The "bathroom law" thread

[Jumbo]

Years ago in the specialty of human sexuality I did research on "true" and "other" hermpahroditism ( a fine area to have fun with "god doesn't make mistakes" memes), but this is just a piece I saw that I'm posting mainly for fun to watch our collective calamitous comical think tank--in which I claim membership--in action. 

 

I have considerately highlighted the primary signs of the end to decent and rational civilization in red. 

 

http://www.npr.org/2016/06/17/482480188/neither-male-nor-female-oregon-resident-legally-recognized-as-third-gender

 

Neither Male Nor Female: Oregon Resident Legally Recognized As Third Gender

 

An Oregon judge has allowed a 52-year-old retired Army tank mechanic to change gender identity. Not from male to female, or vice versa. But to a new, third gender.

 

Jamie Shupe is now legally non-binary — widely believed to be a first for the United States.

 

Oregon joins several countries in recognizing a third gender. In 2014, India became the largest country in the world to have an official third option, following in the footsteps of Pakistan, Australia and Germany.

Shupe was born male, got married and had a child. "I was in a deep, dark depression because I had boxed myself into this male identity that I couldn't stand anymore," Shupe says. Three years ago, Shupe decided enough is enough. "I told family members, we either let me out of this box or I'm shooting myself in the head. Things really got that bad," Shupe recalls.

 

Shupe is no longer legally male or female and prefers the pronoun "they."

 

So they left the military, moved into a cabin near Deep Creek Lake, Md., transitioned by taking hormones and grew breasts.

 

But Shupe still didn't feel fully female.

 

"Nobody can accept this thing ... 'you can't be female and have a penis,' " Shupe says. "That just makes people's heads explode. And that was another reason why I wanted out of this female classification because I have no intention of removing my genitals."

 

Three years ago, Shupe and their wife of 29 years, Sandy, moved to Portland, Ore. The transition and the gender changes have been tough, Sandy says, but they still love each other. "What if your spouse was in an accident and they were totally, they were, like disfigured? Would you still not love that person, just because of what they look like on the outside?" Sandy Shupe says. "That's my take on it. Jamie's still the same."

 

Sandy says her spouse is more pleasant to be around now, especially since they moved west. Jamie Shupe tears up with gratitude when talking about the move." All you have to do is go on the Human Rights Campaign website and look up transgender and LGBT protection laws and the West Coast just lights up the map for protections," Shupe says.

 

But that didn't stop them from pushing for more.

 

A few months ago, Shupe applied to the Oregon Department of Motor Vehicles to be listed as non-binary. The agency refused, so they asked a Multnomah County judge for the new gender designation, and won.

As of now, the state isn't fighting the decision, says DMV spokesman David House. Instead, he says, the agency is

looking into how to comply.

 

"We expect there would be a computer system change required, probably form changes. Also it's very likely that it would require some legislative and administrative rule changes," House says. He expects that in a few months, Oregon driver's license applications will have new gender designations, in addition to male and female. "Is it a third box? Or will it require multiple boxes?" House says. "We just don't know the answer to those questions; we're going to need to study that."

 

But just having this change is a move in the right direction, says Nancy Haque, co-executive director of Basic Rights Oregon, an LGBTQ advocacy group. She says while there are 50 ways to identify gender on Facebook, a third box is probably enough for now. "I don't think anybody's asking the DMV or any other big institution to have 50 boxes," Haque says.

 

Jamie Shupe doesn't care whether there are 50 boxes or three; they say they're just thrilled to have broken such a long-standing, monolithic barrier. "Most of the excitement is feeling the freedom of being set free of this classification system that I do not agree with," Shupe says.

 

Having a third gender on an Oregon driver's license is one thing. But people still have to choose male or female

when booking a flight and when applying for a passport or health insurance.

 

 

 

more at link

[Larry]

Oh, no. Now they're attacking the sanctity of our driver's licenses.

Does that mean that mine isn't valid, any more?

[twa]

why bother with gender classifications if we are all equal and self determinate.

[daveakl]

[] human

[] non human

[grhqofb5]

why bother with gender classifications if we are all equal and self determinate.

 

That's not true.  Gender is a social construct, so there's no innate, biological gender instinct. Except for people who are the wrong gender. They have a biological need to conform to a particular social construct.

 

At least that's how one professor I had defined the issue (not during the same lecture of course, but once you pieced it all together).  And she was an expert in this area, highly respected in her field.

