants next year. So in reality the Redskins do not hold all of this power that  you like to claim. Schefter is pretty darn careful about spouting garbage. And he has THE BEST contacts in the league. So take it for what its worth. But I will certainly take his word over some guy posting on a message board every day of the week.

[kgor93]

Ok here's something that doesn't make sense about the "let him walk and draft a QB" argument. Let's say we do that. WORST CASE, we set the franchise back a great deal without a decent QB and always wonder what could have been. But BEST CASE you hit gold with a QB you drafted. Fast forward 4-5 years and you have to pay this mythical hypothetical QB. By then, the going rate will be $ 30 million instead of $ 20. 

 

Pay him.

[bobandweave]

1 minute ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I consider Schefter about as reliable a source as you are gonna find. And while he never directly said this this morning. It was prety damn close. He is the one that said Kirk could just not sign his franchise tender this year and sit out. Then go wherever he wants next year. So in reality the Redskins do not hold all of this power that  you like to claim. Schefter is pretty darn careful about spouting garbage. And he has THE BEST contacts in the league. So take it for what its worth. But I will certainly take his word over some guy posting on a message board every day of the week.

 

And he's touting his own brand saying that.

 

See he's been saying that for a while now, this isn't "news" which is why it's not being reported.

 

Said this in June:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/06/29/adam-schefter-thinks-kirk-cousins-will-bet-on-himself-with-franchise-tag/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.113966244c75

 

Said the same nonsense in December:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/11/30/espns-adam-schefter-isnt-convinced-kirk-cousins-feels-an-allegiance-to-redskins/?utm_term=.a25771d6f7fc

 

And there is absolutely no proof to him saying any of this it's just speculation.

 

The fact that you can't tell the difference between fact and fiction is the problem here. And you produced absolutely zero proof of this when pressed just like I thought. Adam Schefter has been saying that for a long time now, proves absolutely nothing

[bobandweave]

http://stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=65&c=21773&f=5815143

 

BTW here is the "news" from today if anyone missed it. It's not news, not breaking anything, just Adam speculating that Kirk could sit out this season and refuse to sign the Franchise tender.

 

Its impossible for me to think that Kirk Cousins hates us so much that he would turn down 23 million bucks and sit out this year. Way too far fetched for me

[wit33]

1 hour ago, MCnDaHouse said:

If this team had a better defense we probably aren't having this discussion. We would have won about 3 more games. Yes, he has warts and seems to wilt against better teams. However, name me a better available option at QB. If you let him go and try to draft a QB then you're basically restarting/rebuilding on Offense. I would Franchise tag him. Then work on the defense through the draft and free agency. We've already committed to having a new DC.

 

At the end of next season you evaluate the team and coaching staff and go from there. If things aren't better then you would have the option of blowing up the team and going in a different direction with coaching and QB.

 

If the defense were just 15 points better they'd been top 15 in the league. 

 

The defense was average or just below it, when comparing it to the rest of the league. 

 

My my hope is the offense gets better. Need to get an elite run game going to assist Kirk and hope he grows in ability to carry team when playing defenses that are able to slow the run game down (which is inevitable). 

[Taylor 36]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

If the defense were just 15 points better they'd been top 15 in the league. 

 

The defense was average or just below it, when comparing it to the rest of the league. 

 

My my hope is the offense gets better. Need to get an elite run game going to assist Kirk and hope he grows in ability to carry team when playing defenses that are able to slow the run game down (which is inevitable). 

In which category would the defense have come close to top 15 in the league with just 15 more points?  On the flip side, if Kirk was just a few points better in any of several categories he would have been number one in the league for those categories.  As it stands, playing the stats game, he was top eight in most categories, top five in more than half.  Defense crapped the bed in most of the games this season and had their numbers padded by a weak Bears offense and third string QB in week 16.  The Redskins would have easily won at least three more games if it weren't for the defense.

[RonArtest15]

32 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

And he's touting his own brand saying that.

 

See he's been saying that for a while now, this isn't "news" which is why it's not being reported.

 

Said this in June:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/06/29/adam-schefter-thinks-kirk-cousins-will-bet-on-himself-with-franchise-tag/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.113966244c75

 

Said the same nonsense in December:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/11/30/espns-adam-schefter-isnt-convinced-kirk-cousins-feels-an-allegiance-to-redskins/?utm_term=.a25771d6f7fc

 

And there is absolutely no proof to him saying any of this it's just speculation.

 

The fact that you can't tell the difference between fact and fiction is the problem here. And you produced absolutely zero proof of this when pressed just like I thought. Adam Schefter has been saying that for a long time now, proves absolutely nothing

 

Schefter and the Shanahan's have been tight for a minute.  I put A LOT of stock in what he says about the potential 49ers/Kyle/Kirk dynamic.  This isn't a case of someone like Stephen A. Smith/Chris Broussard spouting off from the mouth about their "sources."  I think this might actually have legs. 

