I Want Cousins To Start 16 Games This Fall

[Aireskoi]

Initiating rant:

 

--

 

Would you feel worse about RG3 if Kirk was a quality starter for us for the next 8-10 years?  Just wondering, not asking if you think he will be solid, because you were clear that he is hot garbage to you.  

 

I'm asking if it would make RG3 not panning out worse or better in your, or any strong RG3 supporter's mind, if Kirk was our QB and he played at a high level and cut the picks down?

[FivePointHammer]

I'm not trying to be "that guy", but maybe we can just keep the Kirk stuff in here and let the RG3 talk go in the other thread.

There is a lot of talk about all threads becoming the same, so maybe we can just discuss Kirk here.

I know the point of the post is that we will be able to move forward, but the post is begging for responses about Griffin.

Edit - Didn't mean to single you out, there are a few posts I could have quoted by others as well. The idea is lets keep this one clean and nice...

I hear ya, but if you read what I am saying the thrust of my comments is responding to the OP. In talking about Griffin's "short leash" I am setting forth the assertion that we'll either see a more competitive team under Griffin or the author of the OP will likely get what he is saying he wants earlier rather than later.

When both threads are discussing the same job (starting QB) it should be expected that there will be some crossover content. I don't necessarily think I should have to mention Kirk by name or refrain from mentioning RG3 by name in order to engage the original content of this thread. Being too nitpicky with what others post will undoubtedly lead to a lot of insecurity and be detrimental to forum participation.

[autoidiodyssey]

Here's the thing. Griffin's leash absolutely has to be very short for one reason... The fans won't tolerate another year of the same garbage at QB.

 

If RG3 has a bad game against the Ratbirds, and Kirk plays well again, I wouldn't be surprised if we heard "We want Kirk" chants at the last preseason game. I think RG3 has lost most of the fanbase at this point. The polls by 980 and JFK show that.

[santanathegreat]

If RG3 has a bad game against the Ratbirds, and Kirk plays well again, I wouldn't be surprised if we heard "We want Kirk" chants at the last preseason game. I think RG3 has lost most of the fanbase at this point. The polls by 980 and JFK show that.

yea because one of the dumbest fan bases in the league should have say in what the redskins do.

 

LOL what a joke and yet another dumb thread

[FivePointHammer]

yea because one of the dumbest fan bases in the league should have say in what the redskins do.

LOL what a joke and yet another dumb thread

I don't think we're dumb. I think collectively the fanbase has a generally high football IQ comparetively. I do think we're abused, and abused people don't always behave in the most rational way. This fanbase has endured as much if not more negativity than any other fanbase in the league over the past 20 years. That doesn't mean we've been the worst team, but we have been the most dramatic team who's constantly in the media for the wrong reasons.

[TheGreek1973]

So much drama, but Saturday is around the corner.  I hope the God I am wrong b  Satuut I see another bad to mediocre games from RGIII and then what people?  What do we do?  To we also play him in the 4th game?  To we say ef-it we will start him in the first game and hope for the best?  

 

I said this before the mistake of this coaching staff was not to have an open competition at QB.  Hell if might have even helped RGIII for all we know.  Saturday is the game for me that will prove if we should role with this guy or go for Cousins.

[Dirt]

So what is it? 9 starts? On the redskins among all the rg3 drama? I don't think that's a fair shake, not enough to say "oh its hopeless, he throws ints like crazy". Didn't he throw 4 in one game? I bet if he only threw 2 that day, many people wouldn't have that perception.

And it's funny how he kills when he comes off the bench...mostly. that, to me, seems like a guy ready for first team reps and starts. If for no other reason that we need to go another direction at qb anyway.

Again, 9 starts is it? 9 chaotic, on the fly, debated starts in this **** storm of a football team? That's nothing. I love the idea of a full year for him. Fair evaluation and all.

Besides, isn't it telling that we're talking about him going a full year, when the idea of the other guy lasting 16 games at all is doubtful?

[Aireskoi]

Just thinking more about last year and the turnovers vs. TD's.  There is so much talk about Kirk's horrible picks, and rightfully so, but he throws TD's too.

 

Kirk 2015 - 10 TD passes - 11 Turnovers (9 picks + 2 fumbles - 2 lost)

RG3 2015 - 5 TD (4 passes 1 run)  - 10 Turnovers (6 picks + 9 fumbles - 4 lost)

 

Then the sacks.

