Rolling Stone: A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA

[Predicto]

To clarify what I mean when I say that this is a frat and bro culture problem:

 

The frat and bro culture may be stronger at UVa (and Dartmouth, and Clemson, and lots of other places) than it is at MIT, but this problem exists to some extent anywhere young men gather in groups.  And it's not just sexual assault.  It's hazing abuse, binge drinking, open racism, animal abuse, vandalism, fighting, etc.  Fraternities provide a very fertile breeding ground for these problems to fester, because they bring out the inner 4chan in young men, pressure them to conform, pressure them to cover up afterwards, and so on.

 

And if anyone outside the frat speaks out, they are denigrated as buzzkills, attacked as "politically correct" SJWs.   And if the university tries to do something about the frats, the former frat brothers who are now alumni threaten to cut off donations.  And the beat goes on.    

[PF Chang]

And the beat goes on.    

 

It's sad but easy to see how much our culture perpetuates all of this. Speaking of the beat going on, I think a big problem with under-reporting is that it results in future assault being taken less seriously. I've encountered this attitude constantly -- every girl is crying wolf because if they were really raped, wouldn't you of course go straight to the police? Which of course this attitude is a huge part of why many women DON'T report. It really is a horrible cycle. 

 

Just read an article (linked below) about rapes happening at an Oklahoma HS. It's another tough read, and there's a lot of similarity between these situations. Administrative incompetence and what I'd call sociopathic behavior from peers if it wasn't so common. 

 

http://jezebel.com/why-were-three-teenage-rape-victims-bullied-out-of-scho-1659721302

[Destino]

I agree with what Predicto is saying entirely.  When you get too many men in a group dynamic and things turn negative, the results are often bad.  Women also fall into negative behaviors in sororities, but they aren't comparable in terms of violent.  Men get violent.  Rape is seen as a feminist issue but rape and sexual assault starts as a male problem.  Men should be much more active in combating and most importantly, preventing it.   

 

It's a damn shame that there are no male focused national groups of any real influence that have any credibility among men.  I'm not talking about male rights, because men don't lack in political advocacy or rights.  Also, that term essentially means pick up artist serial killers at the moment, as we don't need any more of that ****.  Is there a communication pathway to young men through older men?  (Why can't I even type that without feeling creepy?)  Fathers seem less and less present and religions are still pushing double standards that do not help the situation.  So I guess that leaves... coaches?  I'm sure they'll lead us into a bright future with the progressive thinking common among them. 

[No Excuses]

A good option for what exactly? To punish rape with a school suspension or expulsion? What's next punishing on campus murder with having to write a paper and work at the coffee hut Friday and Saturday nights? Oh no there goes their social life!

 

I'm not disagreeing. I said on surface they seem like a good option for students who want to remain anonymous and not have to go through a public trial. This is probably the #1 reason why rapes are even more underreported at Universities than they are in just normal society. The fear of social humiliation is a big factor in students choosing not to engage the campus PD. The school judicial board fills this void (but not really because they mostly brush these cases aside).

 

Heres another one: campus PDs from my experience aren't all that effective or efficient. They had a notoriously bad reputation at my University and were bunch of lazy POS. And from all sounds, the campus PD at UVa was very difficult to deal with as well.

[ixcuincle]

People on UVA reddit calling the girl a liar. "Can the frat sue for libel?" 

 

Well what has the frat done that has responded to these allegations? Have they denied them? To the best of my extend no...but all I hear is about the girl's story. If they want to say it didn't happen, it was made up...I'll listen. I'm open to seeing both sides of the story. But right now this is decidedly one-sided against them. How in the world can you call her a liar? There's no proof and the only things we know are what she's said. This, combined with the mere HISTORY of these acts happening time and time again on campus, dating as far back as 20 years, should spark rightful outrage. 

[Elessar78]

What a sad story that article paints. I feel really bad for that young women (and all of them). 

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Something's fishy...

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/12/02/rolling-stone-whiffs-in-reporting-on-alleged-rape/

[ixcuincle]

The frat hasn't exactly denied that it happened, though. Do you expect the rapists to speak up? "Yeah, I raped her. I did it." 

 

What would they say? 

 

It does raise a few question marks though, but let's see where they go with this. This story could be made up. It could be fiction. It's been done before. But the frat hasn't made it known as such. And one thing for sure isn't fiction: the rape culture at college campuses.

