Trump and his cabinet/buffoonery- Get your bunkers ready!

[blueskin]

2 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

No sir, they are on the sidelines.

 

in the stadium, under the stands, adjoining the field, then.  SHeesh.

[redskins59]

2 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

No sir, they are on the sidelines.

 

And even if they protest on the field, who says it is against NFL policy?  

[TradeTheBeal!]

But what does this mean?

But what does that mean?

 

The far right is so predictably hollow.  They have nothing to add to any discussion...it's all trolling all the way down.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Just now, redskins59 said:

 

And even if they protest on the field, who says it is against NFL policy?  

Goodell, and he has supported the protesters.

[hailmary]

1 minute ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

I specifically asked you two questions.

GO BACK AND READ YOUR POST TO ME FROM THE START

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

Just now, TryTheBeal! said:

But what does this mean?

But what does that mean?

 

The far right is so predictably hollow.  They have nothing to add to any discussion...it's all trolling all the way down.

Yup, always switching the argument to the form of protests rather than the substance, because dealing with the substance is uncomfotable. It’s so much easier to argue and be divisive about black guys kneeling.

1 minute ago, hailmary said:

GO BACK AND READ YOUR POST TO ME FROM THE START

 

So you’re not going to answer my questions?

[Burgold]

2 minutes ago, blueskin said:

 

And what does the flag represent, pray tell? Symbols are what we are talking about, not brightly coloured strips of cloth.  

 

It's like immersing the crucifix in urine.  The 'artist' wasn't immersing the Church in urine literally, but symbolically.  

 

But at least they aren't setting fire to the flag.  yet.  

As a Christian weren't you commanded not to worship graven symbols?

 

As a Jew, I can tell you that God was very blunt about that. He said don't pray to statues. Don't pray to paintings. None of these are holy. Only God is holy. In the same vein, a flag is a graven symbol. It represents an idea, but it is not the idea itself. It is not the country itself.

[blueskin]

2 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

Kneeling for the anthem without fear of repercussion represents the Constitution more so than the flag itself. And also, the players never said they hate American or that they hate the military, that's just nonsense that lazy people (not saying you specifically) came up with to justify their misguided opinions.

Suuuuure.

 

Optics, my friend.  As I said, most of the players likely don't mean the disrespect they are showing.  I was a bomb thrower in my 20s (not literally).  But to the non-telepathic fellow American, it looks the same.  And I'm sure at least some of them DO hate America.  As is their right, of course.

[Sticksboi05]

1 minute ago, blueskin said:

Suuuuure.

 

Optics, my friend.  As I said, most of the players likely don't mean the disrespect they are showing.  I was a bomb thrower in my 20s (not literally).  But to the non-telepathic fellow American, it looks the same.  And I'm sure at least some of them DO hate America.  As is their right, of course.

 

Sure - yeah I'm 100% correct. Exercising peaceful protest as allowed by the First Amendment represents the First Amendment more than the flag. Seems cut and dry to me.

[blueskin]

Just now, Burgold said:

As a Christian weren't you commanded not to worship graven symbols?

 

As a Jew, I can tell you that God was very blunt about that. He said don't pray to statues. Don't pray to paintings. None of these are holy. Only God is holy. In the same vein, a flag is a graven symbol. It represents an idea, but it is not the idea itself. It is not the country itself.

 

LOL.  Who's worshiping?  I don't pray to the flag.  I don't pray to statues.  I don't pray to paintings.  

Are you saying as a Jew (shanah tova my friend, sincerely) you don't stand for the anthem? 

[AsburySkinsFan]

3 minutes ago, blueskin said:

 

in the stadium, under the stands, adjoining the field, then.  SHeesh.

Oh? So now youare entitled to what players do in the locker room? I’m sorry, but exactly how much do you think you are entitled to in their lives?

Like I said, you ideas of what you think you are entitled to are the problem. 

[blueskin]

5 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Yup, always switching the argument to the form of protests rather than the substance, because dealing with the substance is uncomfotable. It’s so much easier to argue and be divisive about black guys kneeling.

So you’re not going to answer my questions?

No, I stand by what I said.  There are different aspects to the argument, and I emphasize one or the other based on the direction and comments to which I'm responding.

 

I dealt with the substance several posts ago.  And now I'm mostly dealing with the form.  If you want to go back to substance, I'm your huckleberry.  

[AsburySkinsFan]

4 minutes ago, blueskin said:

 

LOL.  Who's worshiping?  I don't pray to the flag.  I don't pray to statues.  I don't pray to paintings.  

