goskins10 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The ZBS has proven consistent when it works and if you can get yards and points without relying entirely on an elite QB, it makes things that much easier. I dont know why other teams haven't bought in but I suspect that like most things, it just isn't as easy to pull off as it sounds, which is why Shanahan is respected and regarded as a savant in that area. As to never winning us anything, we were well on the way until RG3s leg crumbled so I cant put that down as some sort of inherent limitation of the scheme. Regardless of schemes though, if this new guy can actually get the line to just block competently then I'll appreciate him. The ZBS works well between the 20ss. However, since it relies on spreading the Dline out and picking cut back lanes, when you get close to the line when there are 8 or more defenders close to the line, it becomes ineffective. If you remember, that was one of our consistent problems when shanny was here. We could get to the 20, but had a bad red zone off. A power run game will work anywhere on the field since you are actually pushing the dline off the ball. It's also much more demoralizing. I can't find a youtube, but there on the SB XVII DVD, Joe T. talks about being ahead of the cowpukes late in the NFL Championship game. Joe Gibbs called a sweep/roll out play. Trying to kill time. But Russ Grimm says no, we run straight at Randy White (I want to say the same 50 Gut that Riggins ran for a TD in the SB). They gained like 8 yds with Joe G. apoplectic on the sideline. The next 8 plays, no matter what Gibbs called, they ran the same running play, right at Randy White. There was nothing they could do to stop it. Joe T remembers it as one of the greatest moments of his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Reading a Tandler article just now and he reports that we ran the ball less in 3rd and short than most NFL teams and were not successful at it. Choosing not to run (or doing so by frequently trying to trick people with a full back hand off) seems a concession to the inadequacy of the line. Gruden can deflect attention from the line onto Griffin, running backs, and tight ends if he chooses and there is some validity, but the fact that he was afraid to run it on third and a foot and failed much more often than every other team when he went for it speaks to the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 If Callahan sets gruden straight on the importance of running the ball, I'll be tickled pink. Oddly, getting pass happy is what gets him into trouble. Tim Brown intimated that he gave up his huge running advantage over the Tampa Bay defensive line in the Super Bowl because of his friendship with Jon Gruden (and his dislike of the Raiders). Link. Jerry Rice more or less backed Brown up on this. Link. Same problems in Nebraska where they were beaten by teams at a physical disadvantage while the Huskers were throwing like crazy. Same problem in Dallas where they passed their way out of sure victories while he was calling plays. Anyway, he won't be calling plays in DC and from everything I've heard, he is one of the most knowledgeable coaches in the NFL. But I don't think he sees himself as a position coach. Between his friendship with Jon Gruden and the tenuous grip that McVay has on the OC position, it seems like a good place for him to land. I don't think it was the money at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3m0n Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Congrats on the new hire Skins fans. give it a few years and you'll have a pretty good line like the cowboys...not AS good of course LOL seriously though, one of the better moves i've seen your team make. BTW, don't expect your team to become more run heavy. BC is one of the reasons we were so pass happy 2 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Says who? A few teams are interested in interviewing him, but there are no guarantees. I'm just having wishful thinking that McCloughin can talk him into turning around the Redskins like they did the Seahawks. When it comes to $$ Snyder can outbid the Seahawks. Also if Gruden does a horrible job next season, Quinn would probably be 1st in line to replace him. I know it's a very, very slim chance of getting Quinn...was just merely throwing his name out here. Good grief! They're all billionaires. Any motivated owner can outbid any other owner, if they're so inclined. But if they're both inclined, then no, Snyder cannot outbid Paul Allen. His net worth DWARFS snyder. It's not even close. The crazy things people say on this board! Dan Snyder has a net worth of about $1.7B. Not bad, but most of it is tied up in the value of the Redskins. Paul Allen' net worth increased by $3B last year. He has a net worth of $17B. The Seahawks are pocket change to him - he only paid $288M for the team (at the behest of city officials who were worried that they were about to bolt), and they are now worth more than $1.4B. Both numbers from Forbes's real-time net worth generator as of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 So we're good with this hire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'm cautiously optimistic. That's saying a lot these days! My biggest hope is that he, along with Scot and Jay, does a good job of scrutininzing our current OL and jettisoning the dead wood. I don't want to see Tyler Polumbus in a Skins uniform next season, please!!! I