Trump and his cabinet/buffoonery- Get your bunkers ready!

[zoony]

Personally, i would never sit for the flag, simply because its that flag that gives me the right to protest without fear.  Sort of ironic, especially when players stand for god save the queen, the anthem for the most racially oppressive regime in world history

 

But i digress, players have the right to protest, and forcing anyone to stand is the very definition of tyranny and fascism.  People also have the right to not watch. This is all how freedom works, and im fine with watching it all play out.  Trump needs to stfu that guy is an embarassment

[AJ*]

4 minutes ago, blueskin said:

 

I agree in their right to protest.  I agree with certain Americans finding that disgusting.  I agree that if the corporation that employs them seeks to penalize them for disrupting or disrespecting the fans etc they can do so without violating the FA.

 

I don't agree with kneeling for the anthem, period.  Black fist to the sky, we can talk about that one, at least you show defiance instead of resignation or passivity.  You are still saluting the flag, but registering your distress.

 

And Trump has every right that Kaepernick has to vent his spleen, so long as he doesn't violate anyone's God-given or constitutionally-protected rights-- he hasn't yet, and probably won't.  And for what Trump said, he will risk consequences as well (no one has brought that up-- he could conceivably lose re-election over this, depending on the opinion of the electorate).

 

 

 

 Kneeling, black fist, what's the difference? A protest is a protest. Both gestures are silent and people will read into it what they want. It doesn't matter if you change the physical gesture, their reason for the protest still remains the same.

[blueskin]

3 minutes ago, AJ* said:

 

 Kneeling, black fist, what's the difference? A protest is a protest. Both gestures are silent and people will read into it what they want. It doesn't matter if you change the physical gesture, their reason for the protest still remains the same.

it makes all the difference.  Aesthetically, the black fist is more appealing (to me).  It is more defiant, but yet your are still standing and saluting.  

 

Still, I suppose I should be against that as well.  But if I had to choose, that would be the way I'd do it.

 

See, I'm not close minded.  I'm actually coming around on the protest stuff. I won't call Trump out of his name.  I still think you shouldn't disrespect the flag.  But like zoony I'll just watch it play out too.  Ratings, though, have been down since Kaep started this.

[LadySkinsFan]

Yeah, think of the hundreds of black players standing and raising their fists in the Black Power salute. 

 

That would be better, right? /sarcasm

 

 Again, flag and song are symbols, while the president doesn't respect the Constitution that he swore to preserve, protect, and defend against enemies foreign and domestic.

[blueskin]

8 minutes ago, zoony said:

Personally, i would never sit for the flag, simply because its that flag that gives me the right to protest without fear.  Sort of ironic, especially when players stand for god save the queen, the anthem for the most racially oppressive regime in world history

 

But i digress, players have the right to protest, and forcing anyone to stand is the very definition of tyranny and fascism.  People also have the right to not watch. This is all how freedom works, and im fine with watching it all play out.  Trump needs to stfu that guy is an embarassment

 

Is it tyranny if a private corporation punishes the protester, however? If the feds do it, of course.  If the states do it, of course.  They have the implicit threat of violence behind their actions.  But a corporation could be punished by its consumers (either way) if they disagreed with an action.  

1 minute ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Yeah, think of the hundreds of black players standing and raising their fists in the Black Power salute. 

 

That would be better, right? /sarcasm

 

 Again, flag and song are symbols, while the president doesn't respect the Constitution that he swore to preserve, protect, and defend against enemies foreign and domestic.

 

That would be fun to watch.  And I backed off from that earlier.  Have to be consistent.  

 

Devil's advocate- the right could (and did) say the same thing about President Obama.  Name me the president, and I'll dig up the constitutionally-questionable actions while in office.  

 

Who's to say who's right? Isn't all truth relative, after all?

[AsburySkinsFan]

50 minutes ago, blueskin said:

 

I addressed that a few posts ago.  I said I supported it as an example of pure protest.  And I gave some of my reasoning for why John Carlos' protest is different from Marshawn Lynch's, in terms of timing, forum and substance.

 

Child of the 70s here.  A black fist to the sky would be more appealing to me than kneeling, I have to admit.