[visionary]

http://bigstory.ap.org/134ed69433cc4800b63bf10659d1dc3f

10 states sue over restrooms transgender students can use

[Larry]

http://bigstory.ap.org/134ed69433cc4800b63bf10659d1dc3f

 

I rather do think they've got a point. 

 

If Obama is actually threatening to withhold federal funds from public schools that discriminate against trans, then while I might agree with his position, I don't think he's got the authority. 

 

(Although it's possible that a lawyer could convince me otherwise.) 

[TheGoodBits]

I rather do think they've got a point.

If Obama is actually threatening to withhold federal funds from public schools that discriminate against trans, then while I might agree with his position, I don't think he's got the authority.

(Although it's possible that a lawyer could convince me otherwise.)

Dept of Education lumped gender identity and sexual orientation in with sex discrimination in 2014. It's a Title IX violation and that's why funding is at stake. That was based off a 2012 opinion by the EEOC.

Google "transgender title IX" and there's a lot of info available on it.

While I think the states have a case, I think it's largely a losing case.

[LadySkinsFan]

I wouldn't mind a third non-gender box. Also three b bathrooms. What is happening with these transgender bathroom bills is millions of females have to accept born males in private spaces. That means any male who decides to claim trans status. And how are we to tell them apart? Transgenders usually don't have transsexual surgeries, so they still have their male anatomy.

So how do we tell apart males who are claiming to be women (adult human female) from predators? Thing is one can't.

Unfortunately, these transgender people want validation and not just to pee as they promote. If it was truly a matter of a place to pee, they would pee anywhere. Also, they claim that they may be attacked in men's bathrooms. Why not address the problem of male violence? Why must females be subjected to increased violence?

Why must female children be exposed to adult male anatomy?

[TheGreatBuzz]

Well the military just approved Trans serving so I guess we will see how it works out there. It won't just be shared bathrooms but berthing and bathing. A person will be required to show they have been stable in their gender for 18 months though I'm not sure what that means.

[Captain Wiggles]

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/under-the-dome/article93108497.html

 

 

Gov. Pat McCrory has let become law without his signature a bill transferring money from a disaster-relief fund to pay to defend the state against lawsuits over HB2.

 

The bill was part of the annual “technical corrections” legislation cleaning up budget-related matters. It ran 12 pages and included dozens of provisions.

 

“The governor would have preferred that the money come from the Attorney General’s budget since that’s who is refusing to do his job,” the governor’s spokesman Josh Ellis said when asked why McCrory didn’t sign the bill.

 

Attorney General Roy Cooper has said he would not defend the constitutionality of the bill. Republican leaders have criticized him for taking that position.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/under-the-dome/article93108497.html#storylink=cpy

 

Using disaster relief funds to pay for the defense of HB2. What could possibly go wrong?

[Larry]

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/under-the-dome/article93108497.html

 

 

Using disaster relief funds to pay for the defense of HB2. What could possibly go wrong?

So, they're admitting that their law is a disaster?

[Larry]

NPR: 17-Year-Old Transgender Boy Wins Texas Girls' Wrestling Championship

 

Quote

 

The Texas state wrestling championships aren't usually national news. But they made headlines this weekend when a 17-year-old transgender boy — barred by state rules from competing in the boys' league — won his weight class, against girls.

 

Mack Beggs, the teenage boy in question, hasn't sought the spotlight. By all accounts he just wants to wrestle.

 

But media attention found him anyway. In part, that's because some parents of female wrestlers have vocally objected to the fact that Beggs, who has been taking testosterone as part of his gender transition, is wrestling girls. One parent evenfiled a lawsuit against the league that organizes public school sports.

 

 

Quote

Texas is considering legislation similar to North Carolina's controversial HB2, that would require trans people in public schools and other government buildings to use the bathroom corresponding to the sex on their birth certificate. Powerful business interests are opposed to the bill, NPR's Wade Goodwyn has reported, but it's a priority of the state's lieutenant governor.

 

NPR: 'Bathroom Bill' Fight Brewing In Texas

 

Quote

 

Texas could soon follow in the footsteps of Indiana and North Carolina and pass its own "bathroom bill" in the upcoming legislative session. Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick has made passage of such a bill, which could require transgender Texans to use the restroom which corresponds to the gender on their birth certificate, a priority.

