2017 Comprehensive NFL Draft Thread

[clskinsfan]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I still think Howard and McDowell are the best two players in this draft. Probably would have been better to have stability and a leader on the Dline before drafting him though. Now we've got Hood as the only real returning player, other than a couple guys going into their second year after not doing much and a couple FAs, that, well, who knows what they'll be like, especially to a rookie with that much talent.

 

Mcdowell is trash. Mark my words. He is Haynesworth bust worthy.

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

McDowell was the only player on his defense with even a puncher's chance of being drafted within the first 4 rounds.  He was carrying the team on his back, playing 90% of defensive snaps.  I'm not surprised he started playing high and with sloppy technique.  At close to 300 pounds, he had to be exhausted playing all over the line and drawing double teams almost every snap.  The weight on his shoulders was a night and day difference from a guy like Jonathan Allen, who had first round talent all over the field playing alongside him. 

 

I think a lot of these dudes, Cooley included, need to take a closer look at context when studying film.  Hopefully our scouts and decision makers do.  I can see McDowell going to a team like Seattle, or even Dallas, and becoming an All-Pro, and us kicking ourselves for passing on him.

 

LOL. Carrying the team in his back? That back must have been broken. Because Mcdowell did NOTHING for 90% of the time he was on the field.

[Koolblue13]

15 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

And that would be the one thing I would really want to get to the bottom of. That, and if he is coachable or not. If he is, and he was just worn down and frustrated at the end of the year (he was great at the beginning) then full speed ahead.

 

If he was not coachable and blamed everyone else , then you probably need to pass on him.

Well, he went from playing one position to playing every position on the line and as far as I've heard, he never questioned it or complained. I also think Ive seen something that he said teammates partied too much.

 

He spent a load of time putting that defense on his back this year. He ended up a one man show. Played injured too.

 

I have no doubt he was pissed off and disappointed. 

 

Again, we dont know anything really. However, I can definitely understand why he might of been frustrated. 

 

Who knows. Joining the NFL, playing with everyone better than him. Having real coaches teach him with no pressure?  Could be great. Hes certainly incredibly talented and gifted.

[Morneblade]

6 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Mcdowell is trash. Mark my words. He is Haynesworth bust worthy.

 

LOL. Carrying the team in his back? That back must have been broken. Because Mcdowell did NOTHING for 90% of the time he was on the field.

 

I've watched like 4 full games. Not even close to the truth. Michigan game was not good however.

But I'll say this, his Michigan game was better than Brantleys Alabama game as far as effort goes. THAT was horrible.

Edit:

And I was looking at him in the 2nd. No more

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Mcdowell is trash. Mark my words. He is Haynesworth bust worthy.

 

LOL. Carrying the team in his back? That back must have been broken. Because Mcdowell did NOTHING for 90% of the time he was on the field.

First, why would I trust you? Especially when you're calling a guy that would have been a top 5 pick the year before trash with absolutely nothing to explain why?

 

He did a ton this year, playing injured on a terrible team and yes, he put that defense on his back constantly. 

[Morneblade]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Well, he went from playing one position to playing every position on the line and as far as I've heard, he never questioned it or complained. I also think Ive seen something that he said teammates partied too much.

 

He spent a load of time putting that defense on his back this year. He ended up a one man show. Played injured too.

 

I have no doubt he was pissed off and disappointed. 

 

Again, we dont know anything really. However, I can definitely understand why he might of been frustrated. 

 

Who knows. Joining the NFL, playing with everyone better than him. Having real coaches teach him with no pressure?  Could be great. Hes certainly incredibly talented and gifted.

 

That's kinda the felling I get. He was double teamed SO much, and got no help from anyone else.

 

And was out there for almost every snap.

 

He might not know what to do, if he "only" has to 70% of the snaps, and not have to play everywhere. And actually get some help.

 

How much? Well, I hope it's better than we did last year.

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Mcdowell is trash. Mark my words. He is Haynesworth bust worthy.

 

LOL. Carrying the team in his back? That back must have been broken. Because Mcdowell did NOTHING for 90% of the time he was on the field.

 

Per PFF:

30 total QB pressures on only 206 pass-rush snaps in 2016

24 run stops in 2016 and three straight years with strong run-defense grades

 

But he did nothing

[HTTRDynasty]

Also, in regards to pad level, that was the knock on DeForest Buckner last year and Calais Campbell when he was coming out.  These guys are freakishly tall/long, which can be both an asset and a liability.  Buckner and Campbell have made people forget about that criticism as they've developed into premier players in the league.  I think McDowell will do the same.