Are you saying as a Jew (shanah tova my friend, sincerely) you don't stand for the anthem? 

It’s even more than that as a Christian, Jesus specifically forbade swearing oaths. And Jesus said that his followers cannot serve two masters. The Pledge of Allegiance is a biolation of both.

 

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’  But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:33-37)

 

[blueskin]

3 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Oh? So now youare entitled to what players do in the locker room? I’m sorry, but exactly how much do you think you are entitled to in their lives?

Like I said, you ideas of what you think you are entitled to are the problem. 

 

So which are we talking about?  The kneeling on the sidelines, or the staying in the locker room? If they want to stay in the locker room to protest, does that not work against the argument regarding attention? If they are on the sidelines, they are on the field (albeit not on the field of play), but still part of the program (in this case, pregame).

 

Also, the locker room is part of the stadium, which is funded in most cities by taxpayer funds (in whole or in part).  And they are in the locker room as required by the terms of their contract and employment.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Just now, blueskin said:

 

So which are we talking about?  The kneeling on the sidelines, or the staying in the locker room? If they want to stay in the locker room to protest, does that not work against the argument regarding attention? If they are on the sidelines, they are on the field (albeit not on the field of play), but still part of the program (in this case, pregame).

 

Also, the locker room is part of the stadium, which is funded in most cities by taxpayer funds (in whole or in part).  And they are in the locker room as required by the terms of their contract and employment.

Are they under contract to you?

Are they under contract to their cities? 

Seems with each point your entitlement is getting more tenuous.

[blueskin]

2 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

It’s even more than that as a Christian, Jesus specifically forbade swearing oaths. And Jesus said that his followers cannot serve two masters. The Pledge of Allegiance is a biolation of both.

 

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’  But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:33-37)

 

Wait, where did we get on the pledge of alliegance?  They don't recite that at any games I know of.  I won't sit and be lectured to on Christian beliefs by people who might possibly not be Christians.  

 

Anyone can go to Biblehub and pull out a quotation.  

[Burgold]

2 minutes ago, blueskin said:

 

LOL.  Who's worshiping?  I don't pray to the flag.  I don't pray to statues.  I don't pray to paintings.  

Are you saying as a Jew (shanah tova my friend, sincerely) you don't stand for the anthem? 

If you don't then what is all this talk about disrespecting this graven symbol? This flag?

 

I do stand for the flag personally with hand on heart and hat or baseball cap off. I actually find it disconcerting when people don't (unless they have a disability). I'll tell you what I find disrespectful though. That's people chatting through the National Anthem and that I have heard at every football game I have attended. Still, as an American I will also stand for the notion of dissent.

 

We are a nation founded on protest. We are a nation where protest is baked into our being and protest is the ingredient that helps us correct our mistakes, checks our progress, and self-reflect. Kneeling instead of standing is a respectful form of protest in my view. It is nondisruptive. It does not incite violence. It raises their attention and point. Now, the more important issue and the debate we ought to be having is about disparities in treatment, in sentencing, in uses of force, in arrests, etc. To the degree there is abuse, it ought to be redressed. To pretend there is no problem is to ignore far too many shameful incidents that have occurred in too many places.

 

But even if the athletes are proven wrong or that their protest is about something trivial, their right to speak is still an important freedom to defend. It is an even more important when they have the blessings of their owners and league.

 

 

(Thanks for the Happy New Year wish. May your, and all my ES Friend's year, be full of joy, blessing, and ease.

[Sticksboi05]

1 minute ago, blueskin said:

Wait, where did we get on the pledge of alliegance?  They don't recite that at any games I know of.  I won't sit and be lectured to on Christian beliefs by people who might possibly not be Christians.  

 

Anyone can go to Biblehub and pull out a quotation.  

 

Lol, AsburySkinsFan is a pastor. I think he probably knows more than you on the subject matter.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Just now, blueskin said:

Wait, where did we get on the pledge of alliegance?  They don't recite that at any games I know of.  I won't sit and be lectured to on Christian beliefs by people who might possibly not be Christians.  

 

Anyone can go to Biblehub and pull out a quotation.  

You want my Christian resume?

I’ll show you my clergy robe if you’d like, how about my Bacherlor’s Degree in Religious Studies from a Conservative Baptist University. Or how about my Masters of Divinity from a leading seminary. Or the 20 years I spent in pulpit ministry.

 

Does that qualify me to have a discussion about Christianity with you?

