2017 Comprehensive NFL Draft Thread

[Koolblue13]

Anyone who believes "coaching up" is real, should be hoping for McDowell. 

[Peregrine]

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Anyone who believes "coaching up" is real, should be hoping for McDowell. 

Well, I certainly believe in "coaching up", but I also think its limited to certain situations.  For example, if the concerns about McDowell are his effort and character, Im not sure you can coach that out of a guy.  I think the only way that changes is someone goes through a hard enough time where they hit a breaking point.

 

I DO think it works in cases where you hear a guy is great in many ways, but "while hes a physical freak, he relies on just one move" or "doesnt use his hands well".  See, I think a great coach is best paired with a player who has good instincts, is good physically, is willing to work hard, but maybe due to physical dominance, or lack of knowledge, or lack of experience just lacks technique, skills, or relies on one way of doing things in college.  For example, scouts would prefer to see a guy who can show the full suite of pass rush moves.  But there are a lot of guys so physically gifted they got through college with just one, maybe a bull rush, or a spin move.  These guys I think can be "coached up".  Look at Trent Murphy.  He came in, worked really really hard, and was great against the run his first year.  He was a guy I pegged that could be coached up to be a good pass rusher.  2 years later, he showed it.  But the effort was there first.  

 

Guys that dont give the effort I just dont think can be coached up.  For them, its not a coaching issue, its a motivation issue.  I dont know enough about McDowell to know what he is, outside of what just people on here and draft pundits are saying about his weaknesses, but if that IS the case, I think its different.  And if a position coach is a good enough motivator and people person he can get a player like that to produce play in and play out, and "fix" them, he shouldnt be a position coach, he should be a head coach.

[HTTRDynasty]

Anyone who has time to watch this and wants to get a full view of McDowell's game (the good and the bad) should check out the video below. 

 

 

[DC Lumber Co.]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Anyone who believes "coaching up" is real, should be hoping for McDowell. 

 

I agree with @Peregrine on this one. I don't consider the knocks on McDowell something you can coach out of him. The kid is either going to wake up, mature, and prove his doubters wrong or he won't.

 

A good example of a prospect who could be "coached up" would be someone like a Tanoh Kpassagnon. A player who is raw but has all the physical tools and size to develop into a better pro than college player. They have to possess the desire to take their game to the next level as well.

[3 Rings]

I am seeing two completely different running styles between Cook and Mccaffrey.  McC seems to pause and look for the opening before accelerating or making a move into a hole and taking off.  Cook, to me, looks like he has accelerated to nearly full speed by the time he takes the hand off.  He is running by and around defenders because he is on them at full speed and by the time they react it's too late.  

 

Take me a look at the highlight videos and I'm curious to hear what you guys think.  There are lots of times where McC is on his linemans hip and then he chooses a hole and goes.  Worked out well for him and maybe that's how Stanford wanted it.  Cook just seems like a different runner.  I don't like all the off field stuff but I can see why people think he's a special runner.

[DC Lumber Co.]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Unless a (projected) top guy falls to us, I think we're likely looking at a wide range of choices at 17 that all have their warts - testing, interviewing, injuries, team fit, etc.  I'd happily trade back at that point and I'd be willing to do it (relatively) cheaply.  

 

Even an extra 4th gives us another chance in a deep draft, and ammo to trade back up later one.  

 

Couldn't agree more. I'd rather give our FO as many chances to land multiple impact players as possible before drafting any of the 1st round prospects with question marks. This draft class is so perfect for a trade back. And if we take a player with question marks I'd rather it be with a 2nd rounder at the earliest.

 

I think the question is how big of a drop off is there in talent from the first rounders to a 2nd round alternative, especially when you factor in the overall impact multiple rookie starters would have on the team? I think the drop off isn't that high based on the lack of consensus on so many players this year.

 

Examples:

Rueben Foster vs. Jarrad Davis?

Haason Reddick vs. Tyus Bowser/Ryan Anderson?

McCaffrey/Cook vs. DEEP RB class

1st rd DB vs. DEEP DB class

 

Not to mention after McDowell the run on DL looks like it will begin in the 2nd round. I'd rather put ourselves in position to finally get one instead of finding ourselves in a situation like last year with Ioannidis. Make the draft flow in our favor.