[Predicto]

Something's fishy...

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/12/02/rolling-stone-whiffs-in-reporting-on-alleged-rape/

 

 

I skimmed the blog.  Not really convinced.   To me the real issue is how campuses deal with reports of sexual assault and how frats tend to breed bad behavior, not the details about this particular incident.   

[ixcuincle]

Exactly. Someone told me this on reddit when I went to talk about the issue there. People on reddit said it was libel. I told them are you stupid. Someone else said even if it's made up it brings awareness to the culture. Yes, it's stupid to make things up. Journalism should be about integrity and not embellishing the news. 

 

That being said, there were an awful lot of anonymous people in that story, but I can see why they had their name changed. They didn't want to be known on campus. But it also makes it easier to make up ****. 

[RonArtest15]

What's the purpose of Greek life?  Does it bring revenue to the school? 

 

I never had the urge to pledge or do anything along those lines when I was in college.  Nothing about joining a frat appealed to me. 

[Burgold]

What's the purpose of Greek life?  Does it bring revenue to the school? 

 

I never had the urge to pledge or do anything along those lines when I was in college.  Nothing about joining a frat appealed to me. 

The advantages of Greek life are connections and networking. The disadvantage is that it shares many of the same characteristics and faults of a cult.

[Destino]

Something's fishy...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/12/02/rolling-stone-whiffs-in-reporting-on-alleged-rape/

The failure to interview the accused, or seemingly to even be interested in doing so, is odd. That's the juiciest part of the story. Just who are these guys and will they say something stupid that makes them look guilty or horrible while clumsily defending themselves. There are 9 of them, odds are good that one gives a great quote. Plus with an accusation like this it's probably just smart to reach out just to cover all your bases.

That however doesn't really make me think it's all made up. She did speak to her friends and they did know that something occurred and described a major shift in the alleged victims behavior.

The frat hasn't exactly denied that it happened, though. Do you expect the rapists to speak up? "Yeah, I raped her. I did it."

Why would the frat deny it? If they did and it turns out that some if their members did do this it would make the frat look worse. The leadership has no way of knowing for certain what goes down with every member at every party.

[Bang]

This will sound awful, I'm sure, But I've been glad since the day my son was born that I did not have a daughter for exactly this sort of thing. I'd never get a night's sleep.

It's ridiculous the way young men behave these days.. i read that and it sounds like every old coot complaining about Elvis or Ozzy or Marilyn Manson,, but the overall lack of basic human respect for women and the willingness to be completely out of control for the sake of some high fives..  it's friggin' scary.

 

these are serious crimes, not Boys will be Boys crap. Group sociopathy.

the fact universities will try to sweep it under or keep it in house most likely has everything to do with what Predicto said.

 

I don't have any particular insight except to say I hope I've taught my young man better. I think I have. i guess I'll find out.

 

~Bang

[Elessar78]

The failure to interview the accused, or seemingly to even be interested in doing so, is odd. That's the juiciest part of the story. Just who are these guys and will they say something stupid that makes them look guilty or horrible while clumsily defending themselves. There are 9 of them, odds are good that one gives a great quote. Plus with an accusation like this it's probably just smart to reach out just to cover all your bases.

That however doesn't really make me think it's all made up. She did speak to her friends and they did know that something occurred and described a major shift in the alleged victims behavior.

Why would the frat deny it? If they did and it turns out that some if their members did do this it would make the frat look worse. The leadership has no way of knowing for certain what goes down with every member at every party.

Alleged rapists aren't likely to just start talking to a journalist. That op-ed piece says the author tried to contact them. It also says that the author tried to corroborate the existence of the rapists through third parties. I'd say there are some holes in the story because she didn't get any kind of statement but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. 

[Going Commando]

Makes me think the RS article was knowingly sensationalized that she didn't even try and contact the accused and was so dodgy about that in the interview. If that's true, then it does hurt the credibility of the article. But I also think there is enough other stuff that's good within the article for it to be important whether or not the gang rape happened as reported. And I do think that something awful and illegal did happen to that girl that the story leads off with.

[Sticksboi05]

To clarify what I mean when I say that this is a frat and bro culture problem:

 

The frat and bro culture may be stronger at UVa (and Dartmouth, and Clemson, and lots of other places) than it is at MIT,   

 

Actually all the Boston schools party at MIT frats.

