Where Is The Big Boy Football We Were Promised?

[Veryoldschool]

It is only the second year but after watching Washington's offensive and defensive lines get they butts whipped by 3 teams in succession I conclude that the Skins are still a soft finesse team that is wholly dependent on its quarterback and receivers and Scot bares some responsibility now.  Scot drafted Scherff with first round pick in 2015 giving substance to his promise to bring big boy football to Washington.  Scherff has worked out fine but he was the only major investment on the line in 2 years.  Scot invested a lot this past season in the defensive backfield and spent the 2016 first round pick on a WR.

As of this week the Skins are ranked 3rd in passing offense, 28th in rushing offense, 25th in rushing defense and 26th and passing defense.  I am disappointed with the commitment to turning the Skins into a physical team.  The linemen on the squad don't seem to be developing as evidenced by the domination by Pittsburgh, Dallas and New York.  Scot miscalculated, this team needs bigger, stronger guys upfront to help this team become balanced and a real championship contender more that another WR.  Doctson may workout as may the other acquisitions but the team really needed lineman more than another receiver so 2016 is a wasted opportunity.

[Koolblue13]

I think someone forgot that all football players are football players and physical skill sets do actually matter a lot.

[Alexa]

It's going to take some time. This team seems like it's built from the outside in. Only year two for SM.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

It's possible that the last drive of the game was a turning point.  They really played big-boy football, and Matt Jones jammed the football right down the midget's throats.  

With 1 3rd and 3 exception, they completely dominated the midgets on the final drive.  

[TysonM]

Scot would have taken Center Ryan Kelly if he was still on the board, but we didn't get that lucky [and our draft position was not that favorable].  I have no problem with the WR pick as it does reflect an eye on the future as opposed to making everything about winning this season.

[illone]

Too early, Scot is still building.  Concrete is very soft until it cures..

[Veryoldschool]

24 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It's possible that the last drive of the game was a turning point.  They really played big-boy football, and Matt Jones jammed the football right down the midget's throats.  

With 1 3rd and 3 exception, they completely dominated the midgets on the final drive.  

 

I wish this was the case but I don't think so.  I believe Jones is poorly matched with our offensive line because Jones is a big, slow starter that needs to have the hole were he expects it to be successful.  At the end of a game when the defense is tired liked the Giants were yesterday Jones was effective but earlier in the game when the defense was fresh our OL was unable to open the hole were they intended to and Jones was useless.

I think the Skins would be better off using Kelly or even Mac Brown early in the game instead of Jones.  Behind a powerful offensive line Jones would be the superior choice because of his size but with a weak line a smaller nimble back who could squirt to were the gap develops  like Kelly or Brown might be more effective.

[Aireskoi]

42 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

... Scot miscalculated, this team needs bigger, stronger guys upfront to help this team become balanced and a real championship contender more that another WR.  Doctson may workout as may the other acquisitions but the team really needed lineman more than another receiver so 2016 is a wasted opportunity.

I agree based on my limited knowledge of the situation.  I wish I knew more, but that's for a Jay Gruden interview someday when he's sitting home like Mike Shanahan I guess.  I find it hard to believe that Scot didn't believe what he said about needing big men to win in December, so I must be missing some info.

Also, I can't agree with any idea that says a WR is building for the future, but a NT/DT/DE is somehow not.

I mentioned (half joking) in another thread that Dunbar 6'2 - 203 could catch fades if that's so important, nothing against Doctson, while they build a D'line.  WR's are often found later in the draft.

[William Barbour]

It's pretty obvious that Scot is building the team to fit Gruden philosophy. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I wish this was the case but I don't think so.  I believe Jones is poorly matched with our offensive line because Jones is a big, slow starter that needs to have the hole were he expects it to be successful.  At the end of a game when the defense is tired liked the Giants were yesterday Jones was effective but earlier in the game when the defense was fresh our OL was unable to open the hole were they intended to and Jones was useless.