 

A trade back could even allow us to draft a top guard like Dion Dawkins to replace Lauvao at LG. Unless a top 10 talent falls I'm starting to believe I wouldn't even be that upset if we traded out of the first round entirely. Would also increase the comfort level in drafting a player who may not start right away or be a sub package player (ie an ILB that needs to learn the defense or a gadget back everyone seems to think we need)

 

 

 

 

[fordranger76]

5 hours ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

A trade back could even allow us to draft a top guard like Dion Dawkins to replace Lauvao at LG. Unless a top 10 talent falls I'm starting to believe I wouldn't even be that upset if we traded out of the first round entirely. Would also increase the comfort level in drafting a player who may not start right away or be a sub package player (ie an ILB that needs to learn the defense or a gadget back everyone seems to think we need)

I think for this draft and for this roster specifically would be a big mistake. At 17 someone is going to fall. It happens every year. With the amount of holes we have someone will be there that we can use at 17. The DL crop is just not that impressive this year. Trading back to pick a few guys up over a starter is just not a good strategy for this draft in particular but to each their own.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, skins2victory said:

I really like Foster. Some people have him falling to us at #17, but most mocks he is gone by then. I think he instantly makes our team better, and would love the tandem of Foster/Brown. My fear is I see a few mocks were he goes to the Eagles at pick 14. I would hate this because we would miss out on him, and a division rival would be getting a heck of an ILB. SO MY QUESTION IS.... IF WE WANTED TO ENSURE THAT WE GET FOSTER, AND THAT THE EAGLES DON'T, WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR US TO MOVE UP ONE SPOT IN FRONT OF PHILLY TO TAKE HIM AT PICK 13. The cards have pick 13. That would be us moving up 4 spots, again one pick ahead of Philly. We have two 4th round picks. if we trade the Cards a 4th rounder, would that be enough to move up and grab Foster AT PICK 13 if the FO believed he was worth it?

 

It was something Cooley talked about weeks back as to both Foster and Reddick.  Yeah for some reason there are some players that I am really driven by not ending up against us in the NFC east.

 

Robert Kelley trying to run against Reuben Foster?  In theory that makes me cringe.

Dalvin Cook or McCaffrey against our defense?  Cringe worthy IMO.

OJ Howard playing for the Giants?  I'd hate it.

 

Those are my top things I don't want to happen in the first round. 

 

As for Foster, my only issue would be who plays Mike?  Zach and Foster are used to playing Will.  I'd assume Zach would adjust to Mike because of his size compared to Foster.  I still think its a long shot so not keeping my hopes up much.  As for trading up for Foster.  I'd think no shot of it if Scot were still here, he religiously doesn't like to trade up and if anything trades down.  As for Bruce, got no idea.

[wilco_holland]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As for Foster, my only issue would be who plays Mike?  Zach and Foster are used to playing Will.  I'd assume Zach would adjust to Mike because of his size compared to Foster.  I still think its a long shot so not keeping my hopes up much.  As for trading up for Foster.  I'd think no shot of it if Scot were still here, he religiously doesn't like to trade up and if anything trades down.  As for Bruce, got no idea.

 

Don't forget that Zach is on an one year deal. So I would put Foster in his most natural position and let Zach guide him from the mike. Foster is your long term plan, Zach Brown might be gone next year. I think we also ran some looks last season where our starting ILB's where Sua and Will...neither of them is a true mike. 

 

I personally still love does old skool 250+ ILB's who just blow people up. Go downhill and abuse O-lineman, RB's and QB's. Guys like Benardrick McKinney and Preston Brown...but does are rare these days. Mostly because the college game has become so spread and speed heavy. 

[Est.1974]

Watt getting some serious hype, I reckon by draft day he's going fly off the board real early.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, fordranger76 said:

I think for this draft and for this roster specifically would be a big mistake. At 17 someone is going to fall. It happens every year. With the amount of holes we have someone will be there that we can use at 17. The DL crop is just not that impressive this year. Trading back to pick a few guys up over a starter is just not a good strategy for this draft in particular but to each their own.

To be fair, he was responding to my post about trading down if a top prospect doesn't fall.  

[Morneblade]

I keep going back and forth on McDowell. I think right now I'm in.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Cooley's film review today -- Foster and Reddick.  I missed some of it. He'd draft either one of them but prefers Reddick.

 

Foster:  he loves his violent hits and he can cover. He's worried about his tackling technique in terms of injury and whether that style will always work in the NFL.  He'd take him at #17.