I don’t get it. I simply fail to understand how one is acceptable protest and the other isn’t. The fact is that those black fists were rejected then by the same types of people then, and with the same exact arguments then as now.

And the reality is that the favorite Rightwing talking point that since these protestors are millionaires that their protest is somehow invalid is nothing but a red herring. It’s the same BS they trot out when Warren Buffet speaks out on behalf of the poor and middle class. These guys have a platform to deliver a message that few others have. Rightwingers ALWAYS try to ignore the message and attack the messenger and then pretend they’ve won. The reality is that there is a for profit prison industry that makes a fortune off racial disparity in law enforcement. The entire “war on drugs” was never anything more than a war agai st brown people. Racial profiling does exist in law enforcement. Stop and frisk laws are inherently racist. Mandatory minimums focus on “black people drugs”. Police brutality and excessive force does seem to have a much higher rate of occurence against brown people...including innocent people being shot in their cars, being shot in the back, being shot in the street while helping a patient. THESE are systemic issues faced by people of color across the nation, but for some reason Rightwingers feel that criticizing law enforcement is unAmerican and a sin in itself.

One of the main reasons we’re even having THIS conversation is because of these sins. But the problem is that the people who do not want these systemic sins ended want us to debate the damned protest rather than the sins.

THAT is compounding one sin on another.

[PleaseBlitz]

Flags dont give rights. They are made of cloth. What they are are symbols. For many different things. 

[NoCalMike]

Honest question here (mostly because I don't have the time to search so many back pages):

 

Are there some folks here who agree with the actual issues the protests/protesters are seeking to bring attention to, meaning they agree that the issues are worthy of needing more discussion and fixing and all that.....or is this mostly a case of those who disagree with protesting itself also happen to disagree with what they are protesting about?

 

When you venture out into the cesspool of most social media, it becomes quickly apparent that the outrage over "disrespecting the flag" really seems to be a thinly veiled smokescreen for merely just thinking the issues that are being brought up are non-problems to begin with.  The people who post and like and comment "damn right" on Tomi Lahren videos and such. She specially has moved the goal posts on this many times as her initial "outrage" was with not protesting "correctly" then it became about how they shouldn't even be protesting anything in the first place because "they make a lot of money"

 

The reason I am asking is because it would seem that the most effective form of protest is doing it in a public setting that almost forces the conversation.  It is also being done peacefully, quietly, and is not infringing on anyone else's rights to do as they please. It's not interrupting the game itself, it isn't stopping anyone else from standing etc etc etc.....When interviewed and asked to explain themselves they have said time and time again this isn't a protest against the military or all police or what not, but it doesn't seem to matter. I guess for me I don't understand the outrage and visceral reaction despite where you fall on the specific issues they want to bring light to. 

[blueskin]

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

I don’t get it. I simply fail to understand how one is acceptable protest and the other isn’t. The fact is that those black fists were rejected then by the same types of people then, and with the same exact arguments then as now.

And the reality is that the favorite Rightwing talking point that since these protestors are millionaires that their protest is somehow invalid is nothing but a red herring. It’s the same BS they trot out when Warren Buffet speaks out on behalf of the poor and middle class. These guys have a platform to deliver a message that few others have. Rightwingers ALWAYS try to ignore the message and attack the messenger and then pretend they’ve won. The reality is that there is a for profit prison industry that makes a fortune off racial disparity in law enforcement. The entire “war on drugs” was never anything more than a war agai st brown people. Racial profiling does exist in law enforcement. Stop and frisk laws are inherently racist. Mandatory minimums focus on “black people drugs”. Police brutality and excessive force does seem to have a much higher rate of occurence against brown people...including innocent people being shot in their cars, being shot in the back, being shot in the street while helping a patient. THESE are systemic issues faced by people of color across the nation, but for some reason Rightwingers feel that criticizing law enforcement is unAmerican and a sin in itself.

One of the main reasons we’re even having THIS conversation is because of these sins. But the problem is that the people who do not want these systemic sins ended want us to debate the damned protest rather than the sins.

THAT is compounding one sin on another.

Mandatory minimum? Systemic issues?  Stats from DOJ? I read a Harvard study that while finding bias (what person here can say they are never biased?), didn't find the same bias at play in shootings: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html.  Debate the methods and scientific weight all you like, because no study is without flaws.

