Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[LadySkinsFan]

[Renegade7]

20 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Actually, it is illegal for a debtor to go to your CO and has been so for a number of years now.  Military deals are (in my opinion) mostly about getting customers in the door, just like any other deal.

 

Are you absolutely sure about this?  Back in '07, I used to work for a Rent-to-Own place and the manager bragged about doing this or having that option on the table (I used to get sent to Quantico to pick stuff up from people, it absolutely sucked ***).  I looked around to confirm companies could still do that, I didn't find a Doc that said "no" or "yes", just multiple forums of people in the military recommending that route.  If there's an official doc that applies to all branches saying you can or cannot do that, I'd like to see it.  Closest thing I saw was a code about military members being expected to pay back their debts, and it was written in a language that sounded enforceable.

 

Quote

DoD pays because it is a recruiting tool.  And it has actually shown to quite an effective one.  Same as the Blue Angels.  And a lot of who they target for recruitment watch sports.  So that is why they spend money on it.  NFL though gives an extremely discounted rate for the time compared to if they gave that time to Coke or something.  So the NFL is showing military appreciation.  Just not as cheaply as you would like.

 

No...no...no.  I've lost count of how many Wizards games I've watched where they had somebody up there that was in the military everybody just clapping away.  Some of our local news channels do that, too, like they are trying to show individualized appreciation.  Not only do I not agree with this method of recruitment, it comes across as not talking about what you can do for your country but the almost blank check of respect you get by ever being in the military.

 

If these companies really "appreciated" the Military, they wouldn't be charging them for that.  

 

Quote

I'm staying out of the "should you stand" argument.  It has been had already and I doubt anything productive will come out of arguing it again.  And I'm going to stay out of the "how much should you support the military" argument because I don't want to get banned.  I just wanted to clear up a few facts.

 

You being in the military, I can understand you not wanting to get in the middle of either of them.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Renegade7

[Larry]

12 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Something I think people need to remember about free speech.  The person yelling "Hey **** stick, stand up!"  is also exercising free speech.  And the 1st only prevents the government from suppressing your speech.  A business has the right to set their own rules.  Which is why I support the NFL doing this.  And everyone has a right to let the NFL know how they feel, either with voice or wallet.  I wonder how many people screaming about the NFL players would support a cashier at McDonalds saying "go back to your country, wetback" to every Hispanic looking customer as a protest to current immigration policy.  Free speech is easy to support when you agree with the position.  The measure of a person is can you support free speech when you don't agree with the message.  Free speech is a double edged sword.

 

Yeah, one way of looking at this, that I’ve come up with, is that yeah, you might have the right to express a political opinion. But do you have the right to use the NFL’s stage, to do it?  

 

Now, having thrown that out there, I do think that there needs to be limits placed on what an employer can demand that an employee do. And yes, I can see a potential problem with the notion of “if you don’t agree, then you must leave the field”. 

 

Wheres that line?  The line where the employer can’t tell the employee what to do?  I could see the argument that said line is the white stripe on the side of the field, and when you’re not on the field, you’re not “on the clock”. 

 

I could also see the argument that the line is when you’re in uniform. Or in the stadium. When you’re in the stadium, you're “on stage”. 

 

Maybe this matter should be settled at the collective collective bargaining table. 

[Mr. Sinister]

20 minutes ago, luckydevil said:

The NFL played itself

 

The Sun also rose this morning...

[TheGreatBuzz]

22 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Are you absolutely sure about this? 

"Chain of command. A debt collector may contact your chain of command without your permission but usually only to find out your location, what your phone number is, and where you work. A debt collector trying to locate you may not tell your supervisor or commander that you owe a debt. Typically, they may only speak to your supervisor or commander once to get your location information, and they can’t call if they already have this information. "

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/im-a-servicemember-and-im-being-contacted-by-a-debt-collector-about-a-debt-what-are-my-rights-and-where-can-i-get-help-en-1495/

It falls under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.

22 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

No...no...no.  I've lost count of how many Wizards games I've watched where they had somebody up there that was in the military everybody just clapping away.  Some of our local news channels do that, too, like they are trying to show individualized appreciation.  Not only do I not agree with this method of recruitment, it comes across as not talking about what you can do for your country but the almost blank check of respect you get by ever being in the military.

I appreciate you feel that way but it doesn't change the fact that the military sees it as a valuable recruitment tool.

 

17 minutes ago, Larry said:

Maybe this matter should be settled at the collective collective bargaining table

I'm sure it will be.  Along with weed and several other things.  I think the next CBA negotiation is going to result in a lock-out for a bit.

Edited May 24, 2018 by TheGreatBuzz

[Llevron]

41 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Something I think people need to remember about free speech.  The person yelling "Hey **** stick, stand up!"  is also exercising free speech.  And the 1st only prevents the government from suppressing your speech.  A business has the right to set their own rules.  Which is why I support the NFL doing this.  And everyone has a right to let the NFL know how they feel, either with voice or wallet.  I wonder how many people screaming about the NFL players would support a cashier at McDonalds saying "go back to your country, wetback" to every Hispanic looking customer as a protest to current immigration policy.  Free speech is easy to support when you agree with the position.  The measure of a person is can you support free speech when you don't agree with the message.  Free speech is a double edged sword.

