Where Is The Big Boy Football We Were Promised?

[TSO]

@Veryoldschool Ok, I guess we're getting somewhere now, but I wasn't trying to debate with you. My point was related to your general tone, attitude and reading comprehension (not an inability on your end, I think you're certainly smart enough, just a lack of willingness). 

I'm glad though you're at least attempting to address some of the things raised here now. 

Now, I might respond to your points later on. A little busy right now but I think this can certainly be an interesting discussion, so long as there is a sincere desire to understand the points raised on either side, because for a while there it was like you weren't reading what you were responding to.

By the way, I relate to a lot of this because I really tried to hit on these things in a blog entry I made right before the season began.  

[Skinsinparadise]

On 9/27/2016 at 1:37 PM, Veryoldschool said:

We have 11 FGs to our opponents 5.  It is tough for 1 dimensional times to score in the redzone.  It took 5 FGs, 300 yards of passing, 2 touchdowns, a 106 QBR and no less than 7 scoring drives to barely eek out a 2 point victory over what I think is a mediocre team.  If you have 7 scoring drives you should be kicking somebody's ass not winning a nail biter.  Where is the big boy ball?

 

Both Chris Thompson and Matt Jones are averaging over 4 yards per carry.  That's plenty to run big boy run control football if that's truly what they want to do.  Matt Jones seemed to be able to run at will in that last drive in the 4th quarter to kill clock even though the Giants knew it was coming.  If that's what you want more of I don't think that's a question posed to Scot McCloughan but to Sean McVay.  Jay was a pass first guy in Cincy and he's a pass first guy here.  Every now and again he talks about wanting to run the ball more but in a recent interview (trying to recall from whom, I think it was Cooley) when pushed he said he's ok for passing the ball a lot, whatever it takes.  Not saying Jay is right or wrong but philosophy wise he doesn't strike me to be a run first guy like Shanny or Gibbs.   That's not about Mccloughan. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/if-redskins-players-are-calling-the-shots-sticking-together-was-the-right-call/2016/09/25/222273a2-8358-11e6-ac72-a29979381495_story.html

There was tight end Vernon Davis, gesturing at the sideline and demanding the coaches to stick with the running game during what turned out to be the game-winning drive. “Again!” Davis insisted, tired of the cute calls and determined to keep stomach-punching the Giants. So the coaches obliged him.

“We kind of wanted to throw it,” Gruden said, “but they wanted to run it.”

 

[Burgold]

I hope that the offfensive line of Moses Scherff Long/Sullivan Arie and Williams augurs a return to a more tough style. That's a bigger and more imposing line. It should be better at the run. Arie's supposedly a tough, very strong player who's good at man blocking, but poor at movement/zone. Long and Sullivan are both bigger and probably stronger than Lich though Lich might be a better technician.

The question is really whether Vernon Davis takes over play calling again. Gruden hated the run in Cinci and that's rubbing off on McVay here. As for the D... we moved away from tough guy football. Some of it is the players, but a lot of it is the play calling. This team wants to bend, wants to give up long drives, that means they are wanting to play soft. Bend but not break is soft.

[MartinC]

21 minutes ago, Burgold said:

As for the D... we moved away from tough guy football. Some of it is the players, but a lot of it is the play calling. This team wants to bend, wants to give up long drives, that means they are wanting to play soft. Bend but not break is soft.

I think the whole NFL (with the odd exception) has moved away from 'Big Boy" defensive football. The NFL is a passing league. NFL defenses have been increasingly built to stop the pass. The emphasis is on getting guys who can rush the passer or cover. Stopping the run is still important but its not a point of emphasis. Speed has become the thing defenses are built around. Teams are in nickel 60%+ of snaps as they match up to offensive formations with 3 or more receivers being pretty much the norm.

I expect to see NFL offenses counter this by re emphasising the running game. Start running at these smaller faster defensive fronts.

I would agree with any argument saying we need to be running the ball more and physically imposing ourselves on offense. I think we have the horses to do that up front on offense. But thats a conversation to be had with Jay and Sean about game planning and play calling not the front office about drafting IMO.

Defense is another question. I think we need to inject talent into that front 7 next offseason.