 

Now, I'm not going to deny the stench of racism resulting from 400 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow.  But dwelling in the sins and seeking revenge on the descendants of long dead perps isn't the way to go.  

Philando Castile was innocent.  He was shot by a Hispanic cop.  Garner in new york was suffocated by officers under the command of a Black woman.  These are facts.

 

I won't stand or sit here and say the US is perfect.  I also won't sit here and chalk everything up to systemic racism as a knee-jerk reaction.  Dispassionately review the data/evidence, then make up your mind in light of that data/evidence, not on emotion.

 

I want the sins ended, but what is the remedy? What policy will you support that will change human nature? What policy changes will stop the black-on-black crime that is driving Black folks out of Chicago, for example? Just because an issue is raised in this way by 'right-wingers' doesn't mean it doesn't have a kernel of truth.  How many bona fide white-on-black lynchings have occurred in the past 20 years? Verses the converse? I don't know the stats, but I can surmise it likely isn't cut and dry.

 

Arguing about systemic racism, well, okay.  But what is your solution? And how is it attainable while still safeguarding the lives and liberty of all Americans?

 

If a cop stops me (it has happened), my hands are at 10 and 2, everything is yes sir/ma'am no sir/ma'am. I comply with all commands, because I am facing the weight of government that could take my life and get away with it.  I don't get smart with them, I don't curse.  I (try to) obey traffic laws, so I rarely get pulled over.  I teach my sons the same thing.  If I am mistreated, this is America, not Russia. Once I get a chance I call a lawyer and sue their asses.  If I die, God will avenge (Vengance is mine, says the Lord)- in this life or the afterlife.  And I will stand and give account for my sins to the same Judge judging the sins of Robert E. Lee and George Wallace.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

 

16 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

It's not interrupting the game itself, it isn't stopping anyone else from standing etc etc etc.....When interviewed and asked to explain themselves they have said time and time again this isn't a protest against the military or all police or what not, but it doesn't seem to matter. I guess for me I don't understand the outrage and visceral reaction despite where you fall on the specific issues they want to bring light to. 

 

Becuase very specific players are doing it that protest for something very specific and people just can't stand to see that. 

 

I'll let you read between the lines there if you want

 

 

[blueskin]

1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

 

Becuase entitled, insolent and lazy players are doing it and people just can't stand to see that. 

 

I'll let you read between the lines there if you want

 

 

 

Being entitled, insolent, and lazy is not unique to Black players/people.  I have seen PLENTY of lazy, entitled, and lazy whites, latinos, Arabs, Asians, etc.  

 

Don't invite us to read between the lines if you don't want the wrong conclusions drawn.  That statement above I might've had a problem with.  Relax, I don't think that is what you meant.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

3 minutes ago, blueskin said:

 

Being entitled, insolent, and lazy is not unique to Black players/people.  I have seen PLENTY of lazy, entitled, and lazy whites, latinos, Arabs, Asians, etc.  

 

Don't invite us to read between the lines if you don't want the wrong conclusions drawn.  That statement above I might've had a problem with.  Relax, I don't think that is what you meant.

 

I actually edited my post to take out the words used to not make it about what any specific poster said. Those were the words used to describe Kaep earlier and I think it's obvious what was intended. 

 

But the point remains as to the overwhelming reason why it bothers people 

[blueskin]

Just now, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I actually edited my post to take out the words used to not make it about what any specific poster said. 

 

But the point remains. 

 

oh, okay.  gotcha.  

[zoony]

26 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Flags dont give rights. They are made of cloth.

 

Now theres some hard hitting analysis

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

6 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Now theres some hard hitting analysis

 

 

Well you're the one that said "its that flag that gives me the right to protest."  Maybe there are sentient flags in Tennessee, but all my flags are just limp cloth that don't do much of anything, unless a breeze hits them, and even then they just flap around, flagily. Not one of them has ever given me any rights. 

[blueskin]

18 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Now theres some hard hitting analysis

 

 

 

God gives rights.  Period.  Governments (should) only affirm them.  Flags are a symbol of that government/state, and are due respect.  The only time they don't is when they are used to symbolize something systemically evil, like wiping out Native Americans (THAT is a protest I can get behind), or gassing Jewish civillians, or blowing up transgressors with anti-aircraft guns (Looking at you, li'l Kim).  Federally sanctioned slavery is finished (here), a civil war was fought.  Jim Crow is illegal, thanks to protests and upheaval in the 60s.  Humanity makes mistakes, and learns.  And sometimes it goes backwards.  But not in here, not yet.