[Hail2theSkins24]

I don't have an issue at all with McDowell's tape. Yeah he took plays off this last year, most DL do and he was fighting some injuries. He will be in a rotation on the DL where he can take a breather on the sideline. He didn't have that luxury at MSU. The ONLY reason we would pass on him is if his interview just wasn't impressive at all. If he's going to be a problem in the locker room- pass. 

[SkinsTillIDie]

On 4/19/2017 at 6:24 AM, wilco_holland said:

I'm no expert on McDowell but what I read tells me this guy is going to drop on draft day. There looks to be a lot of negative hype around him. Mostly about his play on the field. Teams are going to take him on the secobd day because of the upside but don't see him go in the first round. He feels to much like a gamble. Arizona took the gamble on Robert Nkemdiche last year and even one of the NFL top motivational coaches could not get him to play to his ability.  

 

Exactly. Malik McDowell is this year's Robert Nkemdiche. 1 tackle in his rookie season, criticized publicly by his head coach for being immature and lazy. Maybe Nkemdiche blossoms and "figures it out." But that kind of pick at 17 is liable to get a GM fired. Bruce Allen won't be doing so.

[Hail2theSkins24]

4 minutes ago, SkinsTillIDie said:

 

Exactly. Malik McDowell is this year's Robert Nkemdiche. 1 tackle in his rookie season, criticized publicly by his head coach for being immature and lazy. Maybe Nkemdiche blossoms and "figures it out." But that kind of pick at 17 is liable to get a GM fired. Bruce Allen won't be doing so.

 

Not a bad comparison, but I don't necessarily like it. I see where you are coming from with it, but one difference to me. McDowell has PROVEN production on tape at MSU. Nkemdiche was a #1 recruit out of HS that flashed potential but couldn't put it together to have a consistent season, IIRC. 

[HTTRDynasty]

7 minutes ago, SkinsTillIDie said:

 

Exactly. Malik McDowell is this year's Robert Nkemdiche. 1 tackle in his rookie season, criticized publicly by his head coach for being immature and lazy. Maybe Nkemdiche blossoms and "figures it out." But that kind of pick at 17 is liable to get a GM fired. Bruce Allen won't be doing so.

 

Apparently Nkemdiche started turning it around towards the end of the season:

 

Head coach Bruce Arians was asked about Robert Nkemdiche earlier this week and had this to say about the former Ole Miss defensive tackle.

“He’s been practicing real hard, too,” Arians said. “He should keep his numbers up. He’s proving he’s ready to play.”

 

Anyway, I personally think McDowell's issues are completely different.  McDowell doesn't lack passion for the game like Nkemdiche did.

[Morneblade]

9 minutes ago, SkinsTillIDie said:

 

Exactly. Malik McDowell is this year's Robert Nkemdiche. 1 tackle in his rookie season, criticized publicly by his head coach for being immature and lazy. Maybe Nkemdiche blossoms and "figures it out." But that kind of pick at 17 is liable to get a GM fired. Bruce Allen won't be doing so.

 

He has a better chance loosing his job by NOT signing Cousins to a LTD this season. And I disagree with you about McDowell

 

4 minutes ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

 

Not a bad comparison, but I don't necessarily like it. I see where you are coming from with it, but one difference to me. McDowell has PROVEN production on tape at MSU. Nkemdiche was a #1 recruit out of HS that flashed potential but couldn't put it together to have a consistent season, IIRC. 

 

I agree.

[sebestian]

I would still take Foster. Hands down. Especially if he does fall, I would try to trade back, however if I can't I still take Foster. 

[skinny21]

I'm curious how many/much of these negative intangibles - lack of work ethic, doesn't accept coaching, poor interviews, etc. - translate when guys enter the league.  I think it would make for a very interesting metric to compare their production with their peers.  Maybe not only production, but injuries, contract year production, what their teammates/coaches say about them (subjective, of course), etc.  

 

[HTTRDynasty]

The video below was a pretty interesting listen.  This was posted by the same guy who made the Malik McDowell is better than Solomon Thomas video. 

 

McDowell talks about the criticisms he's been getting and what he knows he can improve on at the next level with good coaching.

 

 

[wilco_holland]

Just curious. I don't think we have a flash chat/chat program inside ES. Would you guys be interested in on durning the draft? Where we can talk about picks and stuff -> will also post this in draft thread. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

 

He's raw, but I'm not so worried about that with Tomsula. One of the things that was brought up was that he was asked to play 90% of the snaps, and play every position on the line. And both of those things I think contributed to taking plays off and being raw. Tomsula is a great teacher, I think he can hone him into a skilled player. The other part is effort. That's different. But if I have to pick a guy to take that on, Tomsula is that guy as well.