[Veryoldschool]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Both Chris Thompson and Matt Jones are averaging over 4 yards per carry.  That's plenty to run big boy run control football if that's truly what they want to do.  Matt Jones seemed to be able to run at will in that last drive in the 4th quarter to kill clock even though the Giants knew it was coming.  If that's what you want more of I don't think that's a question posed to Scot McCloughan but to Sean McVay.  Jay was a pass first guy in Cincy and he's a pass first guy here.  Every now and again he talks about wanting to run the ball more but in a recent interview (trying to recall from whom, I think it was Cooley) when pushed he said he's ok for passing the ball a lot, whatever it takes.  Not saying Jay is right or wrong but philosophy wise he doesn't strike me to be a run first guy like Shanny or Gibbs.   That's not about Mccloughan. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/if-redskins-players-are-calling-the-shots-sticking-together-was-the-right-call/2016/09/25/222273a2-8358-11e6-ac72-a29979381495_story.html

There was tight end Vernon Davis, gesturing at the sideline and demanding the coaches to stick with the running game during what turned out to be the game-winning drive. “Again!” Davis insisted, tired of the cute calls and determined to keep stomach-punching the Giants. So the coaches obliged him.

“We kind of wanted to throw it,” Gruden said, “but they wanted to run it.”

 

 

Interesting article.  They need to not only run it more but to run it with more authority.  

[justice98]

26 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Interesting article.  They need to not only run it more but to run it with more authority.  

Gruden's comment at the end said it all.  It should be no shock the run game has been underwhelming in his tenure since he has no real committment to it.  He likely doesnt emphasize it in practice and he has to be dragged kicking and screaming to do it in games.

[Veryoldschool]

They ran better although did not commit to it enough in my view.   Jones had a few holes and ran with some authority.  We need to see more commitment to the run and the horrible tackling needs to improve.  I got to credit the defense for the two strips and and interception. The defense wasn't able to control the Browns running game or put any pressure on Kessler who when given time was very effective.  Turnovers saved the day.  But at least they managed to run a little today. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

8 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

They ran better although did not commit to it enough in my view.  

27 pass plays, 26 run plays...

[skinny21]

Yeah, definitely a step forward for the run game - it was nice to see some sort of commitment to it.  

 

The poor tackling though... ugh.  I knew the Browns ground game would give us problems, but that was really bad.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

27 pass plays, 26 run plays...

Would that be balance? T

[DogofWar1]

Just now, Califan007 said:

27 pass plays, 26 run plays...

Good distribution, 50-50 feels about right.  I don't think either aspect of our offense is good enough to eclipse the other at this point.

One thing I will say is good, the trendline.  Week 1 we got blown out.  Week 2 we lost a very winnable game.  Week 3 we won a very loseable game.  Week 4, we won a game that was still loseable, but won it by a decent margin nonetheless.

We sandwiched a bad 2nd and mediocre 3rd in between very nice 1st and 4th quarters.

I do expect the trendline to level off and recede somewhat, but we're 2-2 and aspects of the team are moving in the right direction.

[Veryoldschool]

I hope they commit to the run next week also and even more so.  I hope this wasn't we can run on the Browns 1 day thing.  

I don't know what they can do about the DL being bullied up the middle but they can and should address half ass tackling.

[Veryoldschool]

Some further thoughts after a day’s reflection:

1.      I hope the Skins continue to work on their running game and commit to achieving the balance of run and pass we saw against the Browns becomes the norm.  I hope it wasn’t just because they thought they could run against the Browns.  Watching the game I wanted them to run even more than they did and was somewhat surprised the number of run and pass attempts was almost identical.  Last season they began run heavy and became pass heavy as Kirk and the receivers got hot.  This year they began very pass heavy and I hope they settle on a 50/50 mix of run and pass.

2.       A strong run game would be the best possible help this year to what looks like an over matched DL.  Fresh over matched defensive linemen are much more effective than gassed ones so unless they find a way to radically improve the performance of the DL they need to hang on to the ball and shorten games by running it well themselves and when they are on the field they have to tackle.  The Skins made the Cleveland running backs look like Jimmy Brown with all the missed tackles.