 

Kirk 204 attempts 8 sacks = 3.92% sacked

RG3 214 attempts 33 sacks = 15.42% sacked

 

Kirk 204 attempts 10 TD passes = 4.9% of attempts were TD's

RG3 214 attempts 4 TD passes = 1.87% of attempts were TD's

 

 

I just don't see where so many are ready to give up on Kirk, but are OK with another year of the same thing we've had the last 2.

[ThomasRoane]

So what is it? 9 starts? On the redskins among all the rg3 drama? I don't think that's a fair shake, not enough to say "oh its hopeless, he throws ints like crazy". Didn't he throw 4 in one game? I bet if he only threw 2 that day, many people wouldn't have that perception.

And it's funny how he kills when he comes off the bench...mostly. that, to me, seems like a guy ready for first team reps and starts. If for no other reason that we need to go another direction at qb anyway.

Again, 9 starts is it? 9 chaotic, on the fly, debated starts in this **** storm of a football team? That's nothing. I love the idea of a full year for him. Fair evaluation and all.

Besides, isn't it telling that we're talking about him going a full year, when the idea of the other guy lasting 16 games at all is doubtful?

 

Not to mention those starts were on a team that everyone on this board claims had a horribad O-line and a weak defense. 

[NickyJ]

Would you feel worse about RG3 if Kirk was a quality starter for us for the next 8-10 years?  Just wondering, not asking if you think he will be solid, because you were clear that he is hot garbage to you.  

 

I'm asking if it would make RG3 not panning out worse or better in your, or any strong RG3 supporter's mind, if Kirk was our QB and he played at a high level and cut the picks down?

Not really. If Kirk did actually do well, I'd be happy that SOMEONE panned out from 2012. What I want most now is a competent quarterback that we don't have to have yearly debates over. Plus, exlcluding our underwhelming QB class, we've got Morris and K.Rob still doing well, with Ribs, and Compton hanging on for dear life. The rest of the draft class has been a wash.

 

 

So what is it? 9 starts? On the redskins among all the rg3 drama? I don't think that's a fair shake, not enough to say "oh its hopeless, he throws ints like crazy". Didn't he throw 4 in one game? I bet if he only threw 2 that day, many people wouldn't have that perception.

Not to sound snarky, but if he had thrown two instead of four, it would and SHOULD be a different perception. Four is MASSIVE. Four was enough to turn John ****ing Beck into a starter. Two is a bad day for an average quarterback, four is an awful day that nobody can debate.

[nick_sanchize]

I think it's more likely Belichick saw something in Brady and was betting on his potential more than any "balling out" he did. Take a look: 

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/2001/

 

The guy didn't throw a TD until his 3rd start and then "melted down" with 4 interceptions in his 5th start. For the year, he had a very average 86.5 QB rating. That's pretty similar to what we saw from Cousins...some good, some bad. Brady didn't turn into Brady until the following year. 

after the melt down,didnt he return with 3 touchdowns no ints in the next game?what about Kirk?you're right tho,the coaches saw something in him (Brady)to keep him around. And thats my point,we arent decision makers in the Redskins org,just fans of the game from afar. So if Cousins has potential as you say,why arent the coaches seeing that?i like to think that the coaches are smarter than us casual fans,although some of the things they do can be questionable

[TD_washingtonredskins]

after the melt down,didnt he return with 3 touchdowns no ints in the next game?what about Kirk?you're right tho,the coaches saw something in him (Brady)to keep him around. And thats my point,we arent decision makers in the Redskins org,just fans of the game from afar. So if Cousins has potential as you say,why arent the coaches seeing that?i like to think that the coaches are smarter than us casual fans,although some of the things they do can be questionable

 

Kirk's game immediately following the Giants debacle looked like this (vs. Seattle on MNF): 

 

21/36 for 283 yards and 2 TDs (0 INTs)

 

Seems pretty comparable to a 250 yard/3TD game vs. Atlanta

[MartinC]

**** I am in no way comparing Cousins to one of those guys, simply stating that struggling with turnovers early in your career doesn't mean your ceiling is Rex Grossman.

I totally agree that having issues with turnovers early in your career does not have to define you or your potential. However turnovers are not the only issues Kirk has, and not the one that really concern me the most (though they do concern me).