agree on this. But Callahan might be able to turn Polumbus into a decent backup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 But doesn't it get yards and points? It looked pretty good when it was working here. Gibbs had that grind running game and all it really amounted to was Portis getting pounded into dust each week. Meanwhile Alfred, someone Im sure nobody dislikes but we can probably admit isn't as physically talented as Portis, goes ahead and breaks Clintons season record in his 1st year. Granted Gibbs/Portis never had the defense-freezing threat of rookie RG3 but even with that, I became a believer of the ZBS. I believe the point is it's only good at exactly what it's designed for. they players playing have trouble with anything else. Meanwhile lines like the Hogs get reputations as being the base of power running games, while at the same time the team sets scoring records, records for fewest sacks allowed, gets the first 100 catch receiver a decade before anyone else, things like that Free has been solid except for a stretch after his contract extension in 2011. And he's a FA this year - I'd be fine with Free at RT. For a bit, he was one of the better LT's in the league after Flozell Adams left. Trent / Long / Lichtensteiger / Leribeus / Free could be a solid starting line. Or replace Leribeus with Scherff if we can snag him in the draft. I'd be cool with it, there was just a period where fans around here acted like Free was the worst OL in the history of football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drowland Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Well say people pass on him for a HC gig and just believe he had a lot of talent on his defense. Also let's just throw the notion out there that Snyder has the money to make Quinn the highest paid DC in the league. He may want to prove to everybody that he's an awesome DC by rebuilding one of the worst defenses in the league the past 5 years. By doing so could give him huge credentials to be a HC. Make no mistake I know Fangio is probably the best we will be able to get. It would just be nice if we could get Quinn. Schwartz too (even though I can't stand him) It would be a lateral move for Quinn to come be the Redskins DC which means Seattle would have to give permission for him to leave. Seriously doubt they'd do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I also think the notion that the Redskins haven't been able to attract coaches is largely a fiction. I mean look at who we have attracted... they're almost all HOFers or people highly thought of. The only exception being Zorn. You are smart. If the Redskins want someone, he's ours. There is really no debate. The dopes who wonder who would ever work for Snyder fail to realize EVERYONE Snyder contacts wants to work for Snyder after meeting him because even if they don't, their wallet says they do. If the Redskins are in the running for Fangio and Gruden wants him, he is our DC. If Gruden allows it, he's our DC. All he has to do is say, "Dan, fetch" and he's ours. It's not really like there is any competition even if there are other teams interested. As with Callahan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Jay being skeered to hire staff that may be superior coaching talent to his own is another "questionable" theme that may take a rest if the Fangio/Donatello package is delivered. Jay beams limitations at this point more than excellence IMV, but I am not as down on him as many. I still think MS has a solid future in this league and he could have developed well here under differing circumstance. I sometimes wonder how the whole Shanahan days would have gone had there not been an RG3 available that year. Redskins/ES issues aside, I'm planning on having a great football weekend while not expecting verifiable news on this until next week., But it t would sure add substantially to my aura to get a confirmation early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 But doesn't it get yards and points? It looked pretty good when it was working here. Gibbs had that grind running game and all it really amounted to was Portis getting pounded into dust each week. Meanwhile Alfred, someone Im sure nobody dislikes but we can probably admit isn't as physically talented as Portis, goes ahead and breaks Clintons season record in his 1st year. Granted Gibbs/Portis never had the defense-freezing threat of rookie RG3 but even with that, I became a believer of the ZBS. It gets yards but not as many pts. But more importantly the players needed for that style do not fit anything else. If you notice because the lineman have to be smaller and quicker, they also have trouble pass blocking. As for AM breaking the rookie reocrd for yds, you can't minimalize the impact of RGIII. How has AM fared since RGIII has come back and not been the same running threat he wsa thed first yr? I am not saying AM is not great back, he is. But as you see his yards since that season have gone down since RGIII has not been there for the most part. You can blame play calling for some of that, esepcially this last year, but still. His average per carry has gone down too. Does the ZBS work? Yes to some extent, but only with the right players and only situationally (is that a word?) Where the power running game works anywhere on the field and you don't have to sacrifice anything in another part of the game. Last but not least, comparing the ZBS to the power game with AM and CP is not