3.    The tackling issues SHOULD be correctable and heads should roll if that isn’t rectified.  It is one thing to not be strong enough up front to hold up against the Steelers and Cowboys this year the Packers last year but they just have to make tackles.  It is impossible to win football games at ANY level with the kind of tackling the Skins exhibited yesterday.  Quality backs are going to win some of the match ups and break some tackles but the Skins did a pathetic job of getting them on the ground yesterday.

4.       The stripping of ball carriers saved the day.  I got to give credit for that and I presume the coaches that have probably been stressing it.  Norman's pick was also a great play but without the strips the game is lost given the problems they had tackling.

5.       Kirk was releasing too quickly during the Cowboys game and held on to the ball too long a couple of times yesterday but by and large he is continuing to play well.

6.       The OL made some holes yesterday!  A couple times even I even could have picked up a few yards.  I don’t know if it was the Browns front or better execution by the OL but after dogging them so much I want to give credit for a substantially better showing.

7.       Jones did a nice job of running hard and elusively once beyond the line to make the most of those rare big openings.

8.       I’d still like to see the Skins open up games with a smaller more nimble back that is better able than Jones to squirt thru wherever the gap happens to open up.  Jones packs more wallop at the hole but if it isn’t where he is expecting it I think he is less effective than a smaller back could be.  Latter in the game a big back like Jones is more effective when the defense is tired.  I like to see them give Kelly some reps early in the game to see if he can do a better than Jones when the line is having problems creating holes.

9.       The punting and kicking are a real strengths both specialists are doing a great job.  I can’t remember the Skins having it this good.

10.   My preseason expectation of a 10-6 or 11-5 division title year looks really optimistic now but championship teams improve during the course of a season.  The Skins improved a lot during the course of 2015.  Hopefully the 2016 team will improve substantially as well but it will have to be other people that make the leap.  I don’t think Cousins and his receivers are going to do any better than last year if they do that well so other players/units are going be where the Skins find the improvement.  I think it has to come from the OL and running backs, the run game has to become at least mediocre to have a shot at a .500 or better season in my view.  The DL is what it is and even with a decent job of tackling the best teams will work over the front 7 of Washington so the Skins need to get their own running game geared up so they can hog the ball and not expose the DL.

[skinny21]

Interesting - Redskins (tied with Steelers) have just 5 teams ahead of them in yards per carry.  

 

Also interesting - two teams are giving up more yards per carry than them... (kind of amazing really).  

[Veryoldschool]

12 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Interesting - Redskins (tied with Steelers) have just 5 teams ahead of them in yards per carry.  

 

Also interesting - two teams are giving up more yards per carry than them... (kind of amazing really).  

 

Good catch skinny21.  I had to check the stats myself to believe it, you are right the Redskins average 4.4 per attempt good for #6. Sundays game helped Washington to elevate their standing to #20 in total yards rushing up from #28 the week before.  Yards of any sort are tough to come by against the total defense league leading Ravens. I hope they make a commitment to run on Sunday to present a balance attack against Baltimore and don't revert to chuck and duck.

The Skins rushing defense stats are really pathetic and the pass defense is also terrible.  By any measure Washington is terrible accept for fumbles recovered, DC is tied for first with 5.  The turnovers against NY and Cleveland save Washington from being 0-4 and in a major funk. Baltimore's offense has been struggling and must view a date with the Washington defense as a slump buster.

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I don't want what Scot promised. I don't want a ground and pound style of football. That's boring to me. The Harbaugh era 49ers were boring as hell to me offensively until they let Kaep run around and be exciting. Even then though, they were still pretty boring. 

That's not to say I want to neglect the lines. I just want to be a high scoring passing attack with an aggressive pressure defense.

