Does Kirk need to learn to extend plays better?

[MattFancy]

59 minutes ago, RedskinsLegacy said:

Kirk is worth more than 20 mill and better then 10 or more QB's you listed above. He has 1 season under his belt while every QB you named up there has multiple years except Wentz, and that's a damn joke calling him better than Cousins when all he has done is collect 1 victory over the lowly Browns. It sure does help a QB to have something called a running game!

No way is Kirk worth $20M. Not with only 10 good games. If you're paying a QB top QB money, you need more than that. I'd say Kirk as of right now, is a league average QB. I'd take Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Newton, Roethlisberger, Luck, Eli, Wilson, Bortles, Winston, Palmer, Stafford, Rivers, for sure over him. I'd put him in the same category right now with guys like Carr, Mariota, Dalton, Smith, Ryan, and Flacco. And probably towards the bottom part of that tier. And there's nothing wrong with being a league average QB. They can win games.

[ncr2h]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

On one of the early drives he missed a wide open Crowder badly on a 3rd down  play that should have set them up at first and goal inside the 5.  As Gruden correctly pointed out on the 3rd down where he panicked and threw it out of the end zone he had plenty of room to step out of a 3 man rush, he also had Thompson for a first down  over the midle had he extended the play with a well placed ball.  He threw 5 yards on 3rd and 6th and of course after his first pick (he had 2, should have been 3) the game was essentially over.  

 

On the other side of the field the other guy was moving in the pocket and throwing perfect TD passes all night.  Sure there were other factors but the biggest difference in that game was the play of the QBs.

I think you're memory is very selective.  Roethlisberger was far from "throwing perfect TD passes all night".  He threw one perfect TD pass - the fade to Antonio Brown.  Other than that, he had one ugly TD pass that bounced off his receivers hands because he forced it in way too quickly, and was luckily caught by another receiver rather than the 3-4 Redskins defenders in the vicinity.  His other TD was only caught because it passed between Breeland's forearms as he was attempting the interception.  If either of those plays, not to mention the BS non-fumble where the refs out-thought themselves and the numerous phantom false starts had gone the other way, we're looking at a different game.  There were also several inaccurate balls from Roethlisberger that were reeled in via nice catches by his receivers or just missed as interceptions by Redskins defenders.

Also, it's worth noting that it's far easier for the QB to operate when his RB is eating up chunks of yardage like that.  By contrast, there were 11 separate times last night where Kirk needed MORE than 10 yards to convert a first down due to either negative rushing yardage or offensive line penalties.  We had a holding or false start penalty on 5 out of our 9 drives, and we scored on 4 of those 5 drives (the 5th was ended via the non-interception that the refs didn't bother challenging).

Kirk didn't play great but he played fine.  He needs to improve, but I'm much more concerned about our running game and running defense.  If we can't fix those we aren't going to beat good teams, who are typically very well-rounded.

[Sticksboi05]

10 hours ago, SkinsHokieFan said:

 

He did against a bad Cowboys team on MNF.

The only under the lights win was against an Iggles team that had quit against Kelly. In primetime he has been small. As has Jay

 

Don't pull that bull****. Those kind of qualifiers are so lame, you're better than that. That said, the rest of your post is 100% accurate.

Kirk needs some Demerol before big games.

[Passizle]

I think Kirk has some serious flaws. However, he is a smart guy, and seems to be a hard worker. I feel he thrives in the no huddle. The team needs to open with the no huddle to get him in a rhythm... because when he is off... its REALLY off. Its effects everything for him. His footwork... his accuracy... his patience in the pocket... its really painful to watch.

Anyway... get him into a rhythm and play off those quick passes to get the run game going. Also... for the love of god... please make a trade for a good RB. No one in our roster would be a backup on other premier run teams. Jones is the best of the bunch.. and he apparently is incapable of learning how to run low. I have been saying that since we drafted him, and I am still flabbergasted that we let Morris walk... (water under the bridge now). The other guys are situational players.

 

[Taylor703]

I won't sit here and say Kirk is a bad QB, what we've seen from him as of late has been more good than bad. Last night however was rough and there's no excuse for coming away with ZERO TD passes surrounded with the kind of pass catching talent we have.

I don't expect to see Kirk perform this poorly week in and week out but there's a chance he's not a franchise guy. If these kind of performances become the norm from Kirk than we're in serious trouble. 

I don't think Jay or Sean are helping matters by completely abandoning the run game. While I understand Kirk is being paid handsomely it shouldn't be all placed on his shoulders. Jay needs to protect Kirk a lot better than this. The showing from the coaching staff overall was pathetic. 