 

Protests can be done without desecration.  without violence or intimidation.  Without insulting those paying you money to play a child's game.

 

 

NB: of course I feel slavery was intrinsically and systemically evil.  But the flag that flew over Fort Sumter later ended up flying over Richmond, and it flew over the capitol building where the first Black representatives and senators- Republicans btw- sat to represent their states.  Until a Satan's bargain between 'pantywaisted' Republicans and 'white-supremist' Democrats ended Reconstruction.  

[AsburySkinsFan]

21 minutes ago, blueskin said:

 

Philando Castile was innocent.  He was shot by a Hispanic cop.  Garner in new york was suffocated by officers under the command of a Black woman.  These are facts.

 

I won't stand or sit here and say the US is perfect.  I also won't sit here and chalk everything up to systemic racism as a knee-jerk reaction. 

 

I want the sins ended, but what is the remedy? What policy will you support that will change human nature? What policy changes will stop the black-on-black crime that is driving Black folks out of Chicago, for example? Just because an issue is raised in this way by 'right-wingers' doesn't mean it doesn't have a kernel of truth. 

 

Arguing about systemic racism, well, okay.  But what is your solution? And how is it attainable while still safeguarding the lives and liberty of all Americans?

 

If a cop stops me (it has happened), my hands are at 10 and 2, everything is yes sir/ma'am no sir/ma'am. I comply with all commands, because I am facing the weight of government that could take my life and get away with it.  I don't get smart with them, I don't curse.  I (try to) obey traffic laws, so I rarely get pulled over.  I teach my sons the same thing.  If I am mistreated, this is America, not Russia. Once I get a chance I call a lawyer and sue their asses.  If I die, God will avenge (Vengance is mine, says the Lord)- in this life or the afterlife.  And I will stand and give account for my sins to the same Judge judging the sins of Robert E. Lee and George Wallace.

You will of course notice that I said “police brutality” not “white cop vs black perp brutality” which is obviously the way you interpret “police brutality” dince your rebuttal was to cite the race of the offending officer. As far as being “under the command of a black woman” it takes a 5th grader to realize that makes little difference on the street.

 

I certainly don’t chalk everything up to systemic racism, never said that, even though it’s obvious again that’s what you read. What I did bring up is that there are systemic sins that need to be addressed, that are NOT being addressed as long as we’re all still here ****ing about what is acceptable protest. The lunch counter sit ins were an unacceptable protest, as was the Selma march. To those being protested AGAINST all protest is unacceptable, that’s why the protest becomes the issue and not the ISSUES!

 

Oh, and “What policy will you support that will change human nature?” This is nothing but intellectual laziness. You could use this line of questioning to invalidate every law on the books. But the fact is that laws do work, that’s why we have them. So jyst because human nature isn’t going anywhere does not mean that laws are useless, that’s infantile.

 

As far as a cop stopping you. I won’t assume your race. But the facts are that “driving shile black” is real. Cops don’t have the authority to pull you over without cause, and the more we let that go without publically shaming it the more authoritarian our society becomes and the more abuse we invite.

 

But, and I will say this, at least we are talking about issues and not kneeling.

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you, Mr. Putin....

 

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

18 minutes ago, blueskin said:

Without insulting those paying you money to play a child's game.

And there it is, entitlement.

Those players owe somebody something.

 

No, they only owe them what they contractually agree to, on field performance. 

Fans are not entitled to anything from them, as a Redskins fan I’ve accepted that fact after 20+ years of mediocrity. 

Trump is going nuts on Twitter, someone mark the date so we can see what happened in the Russian investigation this weekend.

Trump is going nuts on Twitter, someone mark the date so we can see what happened in the Russian investigation this weekend.

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

[zoony]

22 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

, but all my flags are just limp 

 

It was a metaphor, in the same sense you just used a metaphor for your ****!!

