The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[TradeTheBeal!]

11 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

This DeSantis stunt of sending illegal immigrants on a plane to Martha’s Vinyard is pretty disgusting. **** that guy. 

Coulda been a whole lot worse for them.  
 

DeSantis could’ve sent those poor folks to a Ghost show.  But even he’s not that cruel.

[tshile]

10 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

So send them to democratic states and see what how they like it. I sort of get it.

Same. 
 

I mean it’s a political stunt more than anything because neither side is sincere in addressing the issue, not denying that. But I absolutely understand the position of someone not taking your concerns seriously, downplaying the problem you’re dealing with, so you make it their problem. And of course the predicted irony of the people downplaying your problem, having a fit when it becomes their problem. You can find examples of this sort of thing in normal life. It’s a way to get at someone who won’t take your problems seriously - and I totally get the idea. We also see what creates this in most political issues - people are so incredibly selfish they only care about a specific group of issues, and specifically only about certain solutions to those issues, and lack any ability to care about other issues and are unwilling to entertain any other ideas to the issues they do care about. 
 

it’s baked into political discourse at this point. I see it here all the time, even though this place is way more reasonable on political discourse than most. 
 

Middle class people don’t care about the problems of the people above them. And wonder why the people above them don’t care about their problems. 
 

people above middle class don’t care about the problems of the people below them. And wonder why the people below them don’t care about their problems. 
 

taxes, education, etc. you can find people that aren’t like that but they’re the exception. Overall as groups, that’s their mentality. So we have no place for compromise and as such have no room for solutions. So instead each issue flounders around until one party has enough power to implement something on their own - and even then it has to be high enough on the priority list. 
 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

16 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Coulda been a whole lot worse for them.  
 

DeSantis could’ve sent those poor folks to a Ghost show.  But even he’s not that cruel.

 

I hear they're using that music for torture in North Korea.  

[TradeTheBeal!]

Just a reminder that Massachusetts has had a Republican governor since 2015.  So this isn’t even about red/blue political stuff.  
 

This is just DeSantis doing Nazi **** to brown people.  We start with planes to Marthas Vineyard but pretty soon it’ll be one-way trains to nowhere, if you get my drift.

[tshile]

20 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Just a reminder that Massachusetts has had a Republican governor since 2015.  So this isn’t even about red/blue political stuff.  
 

This is just DeSantis doing Nazi **** to brown people.  We start with planes to Marthas Vineyard but pretty soon it’ll be one-way trains to nowhere, if you get my drift.

Well aren’t they considered a sanctuary state or a state with lots of sanctuary cities?

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

Well aren’t they considered a sanctuary state or a state with lots of sanctuary cities?

 

 

Kinda, sorta?  But actually not?

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/immigrant-activists-renew-push-for-sanctuary-state-bill-in-mass/2291519/

 

I do know that the Obamas purchased a beach house on MV somewhat recently.  So, it’s probably safe to stop pretending “sanctuary cities” really factored into it.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Kinda, sorta?  But actually not?

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/immigrant-activists-renew-push-for-sanctuary-state-bill-in-mass/2291519/

 

I do know that the Obamas purchased a beach house on MV somewhat recently.  So, it’s probably safe to stop pretending “sanctuary cities” really factored into it.

well they still have a bunch of sanctuary cities even if the move to make it a state level thing hasn’t gone through yet (no idea if it did or what the status of it is)

 

we have that in Virginia too. And a republican governor. I’m not familiar with Massachusetts situation but if someone sent them to, say, Fairfax, pretending that because we have a republican governor it’s not about sanctuary cities would be silly. And people who understand the area would get that. 

I started out calling it a political stunt. So I’m not naive to what’s going on here. But just like the best jokes have a grain of truth in them somewhere, political stunts usually have a grain of truth in there somewhere. 

 

[Fergasun]

I hate the inaction on illegal immigration.

 

Why didn't Obama do something when he had the Senate at filibuster proof? 

 

Legalize the DACA kids.  Throw in border security.   Dems will whine it's not enough.  GOP will whine about treating people with dignity and respect.  

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Use your illusions t-dog and keep them close.  As you continue down this path, you will definitely need them…

[tshile]

53 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

Why didn't Obama do something when he had the Senate at filibuster proof? 

The short answer

The filibuster proof majority is oversold compared to what actually happened or was possible. 
 

they chose healthcare 

[Renegade7]

I don't mind migrants being sent to other parts of the country if border states are trying not to be overwhelmed, I jus wish it was more more organized then spiteful.

 

What I don't like is multi-million dollar publicity stunts, like dropping them off at Martha's Vineyard or around the corner from the VPs house.

 

Get with your senators and demand they propose a bill, Biden needs a bill from Congress to sign anyway, the hell is Cruz or Rubio doing right now besides egging this on?

Edited September 15, 2022 by Renegade7

[balki1867]

11 minutes ago, tshile said:

The short answer

The filibuster proof majority is oversold compared to what actually happened or was possible. 
 

they chose healthcare 

 

I mean... the filibuster-proof majority was only 4 months long (not 2 years like some think) and included senators from Indiana, Arkansas and Nebraska (who weren't interested in immigration reform), and Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd (who were both months away from dying and regularly missed votes).

 

Even with healthcare, they had to drop the public option to get the 60th senate vote.

 

I'm not sure why we're sitting here in 2022 arguing about why Obama didn't address all of the country's problems those 4 months 13 years ago.  It's almost like we don't even expect the other party to try and now hold him extra accountable for not doing more.

Edited September 15, 2022 by balki1867

[CousinsCowgirl84]

3 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

It's making a mockery of human life. 