[Dissident2]

54 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I consider Schefter about as reliable a source as you are gonna find. And while he never directly said this this morning. It was prety damn close. He is the one that said Kirk could just not sign his franchise tender this year and sit out. 

 

I can't imagine Kirk ever doing that. Not signing a franchise tender and then sitting out would hurt his value and overall brand pretty substantially. The NFL has a short memory when it comes to play, a long one when it comes to things like this. It would also send a bad message to his future employers. I also just don't think Kirk is that kind of person. 

 

There is a lot of validity to the idea that he may not want to be here. I get that same feeling, which is a shame. If they franchise him again, he will play, but I hope they don't franchise him, unless they're doing it solely to secure a better trade. Pay him the money, sign a long-term deal, or get rid of him before the season starts to the highest bidder. The last thing I want is a lame duck QB playing next year, knowing that, no matter how good he does, he will most likely not be back the following year. There's no way they franchise him a third time for something like $35 million per. 

[MisterPinstripe]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

And he better be able to will the team to victory when all else fails. This guy doesnt do that yet. 

4 of our 8 wins this year were 4th quarter comebacks or game winning drives by Cousins and the tie was a 4th quarter comeback which should have been a game winning drive if our kicker doesnt shank it. And against the Lions he drove down the field with us down and scored a TD right before the end of the game which should have been his 5th comeback/game winning drive. But our defense couldnt hold for 40 seconds. So it seems to me like he already does do it.

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Nice long winded post. But if he doesnt want to be here. Which is being reported by some very reliable sources. Then He doesnt want to be here. Period. You get what you can for him and move on.

Can you provide one source that says he doesnt want to be there? If it was reported by a source, and especially a reliable one, it should be easy to back that up.

59 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I consider Schefter about as reliable a source as you are gonna find. And while he never directly said this this morning. It was prety damn close. He is the one that said Kirk could just not sign his franchise tender this year and sit out. Then go wherever he wants next year. So in reality the Redskins do not hold all of this power that  you like to claim. Schefter is pretty darn careful about spouting garbage. And he has THE BEST contacts in the league. So take it for what its worth. But I will certainly take his word over some guy posting on a message board every day of the week.

Ohhhh I see, you dont actually have a source that says that. So what did Schefter ACTUALLY say that said Kirk doesnt want to be here?

[goskins10]

 

There seems some confusion about the Tag and Kirk potentially sitting out.

 

If he signs the tag, he is not sitting out. You only hold out if you don't want to sign the tag and cannot agree to a long term contract. The goal is to get the team to either give you a better contract or release you. Once you sign the tag, there is nothing to be gained by sitting out - other than being an idiot as you are then subject to major fines.  

 

 

[bobandweave]

4 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

Schefter and the Shanahan's have been tight for a minute.  I put A LOT of stock in what he says about the potential 49ers/Kyle/Kirk dynamic.  This isn't a case of someone like Stephen A. Smith/Chris Broussard spouting off from the mouth about their "sources."  I think this might actually have legs. 

 

Well call it what it is. Adam never said what I seen people posting about it here. What that was is a reporter bloviating saying he has the option to sit out the year. Same thing Adam Schefter been saying for a long time now. Its the same brand saying that and its on target. Schefter has a great rep, but he wasn't breaking news today he was guessing the same thing he's been guessing for a long time now.

 

When Adam said it Cooley replied to Adam and objected to it being said and asked Adam why he was saying that, Adam replied with "Well its his right to do that" and Cooley backed off at that point. You can not object to that.

 

We can't deny that if Cousins wanted to sit out and not sign a contract this year he has that right. Every player can do that and it's true. 

 

What I've argued is anyone buying this as what is going to happen. It is a possibility. Just like its a possibility Kirk gets hit by a bus someday.

 

Cooley even goes on to say "Don't anyone think Kirk is being a D about this" and says he thinks he gets tagged. I get that Kirk may want to play for Sean or Kyle again and I get that those teams and other teams need QBs but it comes down to money here

 

If Kirk has a price in mind and the Redskins said fine here it is, you really think Kirk wouldn't sign it?

 

I don't think many NFL players would do that, I'm sure there is one or two that would but no where near the majority and pretty far fetched to believe.

[goskins10]

27 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

In which category would the defense have come close to top 15 in the league with just 15 more points?  On the flip side, if Kirk was just a few points better in any of several categories he would have been number one in the league for those categories.  As it stands, playing the stats game, he was top eight in most categories, top five in more than half.  Defense crapped the bed in most of the games this season and had their numbers padded by a weak Bears offense and third string QB in week 16.  The Redskins would have easily won at least three more games if it weren't for the defense.

 

I agree with your general point that if the D were better - we would have won more games. But it is a fact that if the D had allowed 15 less pts - it would have put them in 15th for total pts allowed (pts/gm also obviously). The Skins allowed 383 - good for 19th overall. Tampa gave up 369 for 15th overall.

[TSO]

I feel like the vast majority of you commenting on this topic have never entered into negotiations in your life. 

