The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Bang]

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular and it wasn't supposed to be anything religious.  Just a question I like to ask sometimes.  It's just two topics that both sides usually feel strongly about and it's interesting to see where people are willing to give and take.

 

EDIT:  For the record I am an atheist and believe abortion is wrong in most cases.  I also accept it isn't my job to impose my morals on you so I consider myself pro-choice.

I gothcha Buzz..  i was not meaning "you" per sé..  i've always appreciated your perspectives.

I just meant the radical right..  i mean republican party.

 

~Bang

Edited March 10, 2016 by Bang

[Rocky21]

Her getting shot is actually not funny....

Yet I'm laughing anyway. 

[TheGoodBits]

Yet I'm laughing anyway.

The only sad part about is that the kid didn't kill her. If he had, he might have had a chance to be raised by someone who wasn't a complete moron. Now the poor kid is doomed.

[mistertim]

The only sad part about is that the kid didn't kill her. If he had, he might have had a chance to be raised by someone who wasn't a complete moron. Now the poor kid is doomed.

It also would have saved a lot of rabbit lives as they wouldn't have needed as many to test the ridiculous amount of makeup she seems to wear.

[twa]

It also would have saved a lot of rabbit lives as they wouldn't have needed as many to test the ridiculous amount of makeup she seems to wear.

 

 

Hey, if a barn needs paint go ahead and slap a few coats on.

 

Rabbits multiply like rabbits anyway.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I think the modifications debate is very valid when it comes to AR-15s. Since they have changeable stocks you can also get a "bump" or "slide" stock, that also essentially converts it into a full auto without having to go through the NFA process.

 

Speaking of the NFA process, the whole "gun trust" thing is very shady to me and can be a major loophole. If you want an NFA weapon you should have to go through the process personally IMO.

 

I say all of this being a gun owner (including an AR-15).

Yea I think there does need to be some tighter rules and enforcement on "after market" parts for weapons.  I also think some of the laws need to be revisited because they just don't make sense with what's available today.  I suspect you know this also as an AR owner.  Though I also don't know of any mass shootings that have been done by some of these modifications so maybe the tighter rules would just be to make me feel better. 

[mistertim]

^^ That's true, but the amount of tinkering and some of the semi-crazy modifications you can do to an AR platform that you can't with an equivalent wood stock semi-auto rifle does lend a bit of validity to the perception that ARs are rather different than the latter. But I do agree to an extent that "black guns" get some unfair criticism by people who are either ignorant of rifles and guns in general or those who are out purely pushing an ideology.

[China]

Are looser gun laws changing the social fabric of Missouri?

 

Missouri is poised to become the latest state to allow guns into college classrooms.

 

The Republican-led state senate is currently finalizing deliberations on a bill that, if passed, would remove restrictions on carrying concealed weapons on college campuses statewide.

 

The specter of loaded firearms in college classrooms raises particular concerns in no small part because the dynamics of learning often depend on professors challenging students to step beyond their comfort zones.

 

But beneath these concerns lies a broader question: do guns change the ways that people engage with each other?

 

...

 

Missouri used to have among the strictest gun laws in the nation, including a requirement that handgun buyers undergo background checks in person at sheriffs’ offices before obtaining gun permits.

 

But over the past 10 years, an increasingly conservative legislature and citizenry relaxed limitations governing practically every aspect of buying, owning and carrying guns. The legislature relaxed prohibitions on the concealed and open carry of firearms in public spaces, lowered the legal age to carry a concealed gun from 21 to 19 and repealed many of the requirements for comprehensive background checks and purchase permits.

 

And in 2014 voters approved Amendment 5 – which effectively negated the rights of cities or towns to pass or enforce practically any form of gun control.

 

A natural experiment

 

What followed was a state of affairs that The New York Times has described as a “natural experiment” testing whether more guns led to more safety and less crime.

 

Instead, according to research, the opposite occurred, in as much as gun deaths soared when it became easier for people to buy and carry firearms.

 

A team of researchers led by Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, analyzed extensive crime data from Missouri and found that the state’s 2007 repeal of its permit-to-purchase handgun law “was associated with a 25 percent increase in firearm homicides rates.” Between 2008 and 2014 the Missouri gun homicide rate rose to 47 percent higher than the national average.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[PokerPacker]

A team of researchers led by Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, analyzed extensive crime data from Missouri and found that the state’s 2007 repeal of its permit-to-purchase handgun law “was associated with a 25 percent increase in firearm homicides rates.” Between 2008 and 2014 the Missouri gun homicide rate rose to 47 percent higher than the national average.

 

Click on the link for the full article

Just based on the what made it here, looks like they cherry-picked "firearm homocides". How does does the overall homocide rate look? What about other crimes like rape?

[Passepartout]

We can talk about gun control. All we want but it is about acting on it. As really we really are not!