the right comparison. CP was injured during that preseason game and was never the same back. Had he been healthy I think it would have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathen Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 You mean had we not gone 10-6 and won the division? I think he would have been canned after that year. I sometimes wonder how the whole Shanahan days would have gone had there not been an RG3 available that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukes and Skins Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Says who? A few teams are interested in interviewing him, but there are no guarantees. I'm just having wishful thinking that McCloughin can talk him into turning around the Redskins like they did the Seahawks. When it comes to $$ Snyder can outbid the Seahawks. Also if Gruden does a horrible job next season, Quinn would probably be 1st in line to replace him. I know it's a very, very slim chance of getting Quinn...was just merely throwing his name out here. Good grief! I mean he's like the front runner for the Falcons job, and again why would he leave the Seahawks, who by the way can block the move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 They're all billionaires. Any motivated owner can outbid any other owner, if they're so inclined. But if they're both inclined, then no, Snyder cannot outbid Paul Allen. His net worth DWARFS snyder. It's not even close. For some reason people actually think Synder is one of the richest man in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 The ZBS has proven consistent when it works and if you can get yards and points without relying entirely on an elite QB, it makes things that much easier. I dont know why other teams haven't bought in but I suspect that like most things, it just isn't as easy to pull off as it sounds, which is why Shanahan is respected and regarded as a savant in that area. As to never winning us anything, we were well on the way until RG3s leg crumbled so I cant put that down as some sort of inherent limitation of the scheme. Regardless of schemes though, if this new guy can actually get the line to just block competently then I'll appreciate him. Been running the ZBS for years and I'm a big fan. But the game evolves. More teams (15 now) run the 3-4 than in the early days of the ZBS. The 3-4 puts more athletic players on the field which helps for setting the edge and stuffing the cut-back runs. Hence the Redskins running game always struggled more vs 3-4 defenses than vs 4-3. The boot game especially takes a hit vs a 3-4 team. In the ZBS if you're ahead of the sticks with the run then you can work your boot game and really give teams a bad day. But when you HAVE to pass having those lighter weight, athletic linemen can be a disadvantage. They can get knocked back more easily meaning you won't be taking many 5 step drops. When defenses know you have to get the ball out quick they'll just press your receivers and blitz. It's funny that now the NFL is going back more to the Power Gap Offense that Gibbs made famous many years ago. Where you block down play-side and pull your backside guard. I've even seen a little bit of counter-trey again. So why is it effective now? Because so many teams are 3-4 with athletic but lighter defenders. So now you line up your Hogs and pound on them for three quarters. Then finish the deal in the fourth quarter. Having bigger linemen on the offensive side of the ball now gives you the beef you need to establish a better pocket for the QB. I've been tough on Robert but even the other QB's had some issues with having their guards tossed back into their laps. If you want to see how effective it can be see Seattle and San Francisco. You'll also need bigger receivers that can block and break tackles after the catch. For now, bigger will be better for a few years. So the ZBS will probably take a back seat for a while until teams shift back to a bigger 4 man line. (Which would take a few draft cycles) Then when there are so many 4-3 base teams you'll seem some ZBS stuff come back. Almost every strategy you seen in football is an adaptation of something else. There might be some neat tweaks and wrinkles but for the most part nothing that new that doesn't have its roots in something done before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Khan Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I foresee LeRibeus having a second chance. Nothing wrong with big, mean guys. I met Josh a few times and I wouldn't call him a big mean guy. He kind of reminds me of Sam from game of thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Great post Thomas. The ZBS obviously works. Check Alfred's number with and without. I have thought Ward was the best WRs in the league when he played, for just that reason. Although, DJax does pretty well. Eagles would have beat us if he was still on their team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Great post Thomas. The ZBS obviously works. Check Alfred's number with and without. I have thought Ward was the best WRs in the league when he played, for just that reason. Although, DJax does pretty well. Eagles would have beat us if he was still on their team. Oh, the ZBS does indeed work. As I wrote though it's important to stay ahead of the sticks. When you do then you can run the boot game (except vs a 3-4 look). Even vs a 3-4 team though if you're clicking you can hit on some play action. The power gap game wears down a defense by pounding on them. The ZBS takes away their cardio by making a Defense run sideline to sideline. Eventually, players get tired and a good RB will see a gap and make them pay. So I'm not saying the ZBS will go away. Football is a copycat sport. Someone comes out with a tweak or unique twist on a scheme and if it's effective then others will duplicate it. Again, this also has to do with how teams are configured. With so many Spread, Read-option, and ZBS concepts in the NFL over the last few years Defenses have switched to lighter, athletic players up front. You never want to attack another teams strength. