Rolling Stone: A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA

[Mursilis]

Same as it ever was.  This stuff, or lesser variations on it, have been going on at frat houses ever since frat houses began.   It's not a UVA problem.  It's a frat problem.  

 

There is something inherently wrong with putting a bunch of self-selected young guys together in a semi-secret society with its own house and expecting them not to revert to the worst instincts of male behavior.   20 year old men are too young, horny and terrified of bucking the bros before hos social order to govern themselves.  Putting 40 of them together in one place is just Lord of the Flies waiting to happen - which is why is does happen, over, and over, and over and over again.

 

I found the stat that a frat member was 3x more likely to sexually assault to be alarming, but not that surprising either. 

[Corcaigh]

You call them in and talk to them MAYBE.  They claim nothing happened.

 

 

Talk to them individually. Let them tell their parents what they are being investigated for. Maybe they lawyer up. Maybe nothing comes of it. Maybe someone is willing to have some regrets and some decency.

[PeterMP]

Not a single expulsion from school for sexual assault going back to 1998. This isn't the administrations "hands being tied". This is a blatant cover up to protect the schools reputation. UVa has basically allowed serial rapists to graduate and go on with their lives.

 

How many people at UVA have been willing to testify against a serial rapists since 1998?

Talk to them individually. Let them tell their parents what they are being investigated for. Maybe they lawyer up. Maybe nothing comes of it. Maybe someone is willing to have some regrets and some decency.

 

You can't tell their parents they are being investigated.  They are legal adults.

 

They might tell their parent they are being investigated, but they might not tell them anything.

[No Excuses]

As has Dartmouth.  And Kansas State.  And UCLA.  And Johns Hopkins.  And the University of Richmond.  And the University of Chicago.  And Florida State.  And Arizona State.  And Swarthmore.   At least 76 universities are under investigation for this right now, and its just the tip of the iceberg.

.  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/college-sex-assault-cases_n_5675564.html

 

This is really really disturbing.

How many people at UVA have been willing to testify against a serial rapists since 1998?

 

Are you really trying to argue that all the women sexually assaulted at UVA have been reluctant to come out and take legal action either through the school or the police department?

 

To the point that since 98, not a single alleged rapist has been legally reprimanded by the school?

[Destino]

I found the stat that a frat member was 3x more likely to sexually assault to be alarming, but not that surprising either. 

 

My dad has given a lot of hilariously bad advice but one bit has served me well.  He'd always tell me that humans suffer from an illusion of control and they think they can enter any situation and not have their decision making altered by it.  The point was that to avoid the bad mistakes you had to take great care to avoid the bad situations that lead to them. 

 

Guys that are looking to be crazy and impress other men with just how daring and manly they are never ends well.  Most of us have survived the idiocy that came from such a setting some, like those killed by hazing rituals, have not.  Combine alcohol, a sexually charged atmosphere, and the thinking that rape is funny... and you've got a bad mix.  I'm not saying we are all rapist in that situation, but I suspect many frat boys that ended up raping someone may not have done had they avoided that entire scene and never ended up in that particular situation. 

 

It's not enough to combat rape by demanding that rapists be brought to justice and that victims be supported.  Men have to be taught to respect women first and foremost, but they also need advice from older wiser men that get what it is to be a guy and the unique situations that we run into.  Men have to educate men to help combat the rape problem and part of that is to identify situations that make victims of women combat them or at the very least avoid them.  Group dynamics can be powerful.

[PeterMP]

This is really really disturbing.

 

Are you really trying to argue that all the women sexually assaulted at UVA have been reluctant to come out and take legal action either through the school or the police department?

 

To the point that since 98, not a single alleged rapist has been legally reprimanded by the school?

 

1.  We don't know how many have been legally reprimanded by the school, but based on the story at least one was.  We know none have been expelled.

 

2.  And yes, reports of rapes are very low.  Read the article.  How many girls in the story decided to go forward with any sort of legal preceding? 2 from the information given out of how many claimed sexual assaults?

 

(I count 8 total from my memory of the story.)

 

And there's not a single case in the story of the girl going to the police.  Think about that.  Rolling Stone is essentially suggesting that they've found 8 women at UVA that are willing to share stories that they've been sexually assulated in the last 10 years with somebody (2 didn't talk to Rolling Stone) and not a single one of those women have filed a police report.