[Burgold]

2 minutes ago, blueskin said:

Wait, where did we get on the pledge of alliegance?  They don't recite that at any games I know of.  I won't sit and be lectured to on Christian beliefs by people who might possibly not be Christians.  

 

Anyone can go to Biblehub and pull out a quotation.  

Asbury is an ordained minister who has led multiple missions into South America to serve the poor and lead people to the Christian Lord.

 

(I think ordained minister is the right term. Not sure the proper title in your faith.)

[blueskin]

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

Are they under contract to you?

Are they under contract to their cities? 

Seems with each point your entitlement is getting more tenuous.

 

Well, I (in miniscule amount) help pay their salaries.  Just like services I render are reimbursed in small proportion by each individual patient.  The cities are funded by taxpayer dollars, and they help defray the costs of the stadia.  The corporation (NFL and its constituent entities) make the policy on such things, and I disagree with that policy.  That's all.  They won't sanction such behavior, and they are wrong. 

 

Doesn't negate the point.  If I stop watching the NFL (not happening anytime soon) it won't fold immediately.  But if many stop watching, well, we might see something there.  

3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

If you don't then what is all this talk about disrespecting this graven symbol? This flag?

 

I do stand for the flag personally with hand on heart and hat or baseball cap off. I actually find it disconcerting when people don't (unless they have a disability). I'll tell you what I find disrespectful though. That's people chatting through the National Anthem and that I have heard at every football game I have attended. Still, as an American I will also stand for the notion of dissent.

 

We are a nation founded on protest. We are a nation where protest is baked into our being and protest is the ingredient that helps us correct our mistakes, checks our progress, and self-reflect. Kneeling instead of standing is a respectful form of protest in my view. It is nondisruptive. It does not incite violence. It raises their attention and point. Now, the more important issue and the debate we ought to be having is about disparities in treatment, in sentencing, in uses of force, in arrests, etc. To the degree there is abuse, it ought to be redressed. To pretend there is no problem is to ignore far too many shameful incidents that have occurred in too many places.

 

But even if the athletes are proven wrong or that their protest is about something trivial, their right to speak is still an important freedom to defend. It is an even more important when they have the blessings of their owners and league.

 

 

(Thanks for the Happy New Year wish. May your, and all my ES Friend's year, be full of joy, blessing, and ease.

 

Moot point then.  I am not in my heart worshiping this country.  If anything, I'm expressing gratitude to God for placing me here and not elsewhere. Like North Korea (if you want to protest anyone's flag...)

[AsburySkinsFan]

Just now, blueskin said:

 

Well, I (in miniscule amount) help pay their salaries.  Just like services I render are reimbursed in small proportion by each individual patient.  The cities are funded by taxpayer dollars, and they help defray the costs of the stadia.  The corporation (NFL and its constituent entities) make the policy on such things, and I disagree with that policy.  That's all.  They won't sanction such behavior, and they are wrong. 

 

Doesn't negate the point.  If I stop watching the NFL (not happening anytime soon) it won't fold immediately.  But if many stop watching, well, we might see something there.  

The NFL will not collapse because of these protests nor you pulling your miniscule contributions to the player salaries.

 

That said, why do you pay to see people violate the Sabbath?

[blueskin]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Asbury is an ordained minister who has led multiple missions into South America to serve the poor and lead people to the Christian Lord.

 

(I think ordained minister is the right term. Not sure the proper title in your faith.)

 

And?

 

His use of Our Lord's (well, mine.  Your cousin's words) words is inappropriate in this setting.  He is not behaving as a pastor, but as a combatant in a friendly argument.  My being a doctor has little bearing here as well.  

1 minute ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

The NFL will not collapse because of these protests nor you pulling your miniscule contributions to the player salaries.

 

That said, why do you pay to see people violate the Sabbath?

Why do you, pastor?

[Burgold]

14 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

The NFL will not collapse because of these protests nor you pulling your miniscule contributions to the player salaries.

 

That said, why do you pay to see people violate the Sabbath?

Let's not have people questioning each other's faith. I realize he started it by questioning your credentials... or maybe I started it with my talk of graven idols (which I thought was a rather clever point), but let's not delve into the truth of each other's faith.

 

At least not in this thread. It might be fun in a different thread that's not about government. In other words, let's separate church and state lol

[AsburySkinsFan]

Just now, blueskin said:

 

Why do you, pastor?

Now once again you’re changing the topic. You said to me specifically, “I won't sit and be lectured to on Christian beliefs by people who might possibly not be Christians.“

 

I laid out some of my Christian bonafides, you then move the goalposts. Am I qualified to discuss the Christian faith with you or not?