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended. ~Sun Tsu So, if your opponent is stout in the middle you will want to take away his cardio much like an MMA fighter with less muscle mass will try to fatigue an opponent with more muscle. (In 2013 with our crappy TE blocking - which continued this year - you saw Kyle add in more pitches to achieve the same effect). That is the ZBS method. If your opponent is athletic and able to run sideline to sideline with you then the best approach is to do what the Redskins did vs the Broncos in Super Bowl XXII. Yeah, Doug picked them apart but it was also Timmy Smith following those big Hogs right up the middle vs a lighter, athletic Denver Defense. The player I'm most excited for in switching to the Power Gap offense is Alfred Morris. Yes, he is a great one-cut runner that you like in the ZBS but he's not really a home run threat; which is what you'd like for a ZBS back. Alfred is at his best running thru a secondary breaking tackles. If you put about 10 - 15 pounds of muscle on him then he could be similar (although no one can truly be him) to Beast Mode in Seattle. Alfred has the heart and desire that makes Marshawn so good. Give him some more weight, let him get behind some big hogs up the middle and enjoy the show as DB's and Safeties try to tackle him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Acre Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 It's not very hard to coach up Tyron Smith and Zach Martin, though. It is if you forever draft the likes of Morgan Moses and Josh Leribeus instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Acre Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 It gets yards but not as many pts. But more importantly the players needed for that style do not fit anything else. If you notice because the lineman have to be smaller and quicker, they also have trouble pass blocking. That is not accurate. ZBS lineman do not have to be smaller. It's just that the kind of linemen who have the skills necessary to execute ZBS *tend* to be smaller since most of the big ones don't have the dexterity. Trent is not a small lineman but executes ZBS very well. You *can* find big ZBS guys if you are willing to spend 1st rounders on them. This is why I'm more than happy to spend even the 5th overall on a RT if he is a big guy (i.e., can pass block well) who can execute ZBS. The other way is to get lucky in later rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Robert Griffin Experience Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 There's a way to build a ZBS line with size and strength but you have to get creative. For LT, you have to get that Trent Williams/Tyron Smith athletic stud that can do it all. That's your cornerstone. For RT - you'd be looking at college or high school tight ends. 6'4-6'6, 280-290 pounds, did a lot of inline blocking. You can get those guys late in the draft and they bring more athleticism and fluidity than your average RT. However, you gotta look for guys with huge frames that can put on those 20-30 pounds needed to transition to RT. For your guards - you really want college OTs. Brandon Scherff is the model pretty much. Huge guy, monstrously powerful, lots of straight ahead explosiveness with enough athleticism for a ZBS guard. You can bulk him up to 330 or 335 and never have to worry about doubleteaming any interior lineman that doesn't have "Watt" on the back of his jersey. And there a lot of big, roadgrading college OTs that can kick inside. Center can kind of be found anywhere at long as they're not getting blown up at POA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 That is not accurate. ZBS lineman do not have to be smaller. It's just that the kind of linemen who have the skills necessary to execute ZBS *tend* to be smaller since most of the big ones don't have the dexterity. Trent is not a small lineman but executes ZBS very well. You *can* find big ZBS guys if you are willing to spend 1st rounders on them. This is why I'm more than happy to spend even the 5th overall on a RT if he is a big guy (i.e., can pass block well) who can execute ZBS. The other way is to get lucky in later rounds. Ohio State's line is a good example of big guys executing ZBS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 You know as happy as I am, as noted earlier in the thread, with this upgrade IF either Barry or Morris end up as DC it would totally sour Callahan for me. That would just reaffirm Allen's influence in continuing the 'old boys network' remains alive and kicking for one more year. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 For some reason people actually think Synder is one of the richest man in the league.Only in heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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