 

**EDIT**

I shouldn't say much in general about UVA because I don't know UVA, but in general universities are all about limiting liability.

 

And expelling somebody carries a big liability, especially if you don't have somebody willing to stand up and say this person did this to me.

 

From the article:

 

""UVA is more egregious than most," says John Foubert, a UVA dean from 1998 to 2002, and founder of the national male sex-assault peer education group One in Four. "I've worked for five or six colleges, and the stuff I saw happen during my time there definitely stands out." For example, Foubert recalls, in one rare case in which the university applied a harsh penalty, an undergrad was suspended after stalking five students. Heated discussion ensued over whether the boy should be allowed back after his suspension. Though the counseling center wanted him to stay gone, Foubert says, the then-dean of students argued in favor of his return, saying, "We can pick our lawsuit from a potential sixth victim, or from him, for denying him access to an education.""

 

It has nothing to do with prestige.  It is about limiting liability.

Can I see that conversation taking place?

 

absolutely.

 

Which course of action is less likely to get us sued drive a lot of college administration decisions.

 

[GoSkins0721]

I'm not sure what the Dean is supposed to do.

 

Months after the fact with no evidence somebody accuses people of gang rape, but doesn't want to prosecute the situation even through the universities justice system, and certainly not to the cops.

 

From the piece, the Dean communicated the allegation to other people (to what end isn't clear).

 

But the university does have liability the other way with respect to the accusers, their rights to privacy, a right to an education, and liability issues.

 

I wouldn't at all be shocked if the Dean kicked up the ladder, the legal folks were brought in and that was the end of it unless she wants to take the next step.

 

And there is no way a University is going to start suggesting or advocating for a course of action here.

 

Before I re-checked the thread title I thought I was in the Penn State child abuse thread. 

 

The university should have turned this matter (and any other suspected felony) over to the local police. The university admin have no business being in the middle of this. If the woman meets with the local police & declines to file charges then it's over until she decides otherwise. 

 

We're talking about felony rape, not "he looked at my answers during a test".

[balki1867]

I familiar with the idea that you let the rape victim decide but all rapes are not the the same.  They are all wrong and horrible, I'm not saying some are good or anything so ridiculous, just that they are not the same.  In some cases I would totally agree with what you are saying, but the one detailed in this article I would not.

 

In this particular case her friends came into the situation very soon after she had been brutalized, not simply robbed of control, but literally beaten and tortured atop broken glass for 3+ hours.  I wouldn't sit someone down in that situation and go looking for a pad and pen so I can make a positives and negatives list of possible options.  They are hurt and it's not always evident how bad the damage is when someone is beaten badly.  Remember the girl in this article was also raped with a bottle, there could be serious internal injuries.  She can decide what to tell the police, but in that situation I'm telling the hospital people what happened because I won't have a friend die while we chat about how best to make her feel in control. 

 

Once a doctor checks her out and she's safe I'd be happy to support her to whatever degree she'd prefer, even if that's to tell me to go **** myself for calling 911 without her permission. 

 

The problem is that you and I reading the article have perfect information.  These kids didn't.  They got a call at 3 in the morning and they showed up for their friend.  At that point, we have no idea if they could see the shards of glass in her back, whether she'd even processed the full extent of what'd happened, and how much she'd been able to verbalize to her friends.  Its not like they showed up and she calmly told them, "Seven guys gang-raped me, I have broken glass all over me and one guy stuck a beer bottle in me."

 

My guess is they knew she'd been raped, but they probably knew very little otherwise.  Beyond that, they were a bunch of 18-year-old kids completely ill-prepared for what to do next.  Beyond the vague descriptions in the article, we have no idea how that conversation went: For instance, I have a hard time believing that a kid would get out of bed at 3am to help his friend, and then decide, "oh wait. I can't get involved; I was planning on pledging next semester." I'm not saying he didn't say that, but given that he at least demonstrated an intent to help out the victim, I'd give him some benefit of the doubt until I knew exactly why that comment even came out. People don't show up to help you out when you call them at 3am unless they happen to care about you quite a bit.

 

There's no question her friends could've handled the situation better, but I'm not going to throw them under the bus either.  They didn't have access to all the information we do as we judge their reaction.