[Burgold]

Just based on the what made it here, looks like they cherry-picked "firearm homocides". How does does the overall homocide rate look? What about other crimes like rape?

Is that really what you got from the article? This is pretty straight forward stuff.

 

More guns = more gun violence. Their rate of gun homicide rose 25% and was almost 50% higher than the national average. That's scary. 

[tshile]

He's trying to see if such simple analysis is perhaps flawed.

Which, it is often times.

[twa]

Is that really what you got from the article? This is pretty straight forward stuff.

 

More guns = more gun violence. Their rate of gun homicide rose 25% and was almost 50% higher than the national average. That's scary. 

 

were they justified homicides?....some people need killing 

 

if ya want straightforward  

[tshile]

It's funny when you start clicking through the links int he main articles trying to find the source information, and after going through the 3rd or 4th site, you find a 3 page PDF.

 

That was the research. 3 whole pages.

[PokerPacker]

Is that really what you got from the article? This is pretty straight forward stuff.

 

More guns = more gun violence. Their rate of gun homicide rose 25% and was almost 50% higher than the national average. That's scary.

More gun violence != more violence.

One could say that if you have more doctors, you'll get more malpractice. Then point to a statistic that correlates the rise of malpractice/negligent deaths and as proof that doctors are bad for us.

Cherry-picking statistics like that is a good way to get the results you want, not the true picture.

[tshile]

Is that really what you got from the article? This is pretty straight forward stuff.

 

More guns = more gun violence. Their rate of gun homicide rose 25% and was almost 50% higher than the national average. That's scary. 

 

So look at the numbers yourself

 

http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/SAC/crime_data_violent_crime_960grid.html

 

There were actually less murders in 2014 than in 2008 in Missouri. According to their stats.

 

In fact, there were less of everything except for rapes. Weird how that didn't get mentioned...

 

There's not any trend at all in the data, it's all over the place. And has been for 2 decades.

 

http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/SAC/crime_data_crime_index_960grid.html

 

Violent crime in general is actually down since 2008.

 

The actual study costs money so I don't know what rates they have for gun homicides specifically. Do you want to purchase it so we can look it over? Or find it somewhere? I spent as much time as I'm going to spend looking for it on google, and all I can find is this article reposted all over the place with a few links to rebuttals of the article.

 

This is the GOP on climate change level of analysis you have going on here.

[Burgold]

So look at the numbers yourself

 

http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/SAC/crime_data_violent_crime_960grid.html

 

There were actually less murders in 2014 than in 2008 in Missouri. According to their stats.

 

In fact, there were less of everything except for rapes. Weird how that didn't get mentioned...

 

There's not any trend at all in the data, it's all over the place. And has been for 2 decades.

 

http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/SAC/crime_data_crime_index_960grid.html

 

Violent crime in general is actually down since 2008.

 

The actual study costs money so I don't know what rates they have for gun homicides specifically. Do you want to purchase it so we can look it over? Or find it somewhere? I spent as much time as I'm going to spend looking for it on google, and all I can find is this article reposted all over the place with a few links to rebuttals of the article.

 

This is the GOP on climate change level of analysis you have going on here.

You may have a point, but I don't think so. One of the things I have learned in looking at gun data is how often it is underreported. For example, if a coroner lists blood loss as cause of death, the gun shot wounds or the gun is not counted among the homicide number. It's not considered gun violence. There are no consistent rules in reporting.

 

However, let's get back to a spade being a spade.

 

Even if the overall homicide rate went down (which we can agree is a good) we should still be very concerned that gun related murders rose 25%. More, we should be concerned that the  number of gun deaths in this state is nearly 50% higher than anywhere else in the country. When you couple that data with how the data is frequently manipulated and it still comes out that bad... it should be concerning.

[tshile]

However, let's get back to a spade being a spade.

 

Even if the overall homicide rate went down (which we can agree is a good) we should still be very concerned that gun related murders rose 25%.

 

How are you missing the point? Did you not look at the numbers? The numbers are all over the place. The only number that has any trend is the general violent crime stat which has been trending down over the same period of time. Everything else is all over the place.

 

There's nothing to take away from that. Anyone who tried to claim anything about clear trends would either not understand how to honestly discuss statistics, or is intentionally trying to manipulate.

 

The total number of homicides went down by ~70 comparing 2008 to 2014. But it went up ~30 from 2013. I don't know what the population changes were, so I don't actually know what the rate did. But during that time it was all over the place. If someone tried to say anything about their crime prevention and dealing with homicides in that state from 2008-2014, they'd be completely full of crap. There's nothing meaningful there for anyone to be happy about.

 

So all we have is someone saying it went up 25% from 2008 to 2014, and no one's actually given us the numbers to look at to see what went on during that time. Would you find the numbers? Maybe then there would be a conversation to be had.

 

Statistics are easily misused, intentionally or not. But I have a feeling you already know that...