 

 

My main issue on McDowell is maybe so but why go for a wild card with your first pick in the draft?  If its the 2nd round, IMO it would make more sense.  I get the notion behind the people pushing him which is imagine if McDowell does develop in the NFL.  I agree its a possibility.  But McDowell being a boom-bust prospect is like a cliche about this dude which you hear from just about every corner, it even filtered to the Kiper-McShay draft special -- who's the hardest guy to figure out in the draft, answer: McDowell.

 

Cooley and Brandt are on him for playing high and suggesting that's hard to coach out of a player.  Cooley saying that style isn't going to work well in the NFL.  I'd dig McDowell more if the rap on him was he's big time NFL ready but you got to work on his motor versus he didn't per se take to coaching in college, his technique isn't good and you got to worry about motor.  That's a lot on Tomsula's plate.  Could he pull it off, maybe so.  But why make your first round pick such a project?

[fordranger76]

My take on McDowell is if you are willing to spend a first on him and not a guy like McCaffery I am baffled I guess on why. Why would we want to bring a guy in that lacks effort and motivation with a 1st round pick? The team that takes this guy will be someone like the Cowboys or the Seahawks thinking they can either change them or use the team culture to motivate him. I think he is getting way too much love all because of the D-Line holes. I would not give a 3rd rounder up for this guy even with the perceived need that we have on the D-Line. Take a guy like Chris Wormley in the second or third if you must draft that high with high character and someone that is going to give it his all every down.

 

For your viewing pleasure.

 

[wilco_holland]

About te McDowell stuff. Looked at 15 mock drafts and wrote down where McDowell was taken. 10 of them had him outside the first round. One had him going to us at 17, that was also the highest that he was mocked in does 15 drafts. 

 

So I think we can say that McDowell probally is not the BPA in the first. Right now it even looks pretty easy to pick him up early in the second (not that we have a pick in that range right now). 

 

This is one of does draft where I don't feel strongly about I player I want in the first round. I'm not feeling the RB love. I really like Peppers and Reddick but question if our coaching staff is capable of using them well. I really like Budda but 17 might feel a little high. Got the same feeling about Jarrad Davis at 17. I really like Taco a lot but I don't think he fits our D well. I.m.o. you need to use him as a 4-3 DE. That is his natural position. 

 

 

[Reaper Skins]

8 hours ago, SkinsTillIDie said:

 

Exactly. Malik McDowell is this year's Robert Nkemdiche. 1 tackle in his rookie season, criticized publicly by his head coach for being immature and lazy. Maybe Nkemdiche blossoms and "figures it out." But that kind of pick at 17 is liable to get a GM fired. Bruce Allen won't be doing so.

Aha, so were AHEAD of the curve on this one.  

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Who I am ecstatic about at #17 (in order) of who has a CHANCE to fall to #17 (some very slim):

- Jonathan Allen

- Solomon Thomas

- Malik Hooker

- Dalvin Cook

- Reuben Foster

 

Who I'm happy with at #17 (in order) after top players above:

- Hassan Reddick

- Derek Barnett

- Christian McCaffrey

- Forrest Lamp

 

Who I'm "eh" about at #17 (NOT in order):

- Malik McDoweel

- Caleb Brantley

- Tak McKinnley, Tyus Bowser, TJ Watt

- Any of the top CBs that fall, simply because it won't fit as much of a "need" per se 

 

Who I'm happy with in the 1st round if we trade back and get a 2nd or 3rd (mid to late 20's):

- any of the above.

[clskinsfan]

9 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Per PFF:

30 total QB pressures on only 206 pass-rush snaps in 2016

24 run stops in 2016 and three straight years with strong run-defense grades

 

But he did nothing

 

We will have to agree to disagree. The nice thing about the draft is one of us will be proven correct. And one of us will fail miserably

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Who I am ecstatic about at #17 (in order) of who has a CHANCE to fall to #17 (some very slim):

- Jonathan Allen

- Solomon Thomas

- Malik Hooker

- Dalvin Cook

- Reuben Foster

 

Who I'm happy with at #17 (in order) after top players above:

- Hassan Reddick

- Derek Barnett

- Christian McCaffrey

- Forrest Lamp

 

Who I'm "eh" about at #17 (NOT in order):

- Malik McDoweel

- Caleb Brantley

- Tak McKinnley, Tyus Bowser, TJ Watt

- Any of the top CBs that fall, simply because it won't fit as much of a "need" per se 

 

Who I'm happy with in the 1st round if we trade back and get a 2nd or 3rd (mid to late 20's):

- any of the above.