 

Seems like a copout comparing the players protesting police brutality to some racist yelling at a McDonald's but dont let that stop you. 

 

The freedom of speech has always been a double edge sword. That's kind of the point of it. It leaves it up to us to decide what is right as a people instead of forcing something on you.

 

If you can't see the difference between your example and what the players are doing then the problem is you, not the 1st amendments double edged nature. 

 

I'm mean seriously. Yelling hey wetback go back to your country is about as anti American of a stance you could take compared to peaceful protest which is LITERALLY what this country is. But whateves broham. I get your point. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Llevron

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I get your point. 

Not saying they were equal.  That fact that they weren't equal was the whole point.

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

I think some people do think the kneeling is done to be anti-american and anti-military. 

I think some people understand the kneeling is done for police-racial injustice and dont think it is anti-american or anti-military but think the Anthem is the wrong time and platform to make a civil rights display of grievance. 

 

I stand but if someone wants to sit or player wants to kneel, im 100% for that. Go for it, just dont talk or be disruptive please. 

 

I wish the issue would go away. 

 

(ironically .. a lot of discussion on here is people thinking the salute and honor to our military is being shoved down their throats and needs to be dialed down or removed ... when the kneeling and protests werent supposed to be anti-military .. maybe it actually is anti-traditional america for some of you after reading  the focus on the comments.)

[Zguy28]

I think they should just go back to how it was prior to 2008 or whatever. Don't come out on the field at all until after it is played.

 

Curious question: for London games, do they play/sing God Save the Queen?

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

"Chain of command. A debt collector may contact your chain of command without your permission but usually only to find out your location, what your phone number is, and where you work. A debt collector trying to locate you may not tell your supervisor or commander that you owe a debt. Typically, they may only speak to your supervisor or commander once to get your location information, and they can’t call if they already have this information. "

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/im-a-servicemember-and-im-being-contacted-by-a-debt-collector-about-a-debt-what-are-my-rights-and-where-can-i-get-help-en-1495/

It falls under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.

 

Thanks for clarifying.  I can tell you (as you already know) that a debt collector finding you is half the battle.  This is one of the things I saw that seemed conflicting, how does this apply?:

 

https://www.jordanucmjlaw.com/articles/article-134-debt-dishonorably-failing-to-pay/

 

4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I appreciate you feel that way but it doesn't change the fact that the military sees it as a valuable recruitment tool.

 

I know, its a grey area, I'm sure there are people behind that who feel similar to me but believe the greater good is worth it (the story of our civilization).

[Kilmer17]

The players have the ability to really make their POV seen and heard.

 

Are they willing to risk their wallets to do it?  I doubt it.  Got mine right?  How many will be willing to do what Kaep has done?  At this point, he alone is the only person on either side that deserves praise for actions.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Thanks for clarifying.  I can tell you (as you already know) that a debt collector finding you is half the battle.  This is one of the things I saw that seemed conflicting, how does this apply?:

 

https://www.jordanucmjlaw.com/articles/article-134-debt-dishonorably-failing-to-pay/

 

 

I know, its a grey area, I'm sure there are people behind that who feel similar to me but believe the greater good is worth it (the story of our civilization).

That rule is on the books but Ive never heard of it being used.  Theoretically, you could be punished/kicked out for not paying your bills.  But if the military found out because the debtor told them, the servicemember could sue for damages under the FDCPA.

Edited May 24, 2018 by TheGreatBuzz

[Bozo the kKklown]

14 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

I stand but if someone wants to sit or player wants to kneel, im 100% for that. Go for it, just dont talk or be disruptive please. 

Which NFL player was disruptive?

 

And what do you mean by "just don't talk?"

11 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Curious question: for London games, do they play/sing God Save the Queen?

I don't think they even show it, lol.

 

 

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Bang said:

Love your optimism,, wish i shared it.

 

I don't blame you one bit, history should never be ignored.

 

I'm at the point where I have no problem sharing my opinion or getting stuff off my chest, but I know what's at stake with these mid-terms and 2020.  There's only so much I can do until either of those elections outside of trying to engage in positive dialog.  I'm not going to have the time to volunteer right now, but I will make sure  I'll be registered to vote if I do get approved for moving back to NOVA (already registered down here).

 

Our country is staring at a fork in the road, there's no other way around it.  What I want is not the same as what will happen, life taught me that a long time ago.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Renegade7

[Bang]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I don't blame you one bit, history should never be ignored.

 

I'm at the point where I have no problem sharing my opinion or getting stuff off my chest, but I know what's at stake with these mid-terms and 2020.  There's only so much I can do until either of those elections outside of trying to engage in positive dialog.  I'm not going to have the time to volunteer right now, but I will make sure  I'm registered to vote if I do get approved for moving back to NOVA (already registered down here).