I think the Skins would be better off using Kelly or even Mac Brown early in the game instead of Jones.  Behind a powerful offensive line Jones would be the superior choice because of his size but with a weak line a smaller nimble back who could squirt to were the gap develops  like Kelly or Brown might be more effective.

I don't think he's slow to the hole, I think he's slow out of a cut.  He's got a lot of top-end speed. 

If you hadned the ball to CT 15 times a game, you could do that twice, and then you'd be signing a new RB.  Mac Brown is a preseason crush.  If he was as good as fans think he is, he'd be playing.  He's not.  

3 minutes ago, William Barbour said:

It's pretty obvious that Scot is building the team to fit Gruden philosophy. 

Which is what you'd want.  But how so?

[Veryoldschool]

8 minutes ago, William Barbour said:

It's pretty obvious that Scot is building the team to fit Gruden philosophy. 

 An interesting observation.  I don't know if you are right or not but SM's stated priorities mapped to his 2015 selection of Scherrf  but not his investments in 2016 hence my complaint. 

[Veryoldschool]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don't think he's slow to the hole, I think he's slow out of a cut.  He's got a lot of top-end speed. 

If you hadned the ball to CT 15 times a game, you could do that twice, and then you'd be signing a new RB.  Mac Brown is a preseason crush.  If he was as good as fans think he is, he'd be playing.  He's not.  

Which is what you'd want.  But how so?

 

I've seen Jones struggle to get beyond the line of scrimmage enough times to conclude he is poorly paired with the OL in place, he might be great behind the Dallas, Pittsburgh or Green Bay offensive lines but since the Skins are unable to force open a hole where they intend Jones is ineffective.  We may be in agreement, Jones has to cut to find the gap that actually emerges and he's too slow cutting to be opportunistic with the gaps that appear.

Kelly's active give him a shot at being the 1st half back, Jones is ineffective.  As for Brown you've never seen him in run in an NFL game behind the starting line so while you have an opinion on the subject you don't have a basis in fact.  Brown seemed very decisive and nimble out of the backfield which is what I think is needed to make get a ground game behind this weak OL.  They should give Kelly and Brown a shot to see if they can help add some much needed balance to the offense.

 

[NickyJ]

Seeing Doctson play in Dallas eased my mind about that pick a bit, even though it feels kind of liked they're forcing the ball to him, to prove he was a good pick. (Those fades though....) Even so, I am still really disappointed that we haven't moved on from Lichtensteiger. He's always been average to mediocre to me, but yesterday seemed like he was getting steamrolled. Not for sacks, just for strong pressure that got in Cousins' face.

I know people said that LeRibeus was kind of okay in his services last year, but I can't believe Lich, Ribs, and Reiter were the only options we had the entire offseason. Even just for a temporary band-aid until we can draft/sign the player we really wanted would have been better than what we have now.

I'm no expert, but I do recall that Montgomery was our center until 2014, when our running game really dropped off. Could Lich at center be a part of our mediocre running game, beyond just scheme?

[Burgold]

23 minutes ago, William Barbour said:

It's pretty obvious that Scot is building the team to fit Gruden philosophy. 

This is what I'm thinking too. Gruden is clearly a pass first kind of guy. He was at Cinci and is here too. He just believes in airing it out. McCloughan is trying to make Gruden successful. I do think that the BPA approach to the draft bit us a little in the butt in the short term when it came to the defensive line. 

Doctson, Cravens, and Fuller all look like they have the potential to be long term contributors and that's great, but we really needed some up front beef on the D line. We're using stop gaps and one year guys there. I doubt that is what either Barry or McCloughan truly desire, but it's our reality. We designed a really strong corner back, have interesting potential at lb (Kerrigan, Smith, Compton, Foster, Spaight, and Cravens really is a pretty good group), but so little up front.

It makes us vulnerable to the run. It makes it tough to play big boy football because our linebackers and safeties keep getting walloped by much larger o linemen.

If this is by design it is not a good design. I also think defensively Barry is timid. He plays not to lose. He runs a bend but don't break system that gets broken way, way, way too much!