 

Like, have you ever even signed a lease at least? I mean... there were business locations I absolutely killed for, or wanted to stay in, but the last thing I ever did was let the landlord/broker know that. I'd totally bull**** and act like I had a million other options. "Yeah, I'm going to need you to lower that CAM and I think a 5% increase per year is way too high, I'll only accept 2%. I'm currently talking with another broker about x location who are offering a better package..." (in my mind, I was willing to take their original deal and I certainly wasn't talking with anyone else, lol). 

 

There is a stark contrast to Kirk when he's in negotiation mode versus when he's in team mode during the season. How anyone can't see this is beyond me. Didn't an article come out just last month with Kirk saying how appreciative he is of Scot and Jay. How Scot is the reason he was able to start in this league? 

 

Of course, no mention of that here. Surprise surprise. It's always only what fits the desired narrative, isn't it? 

 

So, yeah, now he'll probably say the complete opposite, lol. And you guys will just run with it. Yes, I'd rather hear him talk about his love for this place and how much he wants to stay, but I totally get why he'd do the complete opposite. And we even have a recent example of another QB doing exactly the same thing in Stafford. 

 

Do you guys really think Kirk or Stafford don't want to stay where they are comfortable, know their teammates, know their surroundings, have established a home, etc...?  I don't care what they say at this point. It's all about the negotiations. That's the smart thing for them to do. 

 

Why is this difficult to see? 

 

This might seem like I'm just rationalizing, but I'm not. I've understood this concept from day one. I wish I could find a post of mine from just a couple months ago where I mentioned how it's likely going to be ugly as all of these contract situations are. Von Miller with the Broncos last year looked like they were going to start an eternal war that affected the entire universe. Then, boom, he signs the last minute. There are countless examples of this crap. Every year. 

 

Yet, here we are losing our collective minds and hanging on every word.  

[Taylor 36]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I agree with your general point that if the D were better - we would have won more games. But it is a fact that if the D had allowed 15 less pts - it would have put them in 15th for total pts allowed (pts/gm also obviously). The Skins allowed 383 - good for 19th overall. Tampa gave up 369 for 15th overall.

My point is that in one category they could have statistically been top 15, but they were not a top half defense by any stretch if you actually watched them play.  If those that crap on Kirk are going to try to use an argument like that to support their stance, then they have to allow that Kirk was pretty close to being top of the league with many of his stats, not just one.  

[clskinsfan]

19 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

There seems some confusion about the Tag and Kirk potentially sitting out.

 

If he signs the tag, he is not sitting out. You only hold out if you don't want to sign the tag and cannot agree to a long term contract. The goal is to get the team to either give you a better contract or release you. Once you sign the tag, there is nothing to be gained by sitting out - other than being an idiot as you are then subject to major fines.  

 

 

 

Exactly. And that is a bargaining power that Kirk has. Last year he signed the tag as soon as it was placed on him. This year he could very well wait to sign it until AFTER the season begins. That would force the Skins to keep Cousins on the active roster or face a 3 game suspension once Kirk decided to sign the tag. So he has plenty of power in this negotiation. Yes. the skins can franchise him. But if Kirk doesnt want to be here he COULD make it very hard for Skins to want to keep him. 

 

Edit: And I will also add that once the Skins place the Franchise tag on Cousins that money MUST stay clear of the cap. So he can tie up 24 million of cap space while he sits out as well. Not saying he would/will do this. But it is possible.

[NoCalMike]

The whole "we can win with Kirk, despite him not being Rodgers, Ben, Brady, Manning....etc etc"  In theory, yes that is correct, you can certainly do that, but if you look at the QB's not in that elite level that have won a SB, most of them were carried by an elite defense and stout running game and ran more of a T.O.P. style of offense.

 

The entire idea behind paying those elite QB's what they make is because they elevate the players around them enough that you don't need the best WR tandem in the NFL or a roster full of skill position players that light up fantasy scoreboards every week. What those QB's do is make 2nd and 3rd WRs look like the next rising stars of the NFL and then they go get way overpaid by desperate teams in need, and then those QB's make the next batch of average players look great all over again.  

 

If you go ahead and pay Kirk somewhere in the ballpark of what those guys make with the knowledge ahead of time that he relies on a roster full of weapons to produce, then I am not sure how we become a championship team with him until the DNA of the franchise drastically changes.   

 

With that said, I would be perfectly fine with Kirk running the show if the goal of GMSM is to field a Top 5 defense and Running game, while the offense overall was middle of the pack, but that sort of team is not anywhere close to being this team at the moment. 

[goskins10]

5 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

My point is that in one category they could have statistically been top 15, but they were not a top half defense by any stretch if you actually watched them play.  If those that crap on Kirk are going to try to use an argument like that to support their stance, then they have to allow that Kirk was pretty close to being top of the league with many of his stats, not just one.  

 

Whoa there pilgrim ---  I said I agreed with you. But factually, they would have been a top 15 team in pts/gm. That's all I was saying. I never said that made them a top 15 D - did I? Again, I thought I was very clear I agreed with your point.

 

It's getting a little testy in here.