[Alexa]

He needs to learn how to extend plays better, no question about it.

Not sure that is something you teach. You either have that skill or you don't.

[MattFancy]

The lack of running game isn't new though. We had no running game much of last season and Kirk and the offense played well. We were 20th in rushing yards last year and 28th in YPC. Yes, a run game would certainly be nice to have, but we were able to survive without one last year.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

38 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

While I understand Kirk is being paid handsomely it shouldn't be all placed on his shoulders. Jay needs to protect Kirk a lot better than this. The showing from the coaching staff overall was pathetic. 

Guys were getting open last night.  Kirk was just off, name one pass that you thought was a $20 million dollar man pass.  He was extremely basic as he's been the majority of the time he's faced a good defense.

He's shown the ability to put the ball in tight windows and hit guys in stride for major YAC, but has yet to show he can do that in big games.  To the point, that perhaps - it's actually a real thing.  That he simply becomes a statue on the big stage.

[wit33]

2 hours ago, ncr2h said:

I think you're memory is very selective.  Roethlisberger was far from "throwing perfect TD passes all night".  He threw one perfect TD pass - the fade to Antonio Brown.  Other than that, he had one ugly TD pass that bounced off his receivers hands because he forced it in way too quickly, and was luckily caught by another receiver rather than the 3-4 Redskins defenders in the vicinity.  His other TD was only caught because it passed between Breeland's forearms as he was attempting the interception.  If either of those plays, not to mention the BS non-fumble where the refs out-thought themselves and the numerous phantom false starts had gone the other way, we're looking at a different game.  There were also several inaccurate balls from Roethlisberger that were reeled in via nice catches by his receivers or just missed as interceptions by Redskins defenders.

Kirk didn't play great but he played fine.  He needs to improve, but I'm much more concerned about our running game and running defense.  If we can't fix those we aren't going to beat good teams, who are typically very well-rounded.

If you didn't see the greatness of Ben last night, I'm not sure what to tell ya. There was a significant gap between Ben and Kirk's level of play. I came into game knowing Ben was better, but was hopeful Kirk would put people on notice, that didn't happen.  

Kirk was far from fine in this game. He doesn't  need excuses, we're past those days. Penalties, run game, and game plan aside, Kirk had copability in the offenses struggles.  What's concerning for me is his play in this specific game showed regression from last year and looked a lot like the younger Kirk Cousins. Shrinking in the pocket, inconsistent footwork, nerves and lack of off schedule play making ability. 

With that said, a QB must be given opportunities to learn from setbacks in games. Kirk will be given this chance all year to do so. We know he will do all he can to grow from this experience.

 

[Destino]

There was a gap between a 2nd year starter and a two time Super Bowl veteran on the far superior team?  Why is that a surprise to anyone.  

Football is a team game and success or failure in one area affects others.  Why was Hall towards the middle of the field and closer to the line on that first TD pass to Brown?  Because the Steelers can convert easily against our front seven.  That's what the running game did for Ben, and he was throwing to the best receiver in football being covered by one player all night.  Look at his passing success and ask yourself "how much of this came when Breeland had no help?"  Two touchdowns and probably around half his total yardage.  

The Redskins offense was the passing game and nothing else.  I'll take it further, on offense and defense the only thing that worked very much at all was the passing game.  The defense forced two punts and a turnover, the Steelers scored on their six other drives (5td and 1fg).  The running game for the Redskins was abandoned early because it kept resulting in third and long, or because stupid penalties put us in passing situations.  

Yet despite the fact that the only thing the redskins could do, was pass, the opinion of many was that the loss is on Kirk Cousins.  That, IMO, is a very questionable conclusion.  

 

[MattFancy]

5 minutes ago, Destino said:

Yet despite the fact that the only thing the redskins could do, was pass, the opinion of many was that the loss is on Kirk Cousins.  That, IMO, is a very questionable conclusion.  

It's definitely not all on Kirk. He didn't play well, but neither did much of the team. I don't think many are saying it's all Kirk's fault and if they are, they're wrong.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

He just looks so timid in the pocket sometimes. It's like his mind is racing and he's so ****ing nervous in big games. Maybe he's so concerned with making the right read, he forgets about running? Whenever he scrambles out of the pocket, I just concede the play. This was such a disappointing performance. He HAS to be better. 

He looked like a deer in the headlights last night and I have not seen him look like that in a long time. 

[Alexa]

I do think that if Kirk wants to be paid like a 20 million dollar qb then he has to be able to carry the team at times during the season. He left so many plays out on the field last night. Looked like he needed more preseason work during the games.. They were dropping back in soft zones, he could have taken off a few times.  He also threw a ball into the ground on a crucial 3rd down in the red zone. The INT looked like 14 Kirk. He just has to settle down a bit against these top teams. Maybe he is who he is, good enough to get by with and be a middle of the road qb, but will never be one of the top guys..