[bedlamVR]

Isn't this the same

"Waaah   we didn't take a defensive lineman / offensive lineman regardless of the value at every single opportunity and I cannot get past it, not even within 24 hours of a gut it out win and I want everyone else's wheaties to be pissed on because no one should feel good about the win because waaaaah we didn't draft a defensive line man ... and I know way more than anyone waaah "

'discussion' we have seen in almost every thread for the last two months and - I know I may only be talking for myself here - but I get it okay - you disagree - we get it .... move on perhaps ? 

[PlayAction]

We are going to second guess the GM all season long because with the deepest draft in DL talent in history the Skins didn't pick a single one of the known players.  Instead of picking up more OL talent the Skins picked a WR, a hybrid safety/LB, and a CB.  So far the only contributor of the top three picks is the hybrid safety/LB.  Most fans are cynical about WR picks because we've been burned repeatedly by prior failed WR/TE draft selections.  I'm hoping Doctson overcomes his Achilles issue and can contribute in year 2.  As long as the other WR/TEs are healthy there's no reason to play Doctson other than to gain experience.  So basically this draft was all about the future and minimal benefit to the present.  That's going to be frustrating with the obvious needs on the OL and DL.  

[Destino]

6 minutes ago, bedlamVR said:

'discussion' we have seen in almost every thread for the last two months and - I know I may only be talking for myself here - but I get it okay - you disagree - we get it .... move on perhaps ? 

We've been having the the discussion about drafting more lineman for a great deal longer than 2 months. 

[illone]

 2 months?  Try 2 decades more like it.

[Veryoldschool]

59 minutes ago, PlayAction said:

We are going to second guess the GM all season long because with the deepest draft in DL talent in history the Skins didn't pick a single one of the known players.  Instead of picking up more OL talent the Skins picked a WR, a hybrid safety/LB, and a CB.  So far the only contributor of the top three picks is the hybrid safety/LB.  Most fans are cynical about WR picks because we've been burned repeatedly by prior failed WR/TE draft selections.  I'm hoping Doctson overcomes his Achilles issue and can contribute in year 2.  As long as the other WR/TEs are healthy there's no reason to play Doctson other than to gain experience.  So basically this draft was all about the future and minimal benefit to the present.  That's going to be frustrating with the obvious needs on the OL and DL.  

I agree completely.  I had so much faith in SM that since he stood pat on the lines during the draft that he saw some progress on the existing roster.  My false hopes were shattered by the manhandling during the first 3 games now I really question his commitment to big boy ball.  He abandoned his concept with his 2016 draft.

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

Doctson, Cravens, and Fuller all look like they have the potential to be long term contributors and that's great, but we really needed some up front beef on the D line. We're using stop gaps and one year guys there. I doubt that is what either Barry or McCloughan truly desire, but it's our reality. We designed a really strong corner back, have interesting potential at lb (Kerrigan, Smith, Compton, Foster, Spaight, and Cravens really is a pretty good group), but so little up front.

 Amen!

[skins4eva]

That Cravens INT (wearing Sean Taylor's rookie number no less) was as big boy as it gets. 

[ILikeBilly]

Cravens looks pretty good for a rook.  Certainly made the game winning play yesterday.  If Fuller develops into a starter, that becomes a good pick.  As for Doctson, we are already seeing DJax getting beat up a little.  At this rate, I am expecting him to miss a game or two at anytime this season.  I hope not.  If DJax does miss some time, I fully expect Doctson to get a lot more playing time.  Being a first rounder, we need him to reach all-star level to justify the pick, but not this season. 

I was hoping for Kelly at center, but he was gone.  I was hoping for interior oline or dline.  We got Matt Ioannidis, so we add some beef to the dline.  I expect him to be moved to the 53 man roster at some point this year and I expect he will improve our team.  I have no clue what to do with LG and C positions. 

[Veryoldschool]

17 minutes ago, skins4eva said:

That Cravens INT (wearing Sean Taylor's rookie number no less) was as big boy as it gets. 