 

Reddick:  he says what makes O lineman paranoid above anything else is a quick pass rusher who can quickly get past them on the outside -- and Reddick is that guy.  He said he has a nose for the football, has good instincts and can fly.  He likes him for the same reason I've said he's my top pick at #17 and that is the team desperately needs another pass rusher, he is that pass rusher on third downs, plus you can groom him at MLB and Cooley thinks he will be a really good MLB.

 

[DC Lumber Co.]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley's film review today -- Foster and Reddick.  I missed some of it. He'd draft either one of them but prefers Reddick.

 

Foster:  he loves his violent hits and he can cover. He's worried about his tackling technique in terms of injury and whether that style will always work in the NFL.  He'd take him at #17.

 

Reddick:  he says what makes O lineman paranoid above anything else is a quick pass rusher who can quickly get past them on the outside -- and Reddick is that guy.  He said he has a nose for the football, has good instincts and can fly.  He likes him for the same reason I've said he's my top pick at #17 and that is the team desperately needs another pass rusher, he is that pass rusher on third downs, plus you can groom him at MLB and Cooley thinks he will be a really good MLB.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SIP, whats interesting is before the Senior Bowl hype explosion and position switch I don't recall Reddick even being that highly rated of an edge rusher.

 

Where would you rank him among speed rushers if you look at him as strictly an OLB/EDGE?

[Skinsinparadise]

Wondering what all this late hype is on Charles Harris is about.  Great spin, move and quick first step.  A slow 4.82 40 at the combine.

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/71517/271/nfl-draft-needs-saints

Norris’ Mock Draft

 

Round 1 (11): EDGE Charles Harris, Missouri - The earliest I could see Harris off the board is No. 6 to the Jets. The latest is No. 15 to the Colts. Harris is a joy to watch when rushing the passer, winning with upfield explosion and a swim move as well as countering with an inside spin. His pro day workout showed an average athlete. I can work with average athletes, not non-NFL athletes.

 

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/4/19/15354966/nfl-draft-rumors-charles-harris-eagles-philadelphia-missouri-defensive-end-pass-rusher-derek-barnett

The Charles Harris buzz is heating up with the 2017 NFL Draft only a week away. According to ESPN’s Jordan Raanan, Harris “will be selected higher than most believe” and “possibly ahead of Derek Barnett.” If that report is true, there’s a good chance Harris will be the third pass rusher off the board behind potential No. 1 overall pick Myles Garrett and Solomon Thomas.

[nemocystem]

9 hours ago, 3 Rings said:

I am seeing two completely different running styles between Cook and Mccaffrey.  McC seems to pause and look for the opening before accelerating or making a move into a hole and taking off.  Cook, to me, looks like he has accelerated to nearly full speed by the time he takes the hand off.  He is running by and around defenders because he is on them at full speed and by the time they react it's too late.  

 

Take me a look at the highlight videos and I'm curious to hear what you guys think.  There are lots of times where McC is on his linemans hip and then he chooses a hole and goes.  Worked out well for him and maybe that's how Stanford wanted it.  Cook just seems like a different runner.  I don't like all the off field stuff but I can see why people think he's a special runner.

I think this is a fairly common misread on McCaffrey.  He runs with impeccable patience, & vision.  He gets compared a lot to Bell in how well disciplined his patience is through a hole.  

 

He tightens his body, & shortens his steps.  Then he uses a little wiggle to entice defenders to a side, or to allow his blockers that extra second to get their seal.  A lot of times he's running, there would be nowhere to run until a little shake here, or a pause there, & then whoosh...he's gone.  

 

Cook runs much like Portis.  He's got 2 gears...fast, & faster.  You need good blocking, or an outside rush to maximize his talents.  That's another huge difference for me.  McCaffrey creates space with his patience, & vision, & doesn't run headlong into defenders...whereas Cook doesn't really have a start/stop, or change of pace option in his repertoire.  