[No Excuses]

1.  We don't know how many have been legally reprimanded by the school, but based on the story at least one was.  We know none have been expelled.

 

2.  And yes, reports of rapes are very low.  Read the article.  How many girls in the story decided to go forward with any sort of legal preceding? 2 from the information given out of how many claimed sexual assaults?

 

(I count 8 total from my memory of the story.)

 

And there's not a single case in the story of the girl going to the police.  Think about that.  Rolling Stone is essentially suggesting that they've found 8 women at UVA that are willing to share stories that they've been sexually assulated in the last 10 years with somebody (2 didn't talk to Rolling Stone) and not a single one of those women have filed a police report.

 

I'm not sure where you are coming from. Are you arguing that all rape victims over the years have declined to press forward with their cases either through the administration or police departments? The one real number in this entire discussion is the zero expulsions from the school. The school let rapists walk clean and graduate before all was said and done.

 

Here's the thing: none us know how these girls approached the administration or the police departments. We don't know how they have over the years gone forward with their cases. But I find it absolutely hard to believe that over the course of 17 years, all the women raped at UVa did not report their cases to school authorities. This is honestly a really weird position to take on this issue. It reeks of a cover up, which is why some of these schools are under investigation by the Feds.

 

I remember there was a website made by a parent of a UVa student a while back. Her daughter was raped, had gone forward to the school admins and the Dean was doing absolutely nothing months into it happening. Only by the website being made, did the Dean take notice. I'm not sure what happened with that case, but guessing by the article and how UVa (and other schools) have been doing their best to silence victims or ignore them, probably nothing.

 

Here it is, found the website. This part may help explain what the heck UVa is doing:

 

http://www.uvavictimsofrape.com/Honor.htm

 

UVA considers itself to be one of the finest schools in the nation, but they do have a dirty little secret – the University Staff and students support zero tolerance for cheating but not for rape:  The young man mentioned above was brought before the Sexual Assault Board twice (during his 3rd year, and again in his 4th year); the facts supported two separate allegations of rape against two young female undergraduates who were not aware of each other's circumstances. Although found guilty at the SAB, he was not sanctioned and remained free to roam the campus and prey on other young women before his final graduation date. Why did the Administration choose to protect him instead of the female undergraduates?

At a campus meeting held on 25 March 2004, the University publicly acknowledged (and was quoted in theCavalier Daily) that no one found guilty of sexual assault during the previous five years had been suspended or expelled from the University. In contrast, 38 students were expelled for "honor" offenses such as cheating or stealing in 2003. As of 2006, this statement continues to be accurate.  It is an unacceptable fact to learn that as the crime statistics for the number of reported rape and sexual assault cases continues to increase, not one person has been expelled from the University for committing acts of sexual assault at any time during the past seven years - even when found guilty by a Sexual Assault Board.

 

 

[balki1867]

My dad has given a lot of hilariously bad advice but one bit has served me well.  He'd always tell me that humans suffer from an illusion of control and they think they can enter any situation and not have their decision making altered by it.  The point was that to avoid the bad mistakes you had to take great care to avoid the bad situations that lead to them. 

 

This is so on point.

 

Whenever people ask the standard question about "whether you'd tell your son not to rape," my response is "absolutely."  I knew so many guys in college that were incredibly flippant about the nature of some of their hook-ups and I'd absolutely warn my son that no matter how casual those guys make it sounds, it's still rape.  I don't care if your buddy has hooked up with a hundred girls that way, it's still rape, and if you do it, you're a rapist. 

[JoeWolf990]

My dad has given a lot of hilariously bad advice but one bit has served me well.  He'd always tell me that humans suffer from an illusion of control and they think they can enter any situation and not have their decision making altered by it.  The point was that to avoid the bad mistakes you had to take great care to avoid the bad situations that lead to them. 

 

Guys that are looking to be crazy and impress other men with just how daring and manly they are never ends well.  Most of us have survived the idiocy that came from such a setting some, like those killed by hazing rituals, have not.  Combine alcohol, a sexually charged atmosphere, and the thinking that rape is funny... and you've got a bad mix.  I'm not saying we are all rapist in that situation, but I suspect many frat boys that ended up raping someone may not have done had they avoided that entire scene and never ended up in that particular situation. 