Being a run first team is such a "meh" to me. If we are going to lose id rather do it entertainingly by passing the ball around and getting after the QB on defense or playing physical. When I hear the Sm comments I think what he is referring to is a ground and bound conservative O with a defense similar to his time in SF or Seattle. I'd sign up for the D any time, just not the O

[TheCoach22]

On September 27, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Veryoldschool said:

A visit to the team stat page is informative.  If you look at the team stats on the link below it is very clear that the Skins are running what Buddy Ryan used to refer to a "chuck and duck offense".  Our opponents average 123 yards on the ground to our 75, that 48 yard differential tells the tale on who is controlling the line of scrimmage and the game.  Average yards per rushing attempt for the Skins is 3.8, which is higher than I frankly expected since Jones seems to get 2 or less half the time.  He had a productive stretch near the end of the Giants game but much too often his hips barely gross the line of scrimmage.  Our opponents average 4.6 or almost a yard more per attempt.

In 3 games the Skins have picked up a grand total of 12 rushing first downs, only 4 per game.  Our opponents have picked up 25 first downs on the ground, more than double.  It is very hard to win football games if your too weak to run and too weak to stop the run. Scot said he believes in big boy ball but it looks like an empty boast at this point.  Lots of talented, big, young linemen were on the board last year and he chose an WR and a safety instead.  If Scot had selected a couple of upgrades at center and guard instead a superfluous WR and a safety in the 2016 draft things could be looking a whole lot brighter.

We have 11 FGs to our opponents 5.  It is tough for 1 dimensional times to score in the redzone.  It took 5 FGs, 300 yards of passing, 2 touchdowns, a 106 QBR and no less than 7 scoring drives to barely eek out a 2 point victory over what I think is a mediocre team.  If you have 7 scoring drives you should be kicking somebody's ass not winning a nail biter.  Where is the big boy ball?

Cherry picked stats that look better after the Cleveland game, no doubt.

Our D stinks. We gave up third and shorts to Pitt, third and long to Cleveland and everything in-between against Dallas and NYG. The talent we have, Barry doesn't use properly (if he locks Norman on WR1 weeks one and two we are 3-1 right now). Coaching and talent issues, that Scot will address but he needs some time.

Offensively, I think GMSM has built an elite group of players... Playing to current strengths while building for the future. Our offensive playcalling, especially in the redzone the first two weeks was terrible. We've recalibrated and look settled, I believe. A couple of rushing TDs and actually throwing to Reed instead of using him as a creative decoy has brought good results the last six quarters.

Sunday, the OL started five players all drafted by this team, we have not said that since the Hogs. All five were under 30, we have never been able to say that. The middle averaged 325, that is big boy FB. Kory stinks, which is why GMSM eyed Ryan Kelly and also tried to trade for C before the season started. (We lost two OL against the Giants, moved an all-pro LT inside and ran the ball down their throats in the 4th quarter. Pretty impressive). I hope we stay with Long and let our top 7 guys on the OL grow together for a long time. 

We aren't going to be Gibbs 3.0 with a 32-year old OC, a former QB as a HC, and our talent and depth at WR and TE. Nor should we be. Nor is that realistic in today's NFL. Scot wants to be able to run it late in games and late in the season. Last two weeks, we have.

Scot will get to the D next. Preston and Kerrigan have been terrible this year, which doesn't help. He bet on Junior getting right, and that didn't happen. The DL is bad, for now. I think GMSM knew the LB were a mess when he got here... Is Perry Riley playing where he landed? Is Keenan? Not so much. He found Foster on the street and the guy has been okay. Compton is a JAG. He drafted a playmaker for that unit who made a play against the Giants. Let's see.

If our fifth rounder this year pans out, how does that change this conversation? If Fuller starts down the road? If we draft eight defensive players next year? Point, way too early. Scot is the best thing to happen to the Redskins since Jack Kent Cooke died. Just a fact. Enjoy watching him do his thing.

[crabbypatty]

I thought the run game looked pretty good this weekend, Jones seems to be recognizing how to use his blocking and set a few up and actually found cutbacks a few times, an encouraging outing for him to be sure.

Hopefully he continues to grow and learn, I think this week was a good learning experience for him.

I hope the commitment to the run stays.. there is no way this team will win games in november and december with as many as we have on the road without being able and willing to run as much as they pass.

[ColonialWBSkinsFan]

1 hour ago, TheCoach22 said:

Cherry picked stats that look better after the Cleveland game, no doubt.