My big worry with Kirk is his performance on 3rd and passing downs. He was flat bad in those situations last year. I'm also concerned that his performance declines as games progress - he had much better numbers in the first half of games than the second half. Now that's last year. 6 games is not a big sample size and it maybe these are things that will improve with more starts. But I wonder if the reason for these issues, turnovers, poor performance in obvious passing situations, decline from 1st half to second half is not because Kirk just does not handle the pressure situations well. The 'clutch' game defining situations.

I don't know that issue - if that is the issue - is something you can coach or that comes with experience.

As someone pointed out earlier when your a mid round draft pick you have to make your case when you get the chance - he may get one last shot here one way or another. If he does I hope he proves me wrong and explodes making the job his for the next decade.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I totally agree that having issues with turnovers early in your career does not have to define you or your potential. However turnovers are not the only issues Kirk has, and not the one that really concern me the most (though they do concern me).

My big worry with Kirk is his performance on 3rd and passing downs. He was flat bad in those situations last year. I'm also concerned that his performance declines as games progress - he had much better numbers in the first half of games than the second half. Now that's last year. 6 games is not a big sample size and it maybe these are things that will improve with more starts. But I wonder if the reason for these issues, turnovers, poor performance in obvious passing situations, decline from 1st half to second half is not because Kirk just does not handle the pressure situations well. The 'clutch' game defining situations.

I don't know that issue - if that is the issue - is something you can coach or that comes with experience.

As someone pointed out earlier when your a mid round draft pick you have to make your case when you get the chance - he may get one last shot here one way or another. If he does I hope he proves me wrong and explodes making the job his for the next decade.

 

Great post and very good points. 

 

Assuming we all agree that the Redskins aren't challenging for the division this year, which QB do you think is most likely to become a viable starting QB? I believe Cousins is MORE LIKELY to improve over the next 16 games than Griffin is. That doesn't mean that I believe it's going to happen.

 

I give Cousins about a 1-in-3 shot to make the necessary upgrades to his game in order to claim the job. So, obviously I still believe we will be hunting for a QB next year. But, it's better than the 1-in-10 odds I'd give Griffin.

 

So, all I'm really trying to do on a rebuilding team is identify the best candidate for each job. If we can treat this season as a trial and give those candidates a full, honest opportunity to win the job we will know more definitively where our holes are.  

[RandyHolt]

You want Cousins for 16?

 

You'll get nothing and like it

 

[MartinC]

Assuming we all agree that the Redskins aren't challenging for the division this year, which QB do you think is most likely to become a viable starting QB? I believe Cousins is MORE LIKELY to improve over the next 16 games than Griffin is. That doesn't mean that I believe it's going to happen.

Well first my position is that I don't believe our QB of the future is currently on the roster. I would love to be wrong about that of course.

But to answer your question I believe that what is wrong with RGIII is he has lost confidence in himself (and maybe the confidence of his head coach as well). He is thinking rather than playing and second guessing himself on reads leading to the hesitation we see. My opinion is that on balance there is more chance of RGIII getting that spark that confidence back than Cousins learning how to handle pressure situations.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Well first my position is that I don't believe our QB of the future is currently on the roster. I would love to be wrong about that of course.

But to answer your question I believe that what is wrong with RGIII is he has lost confidence in himself (and maybe the confidence of his head coach as well). He is thinking rather than playing and second guessing himself on reads leading to the hesitation we see. My opinion is that on balance there is more chance of RGIII getting that spark that confidence back than Cousins learning how to handle pressure situations.

 

Interesting - but given your belief, I completely understand why you'd want to press on with Griffin. 

 

That's all I really want to see (and believe) that is happening - that the players who have the best chance to stick for 2016 and beyond are the ones getting the reps in 2015. 

[Reaper Skins]

Not really. If Kirk did actually do well, I'd be happy that SOMEONE panned out from 2012. What I want most now is a competent quarterback that we don't have to have yearly debates over. Plus, exlcluding our underwhelming QB class, we've got Morris and K.Rob still doing well, with Ribs, and Compton hanging on for dear life. The rest of the draft class has been a wash.

 

 

Not to sound snarky, but if he had thrown two instead of four, it would and SHOULD be a different perception. Four is MASSIVE. Four was enough to turn John ****ing Beck into a starter. Two is a bad day for an average quarterback, four is an awful day that nobody can debate.