[FrFan]

So far he doesn't deserve being paid $20 mil, he must start beating teams with positive record, then doing it on a regular basis. I guess that's why this organization didn't sign him to a long term deal. He's got playmakers with DeSean, Pierre, Jordan and good protection from his linemen, of course a good running game will help. That's only one game, wait and see how will he perform during the next 5 games.

[Cliffmark1]

I think the head coaches didn't prepare him at all for the game.  He was expecting to get rid of the ball quickly, likely because he was told they are going to blitz all night.  They didn't think to tell him to wait and be patient, get yards with your legs, let plays develop.  

I think the whole offensive game plan was a quick release plan so when they didn't blitz it made the game plan ineffective. 

I want Scot to pick a new coaching staff at the end of the year.  It was embarrassing to hear the Jon try not critique his brother, and you know what -- they deserve to be.  The first time Antonio Brown burns over the top you double team him or put norman on him, end of story.  

We gave RG3 two sets of coaches.  I'm not sure KC is the long term answer but I think we need to see him under a coaching staff picked by a football guy before we have any success and it would be premature to judge KC yet. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

13 hours ago, abdcskins said:

His lack of scrambling was puzzling. I always thought Kirk had good pocket and field awareness. He looked clueless out there tonight.

you were told he has good pocket and field awareness. He has never really shown that, and he is not creative.

He just has better pocket and field awareness than RG3, so that lead to people thinking Cousins is more than he is.

 

Still only one game, but the fact that that he has never beaten a good team should scare fans.

[William Barbour]

Kirks biggest strength is his greatest weakness.

Kirk reads defenses well and can progress through reads great, but what he lacks is the ability extending plays. The Steelers last night decided to drop 8 in coverage and Kirk would go through his reads, and the see nobody was open,  and force it to the checkdown. Even when given the opportunity to roll left or right in the pocket and let his WR get open. 

This will kill us going forward because our inability to run against nickel defenses. Teams are going to keep allowing Kirk to go through reads and hitting the check down or short pass, forcing us to long drives and waiting for us to self implode. Because we can't stop anyone on defense. 

I don't see us winning games if Kirk can't learn to extend the play a bit and make defenses pay for not pressuring him. 

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

Cousins did a good interview w grant and danny. Touched on a lot of points made in this thread. 

- Steelers dropped back and played soft zone, forcing the underneath passes

- 43 drop backs w 0 sacks may indicate that he needs to give plays more time to make something happen. Take a sack or 2 if it means a play is extended and they pick up a couple first downs

- They are going to look at why they had multiple false starts w multiple O linemen, is it something he is doing

- On the int to Shaizer, he said he saw Shazier "straighten up" but when he went to throw it he saw Shazier dropping back farther then he anticipated and basically threw it right to him.  "Straightne up" to me meant he thought Shazier was going to sit in the zone and not keep dipping deeper. I would love a Shazier, guy is a beast. 

 

 

[ncr2h]

56 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

you were told he has good pocket and field awareness. He has never really shown that, and he is not creative.

He just has better pocket and field awareness than RG3, so that lead to people thinking Cousins is more than he is.

 

Still only one game, but the fact that that he has never beaten a good team should scare fans.

This isn't necessarily directed only at you, but more to all the "he can't beat winning teamz!" people.

Can you please put together a list of QBs who you feel regularly beat winning teams?  That way, we can compare your list to the list of QBs who make $20M or more and we'll see whether this is an actual requirement.  I think it happens a lot less often than your gut is telling you, so I want you to actually go and crunch the numbers.

For example, here's a recent analysis of that argument in the defense of Matt Stafford.  By the way, I've seen his name pop up a couple of times in this thread.  Please note that Matt Stafford is a whopping 3-31 (9% winning percentage) against teams finishing with 9 or more wins.  He is 2-21 on the road vs. winning teams.

http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2016/8/30/12672496/analyzing-the-on-the-road-against-winning-teams-narrative

Here are some notable QBs around the league and their record vs. winning teams in road games (feel free to pull your own data on home games):

Tom Brady: 20-23 (47% winning pct.)

Carson Palmer: 12-31 (28%)

Brees: 11-27 (29%)

Eli: 11-34 (25%)

A-Rod: 8-20 (29%)

Russell Wilson: 7-7 (50%)

Andrew Luck: 3-10 (23%)

Kirk Cousins: 0-4 (0%)

The first takeaway from that list is that winning on the road vs. good teams is not something that is "regularly" done by anyone, unless your definition of regularly is less than 1/3 of the time (for excellent QBs).