 

Another way to say it is that Cook beats people with speed, & athleticism, while McCaffrey beats people with football IQ, & manipulation.  As the saying goes...he's playing chess while the defense is playing checkers.  It's where i liken him to Faulk the most.  Faulk had teams beat pre-snap.  McCaffrey is similar.  It's what enabled him to defeat so many stacked fronts.  He understands how to take certain angles to manipulate LBs into better blocking positions.  As one breakdown scout puts it..."there are a lot of runs that appear like it's just great blocking, but when you really dig you can see that McCaffrey is the one making these blocks happen."  There's a lot of examples of this in his ZBS runs where he stays tight to the outside hip of his lead blocker, & before shooting the hole, he gives more indication that he is looking to keep stretching it outside...allowing defenders just enough time to cross the face of the OL, just before taking off through a crease.  He can "sit on the porch, & watch the passers by" just like Bell, & there are clips showing exactly this.  It takes patience, & trust...but most importantly, it works because he has ridiculous explosion, & acceleration.  

 

My favorite runs with McCaffrey are when he appears to be gliding through the hole at 2nd gear, & he takes 1 or 2 subtle steps that get him just enough space, & then hit hits 3rd, & is gone.   His change of pace lulls defenders into a false sense of security, & i think it makes him appear even faster at times than he really is.

[DC Lumber Co.]

4 hours ago, fordranger76 said:

I think for this draft and for this roster specifically would be a big mistake. At 17 someone is going to fall. It happens every year. With the amount of holes we have someone will be there that we can use at 17. The DL crop is just not that impressive this year. Trading back to pick a few guys up over a starter is just not a good strategy for this draft in particular but to each their own.

 

I disagree. I think the DL position group is rather impressive and very deep. I think its just a matter of how the "big board" shakes out this year with other elite talents being ranked ahead of where the majority of DL will start being selected. I'm fed up with DL not happening to be BPA right around where our picks are slotted year after year, and would rather manipulate the draft to put us in position to have DL be BPA on the board with the added benefit of stacking up extra picks in a trade down. There are tons of prospects in the 2nd-3rd rounds that would be 1st rounders in other years draft classes and we would be smart to take advantage of that.

 

Its unacceptable that our highest drafted defensive lineman is Jarvis Jenkins in the 2nd round years ago, and our free agent signings at the position weren't good enough to make me feel comfortable with rolling with what we have. 

 

In comparison, I would say the QB and Edge Rusher positions would be the groups that arent that impressive.

[SkinsPassion4Life]

Skins flying to Alabama Tomorrow for a private meeting with Ryan Anderson

[Gregpeck99]

At 17 ... its coming down to: Cook, Jackson, Watt or McDowell.

[Rex Tomb]

Thought RE: Christian McCaffery visiting the skins.  Is it possible that we are bringing in a RB to shore up the run game for Colt McCoy in the event we trade Kirk to San Francisco?

[SkinsPassion4Life]

Adoree Jackson at 17 is insane...I would not draft any CB at 17

[Morneblade]

4 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

Thought RE: Christian McCaffery visiting the skins.  Is it possible that we are bringing in a RB to shore up the run game for Colt McCoy in the event we trade Kirk to San Francisco?

[crabbypatty]

41 minutes ago, nemocystem said:

I think this is a fairly common misread on McCaffrey.  He runs with impeccable patience, & vision.  He gets compared a lot to Bell in how well disciplined his patience is through a hole.  

 

He tightens his body, & shortens his steps.  Then he uses a little wiggle to entice defenders to a side, or to allow his blockers that extra second to get their seal.  A lot of times he's running, there would be nowhere to run until a little shake here, or a pause there, & then whoosh...he's gone.  

 

Cook runs much like Portis.  He's got 2 gears...fast, & faster.  You need good blocking, or an outside rush to maximize his talents.  That's another huge difference for me.  McCaffrey creates space with his patience, & vision, & doesn't run headlong into defenders...whereas Cook doesn't really have a start/stop, or change of pace option in his repertoire.  

 

Another way to say it is that Cook beats people with speed, & athleticism, while McCaffrey beats people with football IQ, & manipulation.  As the saying goes...he's playing chess while the defense is playing checkers.  It's where i liken him to Faulk the most.  Faulk had teams beat pre-snap.  McCaffrey is similar.  It's what enabled him to defeat so many stacked fronts.  He understands how to take certain angles to manipulate LBs into better blocking positions.  As one breakdown scout puts it..."there are a lot of runs that appear like it's just great blocking, but when you really dig you can see that McCaffrey is the one making these blocks happen."  There's a lot of examples of this in his ZBS runs where he stays tight to the outside hip of his lead blocker, & before shooting the hole, he gives more indication that he is looking to keep stretching it outside...allowing defenders just enough time to cross the face of the OL, just before taking off through a crease.  He can "sit on the porch, & watch the passers by" just like Bell, & there are clips showing exactly this.  It takes patience, & trust...but most importantly, it works because he has ridiculous explosion, & acceleration.  