 

The proposal threatens to split the Texas Republican Party, which controls all three branches of government in Austin. Proponents include the lieutenant governor and the Senate he leads, while the Texas House of Representatives is more sympathetic to the state's business community. The politically powerful chamber of commerce and the Texas Association of Business both strongly oppose any bathroom bill.

 

North Carolina's bathroom bill nullified legislation passed by the city of Charlotte that expanded protections to LGBT North Carolinians. The state's bathroom bill also prohibited transgender people from using public restrooms that align with their gender identity. It provoked a widespread backlash from businesses, entertainers, sports organizations and the movie industry.

 

The NBA pulled its All-Star Game out of North Carolina, the NCAA moved March Madness regional games out of the state, and PayPal and Deutsche Bank suspended planned expansions there. Forbes estimated that North Carolina lost more than $600 million in the six months after Gov. Pat McCrory signed the legislation into a law. McCrory was subsequently defeated in his bid for re-election in November by Democrat Roy Cooper, who made the bathroom bill a cornerstone of his campaign.

 

 

[Busch1724]

Glad you posted those stories Larry. The first one with the wrestler, moving forward, is going to be a huge story because it will be used as an example when writing legislation. For instance, I can see many state athletic level groups and sanctioning bodies (in Pennsylvania it is the PIAA) will be drafting legislation preventing a situation like what happened in Texas from happening in their states. Quite frankly, I can see concerns. Was the testosterone during the transition really beneficial? I can see how girls who had to compete with the boy had serious concerns about a competitive advantage. On the flip side, I can see a boy transitioning into a girl having an obvious advantage is having to wrestle as a girl. These are muddy waters and can see both sides of the argument. What does everyone here think should be done?

[Larry]

9 minutes ago, Busch1724 said:

These are muddy waters and can see both sides of the argument. What does everyone here think should be done?

 

Pointing out that I assume that if they'd let him wrestle with the boys, he wouldn't have won.  (And it would probably have been much less news.)  

 

Although I do have to agree that I somehow bet that, if a girl had simply taken testosterone for a year, it would have been (correctly) labeled as a PED.  

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

19 minutes ago, Busch1724 said:

Glad you posted those stories Larry. The first one with the wrestler, moving forward, is going to be a huge story because it will be used as an example when writing legislation. For instance, I can see many state athletic level groups and sanctioning bodies (in Pennsylvania it is the PIAA) will be drafting legislation preventing a situation like what happened in Texas from happening in their states. Quite frankly, I can see concerns. Was the testosterone during the transition really beneficial? I can see how girls who had to compete with the boy had serious concerns about a competitive advantage. On the flip side, I can see a boy transitioning into a girl having an obvious advantage is having to wrestle as a girl. These are muddy waters and can see both sides of the argument. What does everyone here think should be done?

Ive read a few articles on the wrestler and Im not really sure how I feel. The wrestler (girl who identifies as a boy) wanted to wrestle boys but wasnt allowed. This isnt the situation where a born boy wanted to race in girls track and won State in girls track. 

 

I would need to see studies to see what the advantage would be. Me personally, if I was the parent I would tell my daughter to wait until she is at least 18 before she starts hormone steroids but that is me only guessing how I would feel, I would probably have to live the moment to see my true thoughts. (I tell people I hope my daughter grows up to be a lesbian chef so i think would 100% support my daughter for any gender feelings she may have. My concern would be the health effects of  taking steroids at a young age - cancer risks? idk)

 

 

^^ the cutest thing you will see all day. 

[twa]

They obviously need a stock and a modified category.....or drop the restrictions.

 

Hey if it works for racing.....

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

12 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Pointing out that I assume that if they'd let him wrestle with the boys, he wouldn't have won.  (And it would probably have been much less news.)  

 

Although I do have to agree that I somehow bet that, if a girl had simply taken testosterone for a year, it would have been (correctly) labeled as a PED.  

The Texas bylaws allow for steroid use if it is for a medical condition authorized by a doctor .. that is the exemption. there was a good bit of discussion about whether that means non-traditional gender identity is a medical condition? From everything I read, the trans boy wrestler isnt doing this for attention or anything, she just identifies as a boy and wants to wrestle boys but wasnt allowed to. 

 

Texas should have let her wrestle boys .. but then they open them selves up to lawsuits if someone gets injured. 

[Busch1724]

18 minutes ago, Larry said:

Although I do have to agree that I somehow bet that, if a girl had simply taken testosterone for a year, it would have been (correctly) labeled as a PED.  