 

It's not enough to combat rape by demanding that rapists be brought to justice and that victims be supported.  Men have to be taught to respect women first and foremost, but they also need advice from older wiser men that get what it is to be a guy and the unique situations that we run into.  Men have to educate men to help combat the rape problem and part of that is to identify situations that make victims of women combat them or at the very least avoid them.  Group dynamics can be powerful.

groupthink

its how gang rapes happen, or genocide.

[PeterMP]

Before I re-checked the thread title I thought I was in the Penn State child abuse thread. 

 

The university should have turned this matter (and any other suspected felony) over to the local police. The university admin have no business being in the middle of this. If the woman meets with the local police & declines to file charges then it's over until she decides otherwise. 

 

We're talking about felony rape, not "he looked at my answers during a test".

 

Why should that burden be on the university?

 

Should her parents have to report it?

 

Rolling Stone?

 

They report to the federal government for statistics person and so there is understanding of how big a problem it is.  You want the best numbers you can.  Not having mandatory reporting of all sexual assaults helps.

 

Just like we want people to be able to anonymously about it with Rolling Stone.

[PeterMP]

I'm not sure where you are coming from. Are you arguing that all rape victims over the years have declined to press forward with their cases either through the administration or police departments? The one real number in this entire discussion is the zero expulsions from the school. The school let rapists walk clean and graduate before all was said and done.

 

I'm clearly not claiming that ZERO pressed charges through the university.  I clearly stated 2 did.

 

Here's the stats from the story from the previous year:

 

38 claims of sexual assaults turned into 9 complaints turned into 4 actual hearing through the university.

 

And that's despite the increased scrutiny on the subject.

 

Can I believe that in some years they have no official actions, yes.

[Mursilis]

My dad has given a lot of hilariously bad advice but one bit has served me well.  He'd always tell me that humans suffer from an illusion of control and they think they can enter any situation and not have their decision making altered by it.  The point was that to avoid the bad mistakes you had to take great care to avoid the bad situations that lead to them. 

 

Guys that are looking to be crazy and impress other men with just how daring and manly they are never ends well.  Most of us have survived the idiocy that came from such a setting some, like those killed by hazing rituals, have not.  Combine alcohol, a sexually charged atmosphere, and the thinking that rape is funny... and you've got a bad mix.  I'm not saying we are all rapist in that situation, but I suspect many frat boys that ended up raping someone may not have done had they avoided that entire scene and never ended up in that particular situation. 

 

It's not enough to combat rape by demanding that rapists be brought to justice and that victims be supported.  Men have to be taught to respect women first and foremost, but they also need advice from older wiser men that get what it is to be a guy and the unique situations that we run into.  Men have to educate men to help combat the rape problem and part of that is to identify situations that make victims of women combat them or at the very least avoid them.  Group dynamics can be powerful.

 

Everything you say is spot-on, but there are limits to the "educate men" approach to combatting this problem.  Some percentage of men (and I have no idea what percentage that is), know what they're doing is wrong, and simply don't care.  Those sorts of situations attract predators who don't care whether they cross a moral line.  Those sorts aren't going to respond to 'awareness training'.  Also, humans have a remarkable ability to convince themselves that their particular actions aren't wrong, despite objective evidence to the contrary.  Note in the article that the rapist "Drew" talked to the victim a few weeks later like nothing bad had happened.  He even wondered why she was avoiding him (her rapist)!!  He probably thought in his own mind that she had a good time that night, and couldn't imagine why she was upset with him.  At some point, women have to learn that some men are predators - not all or most, of course - but some.  And no one can figure out which ones they are until it's usually too late. 

[No Excuses]

I'm clearly not claiming that ZERO pressed charges through the university.  I clearly stated 2 did.

 

Here's the stats from the story from the previous year:

 

38 claims of sexual assaults turned into 9 complaints turned into 4 actual hearing through the university.

 

And that's despite the increased scrutiny on the subject.

 

Can I believe that in some years they have no official actions, yes.

 

And what did those 4 hearings produce? Maybe these cases are underreported because universities don't make it easy on victims to come forward and receive the justice that they deserve?