I think if we develop him Kirk could be as effective as Eli Manning.  Manning has had plenty of terrible games and interceptions but because they built a strong team around him he was able to lead them to the Super Bowl twice.  He lead the league in 3 interception games with 5 i believe and had a game vs. the 49ers where he threw 5 interceptions.  Obviously he's not the norm but my point is that QB's who throw interceptions can be competitive if they have a well rounded team around them.  I think our wide receivers are at least within spitting distance to the Giants in terms of talent.  Big difference is that Manning wasn't afraid of being pulled every time he made a mistake.

 

That's ultimately who I compare Cousins' upside to.  A game manager who can run the offense efficiently and most of the time can get the ball into your playmakers hands.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Kirk Cousins will be the next Trent Green. He will come in after RG3 gets injured and play great the rest of the season and will go to another team next year in FA because he will not want anything to do with this franchise.

In fairness, skins wanted to sign green but didn't have an owner. So he signed in St. Louis, and once Dan bought the team we traded for Brad Johndon (a super bowl winning QB who we ran out of town, as it turns out)

But when Green hit FA the team was still held by the trust, so they couldn't really do anything.

[Taylor703]

In fairness, skins wanted to sign green but didn't have an owner. So he signed in St. Louis, and once Dan bought the team we traded for Brad Johndon (a super bowl winning QB who we ran out of town, as it turns out)

But when Green hit FA the team was still held by the trust, so they couldn't really do anything.

From what I understand the Johnson trade is what got Casserly fired. I'm good friends with a family member of Charlie's and Snyder told him not to trade for Brad but Charlie did it anyway. Thus, Charlie no longer being here. That could be completely false but that's the story Charlie was telling.

[Voice_of_Reason]

From what I understand the Johnson trade is what got Casserly fired. I'm good friends with a family member of Charlie's and Snyder told him not to trade for Brad but Charlie did it anyway. Thus, Charlie no longer being here. That could be completely false but that's the story Charlie was telling.

That's entirely possible.  

 

My point was more on the reason Green wasn't re-signed than the trade for Brad.  I don't think Snyder ever liked Johnson.  Which, in hindsight, was pretty damn stupid.  Given that he threw for more than 4k yards in 1999, and eventually went on to win the SB with the bucs.  

 

There are a lot of things that Snyder has done over the years that is just supremely stupid.  Firing Norv with a winning record and forcing Terry to start Geoff George is one of the stupidest.  Though Norv needed to be fired, the time to do it was after the season.  

 

Firing Marty, in my opinion, is the top of the list of stupid things Snyder has ever done.  Especially since it was done to hire Spurrier.  

 

The second on the list was allowing Griffin/Shanahan to tear the team apart in 2013.  He should have sided with Shanahan, and told Griffin to shut up, because "you just work here, man."  

[Skinsinparadise]

Kirk Cousins himself coming on 106.7 right now. And since someone mentioned Trent Green, he's on too at 11 am.  Maybe the radio guys are taking their cues from this thread. 

[Veryoldschool]

If Griffin sucks yet again against Baltimore I don't want him to EVER play again for the Skins.  He busted period.  It will be time to move on a give Cousins a seasons to show that he can become a quality starter.  The whole team plays better when he is in the line up.

[knowledge316]

Cousins will start at some point this season so he needs to be ready. Last year, he got his opportunity but ruined it and was relegated to 3rd QB. He'll get another chance this season and it'll be up to him to keep it.

[mexaskin]

I feel like the organization did a disservice to the fans by not having an open competition. The fact is that both of these guys are still young. 2012 was magical and I wouldn't trade kirk for any other backup qb in the league. We knew we didn't have any other options coming into the season. No team will part with a franchise qb. I think we do have the talent to be competitive if we can sure up the most important position. In my mind we are about in the same position the Broncos were when Payton came in. We can debate stats and ideas til we are all in the loony bin. We needed facts! We needed to know this year who was going to be our guy. The best thing the redskins could have done for themselves is create a strong qb competition. This would have brought out the best in both of these guys. I believe kirk and Robert would both be better qbs today because of it. Now We Have What We have. Maybe it will work out maybe not. In the NFL you have to be thorough to be successful and that is something we are not.