Living in the north east sounds a lot more attractive than living in Texas. Why is it a mockery?

 

Texas is full of people who hate immigrants, illegal or otherwise. I’d be glad to leave, I think.

[tshile]

26 minutes ago, balki1867 said:

I'm not sure why we're sitting here in 2022 arguing about why Obama didn't address all of the country's problems those 4 months 13 years ago

I wasn’t trying to get into it all which is why I gave my short answers. 
 

but the reason why is because people don’t actually pay attention, and the truth/explanation is always longer to explain that a catchy “he has a filibuster proof majority” slogan is. 
 

so that’s why in 2022 we have people who wonder why Obama didn’t do more in his 8 years to fix all our problems with his filibuster proof majority. 
 

sadly this is how it works. And people spend a lot of time creating and pushing false/exaggerated narratives because it works so well 

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I don't mind migrants being sent to other parts of the country if border states are trying not to be overwhelmed, I jus it was more more organized then spiteful.

 

What I don't like is multi-million dollar publicity stunts, like dropping them off at Martha's Vineyard or around the corner from the VPs house.

Yeah I mean we’re unfortunately used to people being figurative political pawns (as in a group being thrown around the media cycle)

 

but not so much literally as in physically rounded up and shipped somewhere. 
 

But, inability to consider compromise and actually getting things done leads to stuff like this. Stuff that could be useful, distasteful or not, but ultimately is just a stunt because our government is non-functional at the moment. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by tshile

[Captain Wiggles]

I'm enjoying the thought that Martha's Vinyard is a "sanctuary city". Where next? The Hamptons? 🤣

 

 

[Fergasun]

Having a filibuster proof majority will be insanely powerful if it ever happens again.  My point is that the Dems squandered an every 20 year opportunity to do something huge, likely because they didn't realize it. 

 

Either way at this point the GOP doesn't really want to compromise on immigration reform.  In fact they want to do the opposite...

 

[spjunkies]

I'm getting sick of these games. I don't know what can be done but I'd find some way to punish Florida and Texas for this bull****.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

15 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

Having a filibuster proof majority will be insanely powerful if it ever happens again.  My point is that the Dems squandered an every 20 year opportunity to do something huge, likely because they didn't realize it. 

 

Either way at this point the GOP doesn't really want to compromise on immigration reform.  In fact they want to do the opposite...

 

They could barely get 51 votes to pass a no brainer infrastructure  bill.  The Democratic Party is a lot more fractured than the Republican Party. 

[Renegade7]

35 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

sadly this is how it works. And people spend a lot of time creating and pushing false/exaggerated narratives because it works so well 

Yeah I mean we’re unfortunately used to people being figurative political pawns (as in a group being thrown around the media cycle)

 

but not so much literally as in physically rounded up and shipped somewhere. 
 

But, inability to consider compromise and actually getting things done leads to stuff like this. Stuff that could be useful, distasteful or not, but ultimately is just a stunt because our government is non-functional at the moment. 

 

Agreed.

 

Having said that, squeaky wheel gets the oil, at some point Biden does have to reconsider his priorities. Like he did with inflation and this incoming train strike.

[tshile]

21 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

Either way at this point the GOP doesn't really want to compromise on immigration reform.  In fact they want to do the opposite...

Well I don’t think the filibuster proof majority was what you seem to think it was.  If I recall correctly someone died and so they couldn’t vote. And they didn’t squander it they used it for the ACA and as has been pointed out they had to drop some things to get everyone on board. 
 

And we just saw this play out with the senate majority where 2 dems just wouldn’t get on board. 
 

the nature being the big tent party is that a fillibusger proof majority probably requires 65+ seats to deal with the few that aren’t for whatever the agenda item is. 
 

and the dems don’t seem to care about border security or fixing the process - which is part of the immigration problem. The lack of compromise is on both sides. 

[tshile]

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Agreed.

 

Having said that, squeaky wheel gets the oil, at some point Biden does have to reconsider his priorities. Like he did with inflation and this incoming train strike.

Well the dems suck at wielding power. The republicans can get more done with less. 
 

in addition to being the big tent party it is inherently easier to just say no than it is to come up with an idea, sell it, and execute it. 
 

for all the “minority rule” complaints the reality is dem voters are not reliable, dems are not on the same page about prioritization of issues, and when you drill down on an issue they aren’t on the same page about solutions. They’re bad at selling their ideas, and when they execute them they’re hardly great solutions. 
 

we tend to talk about both parties as these 2 things but while the republicans can be lockstep on something the democrats are basically a coalition of many different groups. They aren’t one group of people like republicans are. 

On some level Biden is basically trying to herd cats. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Living in the north east sounds a lot more attractive than living in Texas. Why is it a mockery?

 

Texas is full of people who hate immigrants, illegal or otherwise. I’d be glad to leave, I think.

 

Ok, you're being intentionally obtuse about it now.

[Jabbyrwock]

52 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

I'm getting sick of these games. I don't know what can be done but I'd find some way to punish Florida and Texas for this bull****.

 

You mean more than making the people there live in Texas and Florida...harsh dude.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I see both sides of the argument but my question is, how is this not kidnapping?  Taking someone against their will to a place they don't want to go a just dropping them off?  Can NYC round up all their homeless and ship them to Texas?

[tshile]

25 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

I see both sides of the argument but my question is, how is this not kidnapping?  Taking someone against their will to a place they don't want to go a just dropping them off?  Can NYC round up all their homeless and ship them to Texas?

well, did they round them up or did they do this with recent crossers that they had locked up already?

 

there’s a huge difference in those two scenarios to me. 
 

I had assumed they had not gone around rounding people up - but, you know, sort of dangerous to assume I suppose