 

Our country is staring at a fork in the road, there's no other way around it.  What I want is not the same as what will happen, life taught me that a long time ago.

Unfortunately, i am now so jaded i am having a hard time convincing myself that the fix isn't already in.

 

I truly believe Trump will not go quietly into the night, and his followers are already threatening civil war.  Peaceful transfer of power will surprise me if he loses.

 

I will happily say I'm wrong if I am.

 

~Bang

Edited May 24, 2018 by Bang

[LadySkinsFan]

[UK_HOG]

25 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

 

 

Curious question: for London games, do they play/sing God Save the Queen?

 

They play/sing both anthems at the London games.

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

16 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Which NFL player was disruptive?

 

And what do you mean by "just don't talk?"

I don't think they even show it, lol.

 

 

 

I never said any player was disruptive. I support players kneeling. My sentence included people and players. 

 

Just dont talk as in dont talk during the anthem. Talk and explain why you kneel before and afterwards all you want. Go to schools and talk to the kids. Give interviews. Be a speaker at graduations and city festivals and gatherings. Get your voice out there, players have a tremendous platform. 

 

My original post was pretty clear and I think you knew what I meant and intended. 

 

edit - let me be clear and throw you some red meat bc that seems to be what you are looking for. If someone talks or acts up during the anthem, they should anticipate and expect to get an ear full when the anthem is done.  

Edited May 24, 2018 by Why am I Mr. Pink?

[MEANDWARF]

9 minutes ago, Bang said:

Unfortunately, i am now so jaded i am having a hard time convincing myself that the fix isn't already in.

 

I truly believe Trump will not go quietly into the night, and his followers are already threatening civil war.  Peaceful transfer of power will surprise me if he loses.

 

I will happily say I'm wrong if I am.

 

~Bang

After the election of 2016, the anti-trumpsters were the ones doing the rioting. But then again riots and civil war are not the same thing.

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

 

I never said any player was disruptive. I support players kneeling. My sentence included people and players. 

 

Just dont talk as in dont talk during the anthem. Talk and explain why you kneel before and afterwards all you want. Go to schools and talk to the kids. Give interviews. Be a speaker at graduations and city festivals and gatherings. Get your voice out there, players have a tremendous platform. 

 

My original post was pretty clear and I think you knew what I meant and intended. 

 

edit - let me be clear and throw you some red meat bc that seems to be what you are looking for. If someone talks or acts up during the anthem, they should anticipate and expect to get an ear full when the anthem is done.  

I am not asking for red meat, I am wondering where this hypothetical came from since no one has actually done this or suggested they will do this.

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, Bang said:

Unfortunately, i am now so jaded i am having a hard time convincing myself that the fix isn't already in.

 

I truly believe Trump will not go quietly into the night, and his followers are already threatening civil war.  Peaceful transfer of power will surprise me if he loses.

 

I will happily say I'm wrong if I am.

 

~Bang

 

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.  I'm still processing what I'd do if I was wrong, which is another reason I hope I'm not.

[NoCalMike]

For myself personally, I just don't get why people get so riled up about the kneeling in the first place.  Half of it I think is drummed up by media sources trying to throw gasoline on a tiny brush fire in order to turn it into more culture war BS. If you listen to Fox News, they made it about something it wasn't, so naturally people who watch that network just follow along and parrot whatever those pundits say. 

 

For example, they were talking about this on the radio here yesterday and a caller actually said, "I think if Kap was actually doing things off the field to make a difference, people wouldn't be so mad"  So I assume the guy has no internet or hasn't heard of google, otherwise it is fairly easy to look up the money & time Kap has spent trying to improve the community around him.  It is this kind of ignorant position people speak so freely from that frustrates me.  How do you have an honest conversation with people like this?

 

Kneeling/Protesting: It doesn't bother me, it doesn't take away from the game. I haven't enjoyed NFL games any less or more since the kneeling started. Regardless of what is being protested, I am fine with it as long as it doesn't interfere with the game itself, which it hasn't.

 

For me this really feels like a non-issue that has been turned into an issue.

Edited May 24, 2018 by NoCalMike

[Llevron]

42 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Not saying they were equal.  That fact that they weren't equal was the whole point.

 

I guess I missed your point, then. What exactly was it? (not being a smart ass, I legit thought your point was that freedom of speech is freedom of speech and thus all should be protected and accepted if you really mean it) 

 

Edit: Nevermind. I guess im just not following you. I see you say your point was that they werent equal. I dunno. Lost in translation someplace. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Llevron

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Re: stopping concessions 

 

 

It does. It actually makes more sense than stopping protests...

Edited May 24, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84

[LadySkinsFan]

7 minutes ago, MEANDWARF said:

After the election of 2016, the anti-trumpsters were the ones doing the rioting. But then again riots and civil war are not the same thing.

 

Peaceful marches are not riots.

 

That only happened in Charlottesville and fomented by the Nazis.