This will sound awful, I'm sure, But I've been glad since the day my son was born that I did not have a daughter for exactly this sort of thing. I'd never get a night's sleep.

It's ridiculous the way young men have always behaved

~Bang

[Burgold]

Alleged rapists aren't likely to just start talking to a journalist. That op-ed piece says the author tried to contact them. It also says that the author tried to corroborate the existence of the rapists through third parties. I'd say there are some holes in the story because she didn't get any kind of statement but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. 

Yeah, you might get to talk to their lawyers, but there's absolutely nothing in it for an alleged rapist to talk to a journalist especially one that isn't a celebrity whose name is their coin.  At best, they try to exonerate themselves of a crime no one is currently charging them for and at worst they convict themselves and get themselves in deep trouble.

 

I've tried as a journalist to get these people and usually you can only get them twenty years after the fact, get their lawyer, or get them if they are on a publicity campaign of their own.  Most of the time, I failed to get them altogether.

[Going Commando]

Alleged rapists aren't likely to just start talking to a journalist. That op-ed piece says the author tried to contact them. It also says that the author tried to corroborate the existence of the rapists through third parties. I'd say there are some holes in the story because she didn't get any kind of statement but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

It says she tried to contact chapter leadership, not the alleged rapists. And when she was pressed as to whether she contacted them, she was evasive and ignored the question.

If she's writing a piece that leads with an accusation so serious and sensational, she needed to make every effort to get into contact with the alleged rapists.

It's a blow to the credibility of the piece. She and RS can say the real story is the UVA administration's inaction. And it's true that's an important enough story to tell on it's own. But the whole reason this article got the traction it did was because of how sensational the gang rape lead was. And she goes back to it throughout the piece. She didn't do the work on running that part of the story down.

[Elessar78]

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/sabrina_rubin_erdely_uva_why_didn_t_a_rolling_stone_writer_talk_to_the_alleged.html

 

Here's a link to the podcast where the author was interviewed. Yeah, the author doesn't do a great job building credibility in the piece. She uses a lot of "soft" facts and reasoning. However, I'm still willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and maybe chalk it up to that not every reporter is a good extemporaneous speaker or interviewee. She sounds a bit naive about the impact this interview would have. 

[GoSkins0721]

It says she tried to contact chapter leadership, not the alleged rapists. And when she was pressed as to whether she contacted them, she was evasive and ignored the question.

If she's writing a piece that leads with an accusation so serious and sensational, she needed to make every effort to get into contact with the alleged rapists.

It's a blow to the credibility of the piece. She and RS can say the real story is the UVA administration's inaction. And it's true that's an important enough story to tell on it's own. But the whole reason this article got the traction it did was because of how sensational the gang rape lead was. And she goes back to it throughout the piece. She didn't do the work on running that part of the story down.

 

I agree should should have made the effort to contact the alleged rapists. Or in the follow up interview explain why she didn't. But to me that doesn't minimize the original story in the article. Maybe she's just a poor journalist. 

 

The article really is as much about the alleged rape as it is about the UVA admins inaction. That the admin shut down the entire frat network days after the RS article was published lends credibility to the overall message of the RS article: there's a sexual assault issue at UVA that seems to be associated with the frats. 

 

I read quite a few of the comments on the WaPo article. If true, some of the posts from alleged alumni paint a very, very bad picture of the administrations view on campus sexual assaults and the frequency in which they occur.

 

One last comment, the lyrics in the RS article about the UVA song that is part of the culture is over the top. If that is an indication of the culture (and supported by the alumni???), wow, just ****ing wow. 

[Hooper]

Sexual assault is a big issue/problem... but the central case in the article screams BS. And I thought that immediately. 

 

I was in a frat. Didn't take it too seriously. It's just what you did at my school. And some of my frat brothers, yeah, I could imagine them getting drunk and maybe not taking no for an answer.

 

But ten frat guys gang raping someone? Laughing as they punch her? Her friend telling her she should have enjoyed it?

 

No way. 

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Rolling Stone has issued an apology and stated its trust in the accuser was misplaced.

[Hooper]

The central case in the article didn't pass the smell test. It was like a horror movie script.

[PCS]

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/a-note-to-our-readers-20141205