 

My favorite runs with McCaffrey are when he appears to be gliding through the hole at 2nd gear, & he takes 1 or 2 subtle steps that get him just enough space, & then hit hits 3rd, & is gone.   His change of pace lulls defenders into a false sense of security, & i think it makes him appear even faster at times than he really is.

 

Disagree. Cook has some of the best recognition out there and has the speed to make it count. If you notice on many of his big runs to the outside he does a tiny little shoulder shake that will freeze guys in their tracks, and that split second is all he needs to gain the edge and he's gone.

Sometimes he can beat them to the edge with flat out speed, but he's excellent at setting up blocks by pressing and giving a wiggle, then gone. And the bold part is where I really think you're wrong. Dude has a jump cut/stutter step hop to the side move that he uses to exploit guys who converge on his pressing the hole, then a hop step the other way and he's gone. Similar to how Shady was in his prime, but better imo. Start stop, jump cut, one hop and off to the races.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

 

SIP, whats interesting is before the Senior Bowl hype explosion and position switch I don't recall Reddick even being that highly rated of an edge rusher.

 

Where would you rank him among speed rushers if you look at him as strictly an OLB/EDGE?

 

I had to admit I am confounded by a couple of things when judging pass rushers.  Pass rushers who time slow but are considered quick step edge rushers -- like Galette.  Charles Harris would be in that category.  Ryan Kerrigan is faster than him but Harris has a quick first step and Kerrigan doesn't.  Jordan Willis in this draft has good speed but doesn't always look that quick coming off the ball.

 

10 yard dash       

1.  Jordan Willis 1.57

2.  Haason Reddick 1.59  

2.  TJ Watt 1.59

2.  Tyus Bowser 1.59

3.  Takkarist McKinley 1.6

3.  Derek Rivers 1.6

3.  Tarell Basham 1.6

3.  Carl Lawson 1.6

4.  Tim Williams 1.64

5.  Charles Harris 1.65

6.  Taco Charlton 1.67

7.  Derek Barnett 1.69

8.  Ryan Anderson 1.71

 

40 yard dash

1.  Hasson Reddick 4.52

2.  Jordan Willis 4.53

3.  Takkarist McKinley 4.59

4.  Derek Rivers 4.61

5.  Tyus Bowser 4.65

6.  Carl Lawson 4.67

7.  Tim Williams 4.68

8.  TJ Watt 4.69

9.  Tarell Basham 4.7

10.  Ryan Anderson 4.74

11.  Derek Barnett 4.88

12.  Charles Harris 4.82

13.  Taco Charlton 4.83

 

Thinking about a current hot speed rusher:  Vic Beasley had a 1.59 10 yard, and a fast 40 in the 4.5's.   I think we have enough power rushers.  Kerrigan-Preston-Murphy aren't fast.  They aren't guys IMO you can line up wide in 3rd and long and can tee off on the QB.  But I'd take another power rusher if they are consistent.  None of our pass rushers IMO are consistent.

 

To my naked eye Reddick plays fast. And his numbers back that up.  TJ Watt is a fun watch -- with speed that's decent.  A guy like Ryan Anderson at least speed wise would fit who we currently have as edge rushers, maybe even a tad slower considering his 10 yard time.   Jordan Willis' numbers are good and he has good intangibles, too.   My opinions on this aren't hard and fast so if you or anyone disagree, I am open minded.  I haven't studied every player here closely.  This is purely if we went all pass rushers.

 

At the moment:  

Round 1:

1. Reddick

2.  Watt

2.. Barnett  (bad speed but he's great with his hands, not sure if he's a fit as OLB)

3.  McKinley too (though Cooley's review makes me pause on him)

(Charlton maybe too but I see him more as a DE)

 

Round 2

1.  Willis

2.  Bowser

3.  Lawson (worried about his injury history, though)

 

Round 3

1. Rivers

 

[wilco_holland]

The Cooley segment in espn 980 is must hear. Beide the stuff Skinsparadise posted he also went in depth in there (their?) weaknesses. Was very interesting. Not sure if I want Reddick. Just like Sua he is hybrid player...but I'm not sure our D coördinator can get most out of does guys. You need have a creative mind and move them around.