[isle-hawg]

Couple taken hostage kill murder suspect, jail escapee in Mississippi

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/11/us/mississippi-escaped-murder-suspect-killed-hostages/index.html

 

Well if the gun control crowd had their way - only folks that have guns being the outlaws and cops this family would have probably been murdered.  Thank god they had a gun and I thank them for their public service of taking out this criminal.

 

It is not coincidence that the murder capitols of the US are the same cities with the most stringent gun control laws e.g Chicago.  The bad guys don't seem to care about the laws.  Only the law abiding citizens abide by them.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Couple taken hostage kill murder suspect, jail escapee in Mississippi

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/11/us/mississippi-escaped-murder-suspect-killed-hostages/index.html

 

Well if the gun control crowd had their way - only folks that have guns being the outlaws and cops this family would have probably been murdered.  Thank god they had a gun and I thank them for their public service of taking out this criminal.

 

It is not coincidence that the murder capitols of the US are the same cities with the most stringent gun control laws e.g Chicago.  The bad guys don't seem to care about the laws.  Only the law abiding citizens abide by them.

The really good news is that the escaped felon was not able to get a gun himself...because of laws. As it turns out, he brought a knife to a gun fight...because of laws. There is no one in the "gun control crowd" that wants to disarm law-abiding folks who wish to defend their homes.

[Burgold]

Tshile,

 

You may be right. I'm not sure, but a 25% increase in gun deaths in one year speaks loudly to me. I'm not sure why 2014 was different from other years, but it was. Is it an aberration or a trend? I'd prefer you to be right because I won't root for murder. I look around and see a culture getting angrier. I hear terrible rhetoric and witness mass shootings rise to a rate where they barely make the news.

 

The only changes is that we've made it easier to own guns. The gun lobby has won pretty much every fight it has got into. I'm a believer in balance. Right now, the balance seems slanted so far that things are sliding off the table.

 

We can and should do better. If every other 1st and 2nd world nation on Earth can do better so can we.

[isle-hawg]

 There is no one in the "gun control crowd" that wants to disarm law-abiding folks.

I disagree. 

[tshile]

There is no one in the "gun control crowd" that wants to disarm law-abiding folks who wish to defend their homes.

Yes there are. Read the thread.

Tshile,

You may be right. I'm not sure, but a 25% increase in gun deaths in one year speaks loudly to me.

....

It's 25% from 2008 to 2014 with no numbers being furnished to back it up. It's not one year.

Did you find the numbers?

[stevenaa]

Couple taken hostage kill murder suspect, jail escapee in Mississippi

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/11/us/mississippi-escaped-murder-suspect-killed-hostages/index.html

 

Well if the gun control crowd had their way - only folks that have guns being the outlaws and cops this family would have probably been murdered.  Thank god they had a gun and I thank them for their public service of taking out this criminal.

 

It is not coincidence that the murder capitols of the US are the same cities with the most stringent gun control laws e.g Chicago.  The bad guys don't seem to care about the laws.  Only the law abiding citizens abide by them.

 

Good for them.  Hope the husband taking the gun from his wife and finishing the job doesn't cause the any issues. 

[PleaseBlitz]

Man loses leg shooting rifle at lawn mower packed with explosives

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/03/27/man-loses-leg-shooting-automatic-weapon-at-lawn-mower-packed-with-explosives/?tid=hybrid_experimentrandom_2_na

 

 

Gruesome video footage has surfaced showing the moment a Georgia daredevil lost his leg shooting a semiautomatic rifle at a lawn mower packed with several pounds of deadly explosives.

 

David Pressley, 32, can be seen moving closer and closer to the explosive target as he peppers it with bullets. Moments later, the lawn mower suddenly explodes, unleashing a plume of smoke and shrapnel.

 

Authorities said one piece of shrapnel struck Pressley, severing his leg from below the knee, according to ABC affiliate WSB-TV.

 

The graphic video, recorded last week, captures blood splattering across the camera’s lens before Pressley yells, “I blew my leg off!”

 

 

Tannerite — a mixture of ammonium nitrate and aluminum powder that explodes when struck by a high-velocity bullet — is normally used for target practice.  The product’s website instructs users not to place Tannerite inside, under or near any type of metal objects. For every pound of Tannerite, experts advise standing 100 yards away.

 

“Do not shoot targets larger than 1 pound unless it is required due to extreme long-range competition,” safety instructions on the Tannerite website read.

 

Police say Pressley used three pounds of the material and was only 25 yards away when the explosion occurred.

 

I haven't watched the video, but here are my thoughts:

 

1)  LOL, what a dumb****

2)  Explosives like this are used for target practice?  Or are they really just used to make loud noises so gun nuts can jerk off later?

3)  Seems like if you mixed this yourself, it would be extremely illegal, but you can evidently buy this product at Cabelas.  That makes sense.

Edited March 28, 2016 by PleaseBlitz