Our D stinks. We gave up third and shorts to Pitt, third and long to Cleveland and everything in-between against Dallas and NYG. The talent we have, Barry doesn't use properly (if he locks Norman on WR1 weeks one and two we are 3-1 right now). Coaching and talent issues, that Scot will address but he needs some time.

Offensively, I think GMSM has built an elite group of players... Playing to current strengths while building for the future. Our offensive playcalling, especially in the redzone the first two weeks was terrible. We've recalibrated and look settled, I believe. A couple of rushing TDs and actually throwing to Reed instead of using him as a creative decoy has brought good results the last six quarters.

Sunday, the OL started five players all drafted by this team, we have not said that since the Hogs. All five were under 30, we have never been able to say that. The middle averaged 325, that is big boy FB. Kory stinks, which is why GMSM eyed Ryan Kelly and also tried to trade for C before the season started. (We lost two OL against the Giants, moved an all-pro LT inside and ran the ball down their throats in the 4th quarter. Pretty impressive). I hope we stay with Long and let our top 7 guys on the OL grow together for a long time. 

We aren't going to be Gibbs 3.0 with a 32-year old OC, a former QB as a HC, and our talent and depth at WR and TE. Nor should we be. Nor is that realistic in today's NFL. Scot wants to be able to run it late in games and late in the season. Last two weeks, we have.

Scot will get to the D next. Preston and Kerrigan have been terrible this year, which doesn't help. He bet on Junior getting right, and that didn't happen. The DL is bad, for now. I think GMSM knew the LB were a mess when he got here... Is Perry Riley playing where he landed? Is Keenan? Not so much. He found Foster on the street and the guy has been okay. Compton is a JAG. He drafted a playmaker for that unit who made a play against the Giants. Let's see.

If our fifth rounder this year pans out, how does that change this conversation? If Fuller starts down the road? If we draft eight defensive players next year? Point, way too early. Scot is the best thing to happen to the Redskins since Jack Kent Cooke died. Just a fact. Enjoy watching him do his thing.

 

Word.... maybe the best post in this entire thread...  keep the faith

 

 

[Veryoldschool]

10 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

I don't want what Scot promised. I don't want a ground and pound style of football. That's boring to me. The Harbaugh era 49ers were boring as hell to me offensively until they let Kaep run around and be exciting. Even then though, they were still pretty boring. 

That's not to say I want to neglect the lines. I just want to be a high scoring passing attack with an aggressive pressure defense.

Being a run first team is such a "meh" to me. If we are going to lose id rather do it entertainingly by passing the ball around and getting after the QB on defense or playing physical. When I hear the Sm comments I think what he is referring to is a ground and bound conservative O with a defense similar to his time in SF or Seattle. I'd sign up for the D any time, just not the O

It is good to know what you want and except for the pressure defense you seek you've been getting it.  I like old school grind it out dominate football because it wins championships.  Really tough defenses and powerful run games tend to show up rain or shine.

[Veryoldschool]

10 hours ago, TheCoach22 said:

Cherry picked stats that look better after the Cleveland game, no doubt.

Our D stinks. We gave up third and shorts to Pitt, third and long to Cleveland and everything in-between against Dallas and NYG. The talent we have, Barry doesn't use properly (if he locks Norman on WR1 weeks one and two we are 3-1 right now). Coaching and talent issues, that Scot will address but he needs some time.

Offensively, I think GMSM has built an elite group of players... Playing to current strengths while building for the future. Our offensive playcalling, especially in the redzone the first two weeks was terrible. We've recalibrated and look settled, I believe. A couple of rushing TDs and actually throwing to Reed instead of using him as a creative decoy has brought good results the last six quarters.

Sunday, the OL started five players all drafted by this team, we have not said that since the Hogs. All five were under 30, we have never been able to say that. The middle averaged 325, that is big boy FB. Kory stinks, which is why GMSM eyed Ryan Kelly and also tried to trade for C before the season started. (We lost two OL against the Giants, moved an all-pro LT inside and ran the ball down their throats in the 4th quarter. Pretty impressive). I hope we stay with Long and let our top 7 guys on the OL grow together for a long time. 