The second takeway is that this is not a pecking order of QBs listed from best to worst.  Palmer isn't better than Brees (over their respective careers), Romo isn't better than Rodgers, etc.  Wilson has the highest winning pct among all active QBs in these games because he is the best QB in the league?  Colin Kaepernick has a higher winning percentage in these games than Andrew Luck, Phil Rivers, Eli, etc.  Is it because he's better?  No.  These guys have well-rounded teams with world class defenses.

The final takeaway is sample size.  Cousins has played 4 such games, and we're talking about something that excellent QBs are only accomplishing 1/3 of the time...how big would your sample size need to be before you could conclude that Cousins is never going to get over that hump?  Judging by how long a leash this group of "needz to beat winning teamz" fans has given Matthew Stafford, I'm guessing Cousins would just need to go 2 and 13 over his next 15 games.  Let's return to this topic (if it is even meaningful as a measure of QB skill, which I find unconvincing) after Cousins has 3 or 4 seasons as a starter under his belt.

[Bozo the kKklown]

5 minutes ago, ncr2h said:

Can you please put together a list of QBs who you feel regularly beat winning teams?

I will not take offense to this, but I never said "regularly beat winning teams." I said Cousins has NEVER beaten a winning team. Those are two different statements. He needs to beat a good team first, before we can use the word "regularly."

[Veryoldschool]

6 hours ago, dyst said:

I agree we aren't that good but I don't believe Ben would struggle here. We have weapons, Ben is legit. He certainly would get more than 1 TD. It is true, in that it's not just on Kirk. It's everything.

Cousins would have won the game for Pittsburgh.  To the extent that Washington stayed in the game it was because of Cousins, Reed and Jackson.  No Washington running game, no Washington rush defense and the Washington pass defense did not hold up in part because the defensive line could not put pressure on Rothlisberger..

Would Ben Rothlisberger. have blocked for Jones or Robinson?  The Skins had  11 carries for 47 yards I don't see how Ben would have improved that.  Would Ben have prevented the false starts and holding penalties the Washington OL committed?  I don't see how so if Ben had played for the Redskins he'd be left in all the 2nd and 3rd and longs with only the short routes open because since Pittsburgh was able to stifle the Washington rushing attack with their DL the linebackers and safties were dropping back into coverage and the DBS were deep blotting out the Washington receivers.  Is Ben Rothlisberger. better than Kirk Cousins at this point certainly, but Rothlisberger also plays on a significantly better team that can run, stop the run, defend the pass as well as pass.  Washington can only pass and catch at this point.

 

[Veryoldschool]

The Cousins has never beaten a winning team crowd are ridiculous.  Cousins has been playing on a LOSING team himself.  A team that was butt ugly in 2013-14 and ugly before a 2012 novelty act helped them steal some games before the currents can down.  The Skins can still only pass and catch, kick and punt.  The rush defensive is awful, the pass defense weak as well and forget about running the football the coaches certainly don't believe in it because they only ran it 11 times. Scot has some serious work to do building better OL and DL that don't get shoved around.  Kory Lichtensteiger  looked like he was on rollers the way the Pittsburgh nose guard moved back into Kirk. Cousins and his receivers are the strength of a mediocre team.

 

[Renegade7]

I've seen him run when he isn't thinking too much.  Dude was obsessed with not letting people down instead of just doing his job, that what got him in trouble with the picks back in the day.

[Psychedelic]

Kirk  you are who we thought you were 

[NoCalMike]

Cousins is not yet a difference maker at QB.  Will he ever be one? Who knows. The jury is not out.  Big Ben is a difference maker.  He threw a pick, nearly threw another one to Norman, fumbled a ball that could have either ended up a TD or at least set the 'Skins up in the redzone, and then threw the deflected pass into endzone that could have been a pick.  HOWEVER, did at any point after any of those instances, did he play any different? Look any different? Have the game plan altered? Nope.  He kept on keeping on like nothing mattered.   

Cousins comes off to me as the kind of QB who's level of play is 100% dictated by the talent around him.  He will play well when things are going well, when our talent exceeds the talent on the opposing team.  However I don't see him with the ability to elevate a team...(yet).  Ben went out there and made plays happen.  He wasn't hit a lot, but he certainly had to move around and buy time and extend plays in order for some of those big plays to happen.  

He is only a 2nd year starter so it's still hard to make a final judgement on what he will ultimately turn out to be, so all we can go on is what he is right now, because that's all that matters for the 2016 season.