 

I miss the nutkick emoticon, truly

[blueskin]

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

You will of course notice that I said “police brutality” not “white cop vs black perp brutality” which is obviously the way you interpret “police brutality” dince your rebuttal was to cite the race of the offending officer. As far as being “under the command of a black woman” it takes a 5th grader to realize that makes little difference on the street.

 

I certainly don’t chalk everything up to systemic racism, never said that, even though it’s obvious again that’s what you read. What I did bring up is that there are systemic sins that need to be addressed, that are NOT being addressed as long as we’re all still here ****ing about what is acceptable protest. The lunch counter sit ins were an unacceptable protest, as was the Selma march. To those being protested AGAINST all protest is unacceptable, that’s why the protest becomes the issue and not the ISSUES!

 

Oh, and “What policy will you support that will change human nature?” This is nothing but intellectual laziness. You could use this line of questioning to invalidate every law on the books. But the fact is that laws do work, that’s why we have them. So jyst because human nature isn’t going anywhere does not mean that laws are useless, that’s infantile.

 

As far as a cop stopping you. I won’t assume your race. But the facts are that “driving shile black” is real. Cops don’t have the authority to pull you over without cause, and the more we let that go without publically shaming it the more authoritarian our society becomes and the more abuse we invite.

 

But, and I will say this, at least we are talking about issues and not kneeling.

 

Yeah, you're right in a way; protests are always unacceptable to those protested against.  Power doesn't concede anything without struggle (paraphrasing a great man).  But sitting at a lunch counter and being pelted with eggs while protesting a true injustice (segregation based on race in a private business) is one thing.  Being a multimillionaire disrespecting the symbol of your country while being paid to entertain your countrymen is far different, imho.

 

I never said you chalk 'everything' up to systemic racism.  But somethings are due to systemic bias, and other things are due to... something else.  Maybe a brutalizing police officer is having a haemorrhoid flare and ate at Chipotle, not being racist.  It doesn't excuse it, but it ain't racism.  I can't read minds.

 

No, I asked you for a specific policy change (or set of them).  Not intellectually lazy in the least.  It was a question probing you for your prescriptions out of these messes.  It was 'intellectually lazy' for you to dodge providing an answer.  But the question was framed in such a way that you couldn't answer it and not be wrong.  The aim is to end bias and racism, but to achieve that aim you need to adjust or change human nature, because all humans are capable of bias and racism, not just whites.

 

Yes, I'm Black.  I've been pulled over exactly twice in the past 15 years; once on the way home from a trauma shift (the cop let me go when he saw my scrubs and demeanor- tired but respectful), and once on my way to my office (running late).  Both times I was speeding and obviously Black.  Both times I treated the white officer with respect becoming his status as law enforcement, without sacrificing my own status or self-respect.  

[blueskin]

8 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

And there it is, entitlement.

Those players owe somebody something.

 

No, they only owe them what they contractually agree to, on field performance. 

Fans are not entitled to anything from them, as a Redskins fan I’ve accepted that fact after 20+ years of mediocrity. 

Trump is going nuts on Twitter, someone mark the date so we can see what happened in the Russian investigation this weekend.

Trump is going nuts on Twitter, someone mark the date so we can see what happened in the Russian investigation this weekend.

 

And the paying fans can choose not to grace them with the money spent on merchandise, tickets, cable subscriptions, etc.  

 

I, as I've said countless times, am a physician.  The patient pays fees, either self-pay or from insurance, for my services.  If I render service, say, drain an abscess, all they while insulting something they care about, is that not bad service? How will the patient feel if I call them ugly or insult the crucifix/wiccan pendant/hijab they are wearing before i treat their ailment, will they want to come back? Or take their fees elsewhere, despite whether I cured the infection or not.  My patients are entitled to my best, including my bedside manner and respect for their culture/practices.

 

Fans ARE entitled.  We are entitled to good effort, a good product, a team not run by the Marx brothers.  We are entitled to respect being paid to our shared symbols.  And we are entitled, if none of that is proffered, to take our hard earned cash elsewhere, without the tut-tutting of the elites.

[Hersh]

31 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DT is right. We must honor the courageous patriots that fought and died for our great American Flag. We must honor and respect it and that's why people must not fly the confederate flag anymore. 

 

 

[hailmary]

How does disrespecting our flag help anyone?