 

Clearly a nice play but it doesn't alter the unfavorable balance of power at the line of scrimmage.  The 2016 Redskins have been bullied at the line of scrimmage by their first 3 opponents.  SM said the Skins were going to play big boy ball and not only has he failed to make progress in this direction he abandoned it in his second year as evidenced by his draft and free agency acquisitions.  Where is the big boy football he promised?

[justice98]

3 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

It is only the second year but after watching Washington's offensive and defensive lines get they butts whipped by 3 teams in succession I conclude that the Skins are still a soft finesse team that is wholly dependent on its quarterback and receivers and Scot bares some responsibility now.  Scot drafted Scherff with first round pick in 2015 giving substance to his promise to bring big boy football to Washington.  Scherff has worked out fine but he was the only major investment on the line in 2 years.  Scot invested a lot this past season in the defensive backfield and spent the 2016 first round pick on a WR.

As of this week the Skins are ranked 3rd in passing offense, 28th in rushing offense, 25th in rushing defense and 26th and passing defense.  I am disappointed with the commitment to turning the Skins into a physical team.  The linemen on the squad don't seem to be developing as evidenced by the domination by Pittsburgh, Dallas and New York.  Scot miscalculated, this team needs bigger, stronger guys upfront to help this team become balanced and a real championship contender more that another WR.  Doctson may workout as may the other acquisitions but the team really needed lineman more than another receiver so 2016 is a wasted opportunity.

Can't disagree with anything said here.  

I get Scott taking Dotson as a move for next year and beyond, but the defense is going to need several drafts of restocking with good young talent upfront.  The sooner that starts, the better.

[skins4eva]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Clearly a nice play but it doesn't alter the unfavorable balance of power at the line of scrimmage.  The 2016 Redskins have been bullied at the line of scrimmage by their first 3 opponents.  SM said the Skins were going to play big boy ball and not only has he failed to make progress in this direction he abandoned it in his second year as evidenced by his draft and free agency acquisitions.  Where is the big boy football he promised?

 

I get the complaints re: the D-line. But right now, we are one of the best if not the best pass blocking lines in the league. The running game seems hampered less by o-line play than by a lack of commitment to the running game and a lack of creativity in the running game. Almost all our runs seem like btw the tackle plays. Very few tosses or power runs with pulling guards from what I've seen. And never any fullback/I-formation looks. That to me is the really disappointing part. I get that we have enough weapons to not need to rely on play action, but I think we'd really be killing people on the offensive side if we could establish the play action. 

[Veryoldschool]

24 minutes ago, skins4eva said:

 

I get the complaints re: the D-line. But right now, we are one of the best if not the best pass blocking lines in the league. The running game seems hampered less by o-line play than by a lack of commitment to the running game and a lack of creativity in the running game. Almost all our runs seem like btw the tackle plays. Very few tosses or power runs with pulling guards from what I've seen. And never any fullback/I-formation looks. That to me is the really disappointing part. I get that we have enough weapons to not need to rely on play action, but I think we'd really be killing people on the offensive side if we could establish the play action. 

 

First, I question whether the Skins have one of the best pass blocking lines in the league.  Cousins has a quick release but still took quite a pounding yesterday.  I forget the total of knockdowns and other hits they flashed on the screen yesterday but it was considerable.  Skins fans forget that the team is merely 19 or 20 games removed from the Griffin era when the accepted wisdom was the Redskins OL was a sieve.  I think they do an adequate job of protecting Cousins for the most part but Kirk won the job because he has a quick release.

As for your diagnosis about the lack of runs outside the tackles, tosses, power and I formations you may be correct but it just looks like the OL is getting stuffed and when they tried to go wide the DL pushed the OL back into the backfield.  I think we can agree the results are grossly inadequate.

If different rushing plays could help that would be wonderful because the absence of a running game is the team's biggest shortcoming.  A fresh mediocre defense is much more effective than a gassed mediocre defense.  Kirk and company can throw and catch, add block and run to the mix and they would have a shot at the division title.  I would like to substitute Kelly or Mac Brown for Jones early in the games because I think Kelly or Brown could potentially do a better job with whatever gap appears.