 

I am with you on most of this. I like Reddick more than you do.  

 

This year more than most, IMO mocks are so wildly different from one to another.  And I'm talking about the big name draft geeks who claim their mocks are mainly colored by their contacts in the league and what they are hearing versus their own takes.  

 

I see one mock on ESPN for example with Taco Charlton in the top 10 and another with him at the end of the first round.  McKinley and Harris ditto.   I was arguing about Dalvin Cook the other day and I'll give the point that he also is one of these guys that's all over the place in mocks (most often late first) -- I just think when it comes to him, there seems to be some smoke that there are some teams that really really like him and if that's the case I'd presume he doesn't fall out of the first round.  If we don't take him my guess is Tampa does at #19. Some hype cooking about Tampa liking Cook. Cook was even asked about it (Tampa) on First Take, yesterday.  On an aside about Tampa, all their hype about D-Jax is funny to watch -- you'd think they just signed Jerry Rice. I like D-Jax but I think they are getting a bit carried away. 

 

Kiper-McShay are running frequent, pick to pick, back and forth mocks both online and on TV and their own picks fluctuate draft to draft-day-to-day it seems -- in their latest one Malik Hooker lands at #17.  If I recall Kiper's first mock had Hooker at #17, too.

 

In the last Kiper-McShay show they had Foster going early first.   Adam Schefter (who I respect on issues like this because of his sources) critiqued that pick saying he's hearing Foster is going to drop.  As we get closer, I think there is a fighting chance he's there at #17.   I don't really see Solomon Thomas drop to #17 in mocks unless I missed a recent one.  Early in the process he was often still available at #17.    

 

As for Dalvin Cook -- I think good shot he's there at #17.  He needs to get past the Saints-Colts-Eagles.  But if one of them grabs McCaffrey, I think it will increase the odds he's there.   Jonathan Allen has dropped to #17 in a straggler mock draft -- concerns about shoulder, etc.  But I've seen him drop past 10 in a few.  If so wonder if they'd consider trading up for him?  I've seen J. Adams drop to #17 in a straggler mock draft by a big name but forgetting which one had it.  

 

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I did a 5 rounder on FanSpeak and didn't do trades and didn't do BPA with the Composite board because I wanted to get guys I liked in the spots and came away with:

1st - ILB Hasaan Reddick ... 2nd - EDGE Ryan Anderson ... 3rd - DT Dalvin Tomlinson ... 4th - C/G Ethan Pocic ... 4th - WR Ardarius Stewart ... 5th - S Tedrick Thompson

Yeah, no RB or QB or any other position we could tackle early on ... but if I were comfortable in knowing that Kirky would eventually sign a LTD, I'd be happy with this draft. Could have gone Mixon in the 3rd but I really don't think he'll be there, so didn't think it would be realistic. 3 Bama guys ... can't really go wrong there haha

[clskinsfan]

8 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

McDowell doesn't lack passion for the game like Nkemdiche did.

 

Hmmm: Yeah. This is guy I want my team to draft...No thanks.

 

“Just no effort,”

“I think you’re trying to guess on which Malik McDowell you’re going to get,”

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/michigan-state-university/2017/04/12/analyst-msus-mcdowell-has-ability-lacks-effort/100389678/

 

 “Worst interview we did.”

“Awful interview. Awful.”

https://www.landof10.com/michigan-state/report-worst-interview-nfl-team-says-former-michigan-state-dl-malik-mcdowell

 

"Too many times in his career, he showed poor technique and ability in games and it seemed he was not giving enough passion."

"Significant reports of motor and work ethic issues."

http://lastwordonsports.com/2017/03/17/malik-mcdowell-2017-nfl-draft-profile/

 

"Footwork and technique are a mess. Plays with inconsistent base width and overall balance."

"Scouts concerned about work ethic and leadership."

 "He's just a little lazy and I worry about whether he is going to be a self-starter."

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/malik-mcdowell?id=2557970

 

And there are TONS more articles out there just like these. There is no doubt that when Mcdowell WANTS to play football he can be a very good player. The problem is people who are lazy tend to stay lazy. Normally you cant change someones work ethic. They have to want to change themselves. I might be OK with taking him in the second or third if he is still there. But in no way do I want anything to do with Mcdowell at pick 17.