[balki1867]

Everything you say is spot-on, but there are limits to the "educate men" approach to combatting this problem.  Some percentage of men (and I have no idea what percentage that is), know what they're doing is wrong, and simply don't care.  Those sorts of situations attract predators who don't care whether they cross a moral line.  Those sorts aren't going to respond to 'awareness training'.  Also, humans have a remarkable ability to convince themselves that their particular actions aren't wrong, despite objective evidence to the contrary.  Note in the article that the rapist "Drew" talked to the victim a few weeks later like nothing bad had happened.  He even wondered why she was avoiding him (her rapist)!!  He probably thought in his own mind that she had a good time that night, and couldn't imagine why she was upset with him.  At some point, women have to learn that some men are predators - not all or most, of course - but some.  And no one can figure out which ones they are until it's usually too late. 

 

You're totally right that people like that do and will continue to exist.  I think the hope is that in the situation described in the article, this education would convince at least one of those seven guys to step away from the situation and decide he doesn't want to be associated with these guys for four years. Beyond that, if he's willing to testify as to what he saw, those guys and that fraternity as a whole would've been in deeper trouble way sooner.

[GoSkins0721]

Why should that burden be on the university?

 

Should her parents have to report it?

 

Rolling Stone?

 

They report to the federal government for statistics person and so there is understanding of how big a problem it is.  You want the best numbers you can.  Not having mandatory reporting of all sexual assaults helps.

 

Just like we want people to be able to anonymously about it with Rolling Stone.

 

 

They're best - and only - response to her visit should have been: Seek legal advice, seek medical advice, contact the police. Period.

 

Anything else being said is not in the victims best interest it's in the university's best interest. 

 

Edit: So I got to thinking more about this. Since the university police have jurisdiction over the campus, shouldn't they be contacted in all cases when an assault is reported? Does this require the victim to "file charges" to have the alleged incident investigated? Also, at what level does an alleged crime get turned over to local police jurisdictions? Who makes the decision to get local police involved?

 

Finally, at what point does the administration take steps, on their own, to investigate reported incidents (i.e., whether a formal complaint is filed or not)? Certainly a trained Dean can tell when a person is fraudulently claiming something occurred. 

 

Again, we're talking felony rape here, not somebody keyed my car parked on campus. 

[twa]

Not a single expulsion from school for sexual assault going back to 1998. This isn't the administrations "hands being tied". This is a blatant cover up to protect the schools reputation. UVa has basically allowed serial rapists to graduate and go on with their lives.

 

 

bit more to it than that....one of the hazards of playing court w/o govt inmunity

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/nyregion/new-factor-in-campus-sexual-assault-cases-counsel-for-the-accused.html?smid=pl-share&_r=0

 

 

At a moment when students who have been sexually assaulted are finding new ways to make their voices heard, and as college officials across the country are rushing to meet new government standards, a specialized class of lawyers is raising its voice, too. They are speaking out on behalf of the students they describe as most vulnerable: not those who might be subjected to sexual assault, but those who have been accused of it.

Photo

"Most of the time I’m looking to seal the records or have this redacted upon graduation so it doesn’t follow them around for the rest of their lives," said Andrew Miltenberg, a Manhattan lawyer who is critical of college sexual assault policies.CreditNicole Bengiveno/The New York Times

To do so, they have appropriated the legal tools most commonly used to fight sexual misconduct and turned them against the prosecution, confronting higher education’s whole approach to the issue, which they describe as a civil rights disaster.

[ixcuincle]

Not a single expulsion from school for sexual assault going back to 1998. This isn't the administrations "hands being tied". This is a blatant cover up to protect the schools reputation. UVa has basically allowed serial rapists to graduate and go on with their lives.

 

I was at work so when I finally got the chance to read the full article at home I was appalled by the lack of justice. A guy was guilty of repeated sexual assaults and he just got a one year suspension. It's ridiculous. The police should be involved. 

 

As I read this article I thought, the police will arrest adults for habitually raping women, and send them to jail. What makes a college kid exempt? They should face the SAME treatment. 

 

The article made it seem like UVA was a playground for these habitual sex offenders. They did it time and time again without punishment or remorse. They VICTIMIZED these women and hunted their prey like animals. They should have a ****ing red dot over their house. They're terrible people. 

[Sticksboi05]

It's astounding the amount of people who are lucky to have never been raped or molested or otherwise sexually attacked, who are so ignorant as to what it's like to be a victim.