We aren't going to be Gibbs 3.0 with a 32-year old OC, a former QB as a HC, and our talent and depth at WR and TE. Nor should we be. Nor is that realistic in today's NFL. Scot wants to be able to run it late in games and late in the season. Last two weeks, we have.

Scot will get to the D next. Preston and Kerrigan have been terrible this year, which doesn't help. He bet on Junior getting right, and that didn't happen. The DL is bad, for now. I think GMSM knew the LB were a mess when he got here... Is Perry Riley playing where he landed? Is Keenan? Not so much. He found Foster on the street and the guy has been okay. Compton is a JAG. He drafted a playmaker for that unit who made a play against the Giants. Let's see.

If our fifth rounder this year pans out, how does that change this conversation? If Fuller starts down the road? If we draft eight defensive players next year? Point, way too early. Scot is the best thing to happen to the Redskins since Jack Kent Cooke died. Just a fact. Enjoy watching him do his thing.

 

I like you hopeful tone.  As for your first sentence, the stats are cherry picked they are what they are at that time.  I am pleased the Skins put a lot more emphasis on the run during the Browns game and I hope it wasn't a one off because they thought they matched up better against the Browns.

Before the 2015 season I posted here I wanted to see Cousins get 16 starts and was thrilled that is what they did.  After the Giants game I started this thread expressing my desire to see big boy football and a commitment to running the football by coincidence the Skins rush 26 times for 145 during the next game. I ****ed about the sloppy tackling this week dare I hope for an improvement?

It was a huge increase of rushing yardage this week and a great game rushing stat given the best rushing teams in the league average 149 yards per game.  I knew they were doing better during the game but I was surprised the rushed 26 times.  

They came into the Browns averaging 75 ypg and nearly doubled their average.  Their average gain per attempt was 5.6 after averaging 3.1 per attempt for 3 games.  Once again I hope this effort and success is not a 1 off but rather the start of a commitment to run the ball.  Obviously it is going to be difficult to run or pass against Baltimore but I hope they stay committed to the run.

If they keep plugging away on the ground to keep the offense balanced and TACKLE this week I'll be encouraged even if they lose.  I'd take a sloppy win and over a well executed loss but it would be a big positive going forward if they commit to a ground game against Baltimore also and improve their tackling.  I don't think the offense can carry the team against the best defense in the league so the defense has to tackle soundly for the Skins to have a chance.

 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I like you hopeful tone.  As for your first sentence, the stats are cherry picked they are what they are at that time.  I am pleased the Skins put a lot more emphasis on the run during the Browns game and I hope it wasn't a one off because they thought they matched up better against the Browns.

 

We ran the ball 30 times in an away win against the Giants. So its at least a two off.

[pjfootballer]

First 2 games combined: 29 rushing attempts.  3 by the QB.  2 losses.

Last 2 games:  30 and 26 rushes.  56 rushes (28 a game).  2 wins.

 

Continue to try and establish the run.  In today's NFL you will get more of a 60-40 (pass to run) ratio, but as long as we attempt at least 25 rushes a game, we'll be OK.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

 

On 10/2/2016 at 4:18 PM, Veryoldschool said:

They ran better although did not commit to it enough in my view.   

 

On 10/2/2016 at 4:24 PM, Califan007 said:

27 pass plays, 26 run plays...

 

Why do I get the feeling this quote from 1906 was Veryoldschool?

"There has been no team that has proved that the forward pass is anything but a doubtful, dangerous play to be used only in the last extremity."

[Veryoldschool]

3 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

First 2 games combined: 29 rushing attempts.  3 by the QB.  2 losses.

Last 2 games:  30 and 26 rushes.  56 rushes (28 a game).  2 wins.

 

Continue to try and establish the run.  In today's NFL you will get more of a 60-40 (pass to run) ratio, but as long as we attempt at least 25 rushes a game, we'll be OK.

Amen, multi dimensional teams win.  The Skins won when they doubled their running attempts and in the Browns games nearly doubled their 75 YPG average with a whopping 145 yars and 10 first downs.  Stick to this formula and ACTUALLY LEARN TO TACKLE and this year might be fun, no Super Bowl but fun!