 

I would believe this would happen also. Serious question because I feel ignorant about the topic, especially psychologically: why are kids under 18/prior to graduation allowed to transition so early? 

 

The reason I ask (I admit ignorance), and I'm making a huge generalization here, but I would suspect those who are wanting to change gender are not confident in themselves/skin. Many people not comfortable in their own skin tend to make impulsive decisions. This decision is a huge one and to make that decision at such a young age is concerning to me. From personal experience, I have an aunt who made the transition. She was in the Marines and worked her way up to gunnery sergeant prior to the change. She is VERY impulsive with decisions and is also diagnosed as bi-polar. She does not regret her decision years ago and is open to talking about it. So I asked her over the weekend about this story and doesn't know what the solution is. For the record, she thinks transitioning should not be allowed at such a young age. 

[Larry]

Yeah, I confess to massive ignorance, myself, too. But I also confess to having doubts that any person that age is competent to consent to something as committing as, say, reassignment surgery. 

 

But it then we get into things like whether the parents consented, the number of medical personnel involved (and THEIR opinion as to whether they had informed consent), and lots of things in that area, too. 

[Major Harris]

what state will be the first to crown a girls champ basketball team with a team of dudes transitioning?

[DogofWar1]

I think in most cases of transitioning, a doctor has been involved in the process and could testify, in both the legal and non-legal sense, that this is a legitimate thing and not something being done for athletic advantage.  And I think that's kind of the difference between the "troll" cases and legitimate cases.  Someone trying to exploit the system generally won't have a physician backing up their claim.

[LadySkinsFan]

Most of young children purporting to be trans are actually gay and Lesbian. Adult trans people are trying to get children diagnosed to support their status. Personally, there are underlying mental health issues that aren't addressed. There is such a thing as detransitioning, mostly when the underlying mental health issues continue and the person realizes that transition didn't fix them.

 

Transactivists discount detransitioning as much as possible because it invalidates themselves. The bathroom bills are not about peeing, it's about forcing females to acknowledging them as female. We all know that sex cannot be changed. We remain male or female as we are born. If it were solely about peeing, why are some people only changing female spaces labeled as non gender instead of all restrooms/locker rooms labeled non gender? We are seeing male rooms while female rooms are being labeled for anyone.

 

I started putting together a list of resources regarding this particular issue, where males are using female spaces as hunting grounds. 

 

And why is it that females have to give up their safe spaces instead of addressing the issue of male violence, if in fact male trans persons are being attacked in male spaces?

[LadySkinsFan]

DogofWar, the physicians, surgeons, and mental health people make a lot of money off of the trans diagnosis. Most trans persons self diagnose and then shop for medical treatment that fits that self diagnosis, and it's big business now. Now people can just declare themselves the other sex and without much treatment or surgery. And they can switch between the two. I know of one case where the male trans person wasn't making as good a livelihood as a female (big surprise), so was going back to male to have a better livelihood. 

 

Also, underlying mental health issues are not addressed, and the person still has problems.

 

Also, many late transitioning males retain their male genitalia, and because they still want to have sex with females, state that they are Lesbians and expect Lesbians to have sex with them. Search out Cotton Ceiling if you want to truly be grossed out as I am. They insist that because they call themselves women that they have women's bodies. Their penis is a female penis. It's disgusting frankly.

[Hersh]

2 hours ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

 

Texas should have let her wrestle boys .. but then they open them selves up to lawsuits if someone gets injured. 

 

2 hours ago, Larry said:

 

Pointing out that I assume that if they'd let him wrestle with the boys, he wouldn't have won.  (And it would probably have been much less news.)  

 

Although I do have to agree that I somehow bet that, if a girl had simply taken testosterone for a year, it would have been (correctly) labeled as a PED.  

 

I'm guessing there are not a lot of wrestlers on this site or at least none seem to be posting in this thread about this particular topic. 

 

A couple of things: Most states girls always wrestle boys because there simply are not enough female wrestlers. Some female wrestlers do well, have winning records, etc, but I don't think any have won state championships to this point. I would not assume that, in this case, he would have lost the majority of matches to boys. 

 

The way Texas handled this is idiotic. There should be no problems in any sport for a female transitioning to a male for them to be able to tryout and compete against boys or to make a boys team. Heck, if a girl is good enough to compete on a boys team, they should have that option. The problem I can envision is the other way around when in comes to transgender though how often this is an issue at the HS level. I think it's more problematic at competition levels beyond HS.