 

The amount of "she should've gone to the police, she's stupid" or "why would she blame herself" responses are alarming.  This country has no f-ing clue about sexual assault and what comes along with it which is alarming seeing how big of an issue it is.

[ixcuincle]

In fact with all the awareness and publicity (I remember the Yale crisis a few yearsback) it's STILL going on.

 

It's just mind numbing how sexual assault is STILL so prevalent in this day and age. It has to stop. 

[PeterMP]

I was at work so when I finally got the chance to read the full article at home I was appalled by the lack of justice. A guy was guilty of repeated sexual assaults and he just got a one year suspension. It's ridiculous. The police should be involved. 

 

As I read this article I thought, the police will arrest adults for habitually raping women, and send them to jail. What makes a college kid exempt? They should face the SAME treatment. 

 

The article made it seem like UVA was a playground for these habitual sex offenders. They did it time and time again without punishment or remorse. They VICTIMIZED these women and hunted their prey like animals. They should have a ****ing red dot over their house. They're terrible people. 

 

Nothing makes the college kids exempt.  The person that was raped has to report it to the police, and the relevant authorities have to decide there is enough evidence to prosecute.

 

The standard of proof/evidence is normally less in the university judicial system.

 

And as I've already pointed out even there many women don't go through the process.

 

If we want to something about rape/sexual assault, it has to start with women being willing to report things to the proper authorities.

[ixcuincle]

But when they tell their friends their friends say "It's UVA Lyf" or "Go with it" or "It'll RUIN OUR REPUTATION". They don't care about her. They just care about the school and how bad it'll look if a school is known for a "rape culture". The article clearly states that this has been going on for a long time, but no one does anything about it. 

 

Rapes happen frequently in college, and that's the sad truth. The difference here, and the article made it clear, is that UVA has had a habitual culture and flat out sexual predators using young girls as prey for sexual conquest. And this culture is ENCOURAGED because the authorities don't stop it. 

 

Women can stand up. But they are advised not to. Credit to this girl for finding a support system because she was devastated and nearly thought about taking her own life. The humiliation of being gang raped by frat boys against your will...I can't even imagine how terrible that feels. The shame. I am glad she found the support group she needs. 

[No Excuses]

Nothing makes the college kids exempt.  The person that was raped has to report it to the police, and the relevant authorities have to decide there is enough evidence to prosecute.

 

The standard of proof/evidence is normally less in the university judicial system.

 

And as I've already pointed out even there many women don't go through the process.

 

If we want to something about rape/sexual assault, it has to start with women being willing to report things to the proper authorities.

 

This is a really cheap cop out argument you keep making for the school. When it has been reported, the schools have done absolutely nothing.

 

JMU had three of its frat students, ON TAPE, groping a black out drunk student without her consent, while she begged them to stop it. They then distributed this tape on campus. The student pushed forward the case to the administration. Their punishment was that after graduation, they could never come back to JMU. But they could graduate.

[Going Commando]

Great, there was a frat party at the location at the day and time.  Heck, it is a bed room at a frat house so there's sperm all over it.

 

You figure out who she's claimed that did it, but I'm guessing she probably has told them already

 

So?

 

You call them in and talk to them MAYBE.  They claim nothing happened.

 

Rolling Stone calls you.  You can't tell Rolling Stone that you believe her and have called the people in and denied it, or you are going to get sued.

 

Until she's willing to step up and say these people raped me, there is nothing anybody is going to do.

 

The university isn't going to suspend/expel kids for a rape when the alleged victim isn't going to testify about it because if they do, they will get sued.

 

From the university's perspective, there is no real recourse here if she's not willing to testify to it even in the university judicial system.

 

So no, they aren't really going to do anything about it.

This is why Universities should NOT be handling this. A brutal goddamn crime gets committed and nothing can be done unless the victim does it all???

That's ridiculous. A competent investigation should be able to move forward figure out what happened with or without a victim's cooperation. The University absolutely has a duty to make sure these allegations get investigated properly, the kind of spineless response you're rationalizing is unacceptable.

I'm sorry, but it shouldn't be up to the victim whether or not a brutal crime even gets investigated. It's a matter of public safety. What right to privacy do suspects and victims of crimes committed outside of a university community have?