twa Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 How many of those do we attribute to PR's incompetence and corruption? I'm fine with blaming Trump, but he has company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Let’s not gloss over the fact that he said that the numbers are a conspiracy by the Democrats. If he would just say they didn’t do their best or he could have done better, that would be one thing, but he keeps bragging about how great everything went and now he’s blaming the Dems for the death total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 19 minutes ago, twa said: How many of those do we attribute to PR's incompetence and corruption? I'm fine with blaming Trump, but he has company I don't think people are trying to blame every single death on Trump. I think there are a few key points that are widely accepted. 1) the government didn't do enough. 2) less people should have died We can quibble on specifics and numbers and crazy minor minutae but that's not helpful. Macro level, the government failed. I don't think that was controversial except with the far gone right even before we saw the tons of bottled water that never got distributed. Blaming infrastructure is a cop out. Yes it was weak. And yes it was devastated. But with everything we know about the government's response, it is absurd to suggest that fewer people wouldn't have died if the government had done a better job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said: I don't think people are trying to blame every single death on Trump. I think there are a few key points that are widely accepted. 1) the government didn't do enough. 2) less people should have died How many less with a perfect Fema response? How many of those are from federal vs local issues? Does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedskinsFan44 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 29 minutes ago, twa said: How many less with a perfect Fema response? How many of those are from federal vs local issues? Does it matter? At this point, what does it matter? Thanks twa Add: What difference does it make. Damn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 49 minutes ago, visionary said: Let’s not gloss over the fact that he said that the numbers are a conspiracy by the Democrats. If he would just say they didn’t do their best or he could have done better, that would be one thing, but he keeps bragging about how great everything went and now he’s blaming the Dems for the death total. Exactly. This is my biggest issue on the thing. No emergency response is going to be perfect, but Trump trying to blame the big shortcomings of his federal government's response, and the resulting dead human beings, on some conspiracy by Democrats is beyond the pale and reinforces what an absolutely amoral, narcissistic, disgusting piece of human excrement he is; even when it comes to thousands of dead people he's the victim and he finds a way to make it about himself. Can you imagine if Obama or Bush had done that? There would literally have been people outside of the White House with pitchforks and they would have been absolutely right to be there. Every day we get new reminders of how low Trump has brought us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, twa said: How many less with a perfect Fema response? How many of those are from federal vs local issues? 46 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said: We can quibble on specifics and numbers and crazy minor minutae but that's not helpful. Macro level, the government failed. I don't think that was controversial except with the far gone right even before we saw the tons of bottled water that never got distributed. 37 minutes ago, twa said: Does it matter? This is rhetorical, right? Yes it matters that less people would have died with a better response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Just now, DogofWar1 said: Yes it matters that less people would have died with a better response. If it matters we need to answer the questions, not dismiss them as "quibble on specifics and numbers and "crazy minor minutae" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said: From the second page of the study: The bold is in the original study, I did not add it. Thanks. I however disagree with that method of determining related deaths and selling them as directly caused. I would call them indirectly caused. 2 hours ago, RedskinsFan44 said: So even by this metric Trump under reports the final number of 64. As you said the 3k final number of deaths attributable to the storm is a different metric, one that can be related to the effectiveness of the response. Trump claimed the response to the disaster in Puerto Rico was great, people pointed to the study indicating it wasnt, Trump makes an ass of himself on twitter, we argue about whether 3000 deaths should be the number instead of was the job done an "A+". add: Or was it all a conspiracy by the Dems to undermine his presidency, which many people say is the best ever. add2: Point being deaths attributable to hurricane post storm is a better metric of the response than deaths during impact. Certainly infrastructure was a factor. Yea. Probably because trump is a moron. No argument there. I was just discussing how deaths are attributed. 1 hour ago, visionary said: Let’s not gloss over the fact that he said that the numbers are a conspiracy by the Democrats. If he would just say they didn’t do their best or he could have done better, that would be one thing, but he keeps bragging about how great everything went and now he’s blaming the Dems for the death total. Totally agree. But he is a mormon so he is just gonna trump. My debate was how deaths are counted. I got no argument with trump being a moron and/or screwing away the response. But this isn't a hill worth dying on to me so I will leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said: Thanks. I however disagree with that method of determining related deaths and selling them as directly caused. I would call them indirectly caused. I think it's a distinction without difference. It's kind of like saying someone that died jumping out of the window of a burning building wasn't directly killed by the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 1 minute ago, PleaseBlitz said: I think it's a distinction without difference I disagree but again, not a hill worth dying on to me. And I've probably derailed this thread long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 The point here is that the POTUS is not capable of showing one ounce of contrition for a tragedy that included the massive loss of American lives. He is a **** rag of the highest order and an embarrassment to civilized society, no matter how you want to calculate the death toll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 George Washington: "Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light." Abraham Lincoln: "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts." Donald Trump: "You've got to deny, deny, deny and push back. If you admit to anything and any culpability, then you're dead. You've got to push back hard. You've got to deny anything that's said about you. Never admit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 6 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: 35% of this country, including a few "friendly" members of this forum ride with Trump. I'd offer to help explain things to them, but I don't have the time...or enough crayons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said: I'd offer to help explain things to them, but I don't have the time...or enough crayons. FAKE CRAYONS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 They do need to reign in the abuse of national injunctions, though the higher courts should lead in the effort. https://www.lawfareblog.com/case-against-national-injunctions-no-matter-who-president Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 1 hour ago, twa said: If it matters we need to answer the questions, not dismiss them as "quibble on specifics and numbers and "crazy minor minutae" Except you're asking for fairly exact numbers, and not only that but numbers from counterfactuals. How many lives would that water have saved? It's an impossible question. But its also ridiculous to suggest that that amount of clean drinking water wouldn't have saved some people. Will you accept as answers: - A lot of people - Many of that a lot. - Yes If so, then cool. But if you're looking for more specific answers, then all you're doing is fishing for a way to avoid assigning blame because we can't definitively quantify reality vs. counterfactuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Sounds like BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, twa said: Sounds like BS Thank you for gracing us all with such a well thought out, clear, concise, retort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 58 minutes ago, twa said: Sounds like BS lol. This response reminds of me someone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Assignation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 2 hours ago, DogofWar1 said: all you're doing is fishing for a way to avoid assigning blame because we can't definitively quantify reality vs. counterfactuals. That's all hes ever doing bruh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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