Rolling Stone: A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA

[Predicto]

That crappy campus system is born out of our society's current way of thinking about the issue.... do you think they just made it up on their own, or that they're the only ones doing it?

 

You also think sororities are a bad idea, right?

 

I already answered that, didn't I?  

 

*looks up about 6 posts*

 

Yep, I did.

 

I don't think college age men are responsible enough to govern themselves in a single sex fraternity house situation.   Thus, I think colleges should not put them in that situation if they don't have to - and they don't have to, legally or morally.  

 

In the interest of legal equality, I would apply the same rules to sorority houses, even though they do not seem to have the same problems as male frats.  

[Popeman38]

I already answered that, didn't I?  

 

*looks up about 6 posts*

 

Yep, I did.

 

I don't think college age men are responsible enough to govern themselves in a single sex fraternity house situation.   Thus, I think colleges should not put them in that situation if they don't have to - and they don't have to, legally or morally.  

 

In the interest of legal equality, I would apply the same rules to sorority houses, even though they do not seem to have the same problems as male frats.  

You know what's interesting? This attitude isn't afforded to the military. There are 18-22 year old guys crammed in single sex barracks 365 days a year. 

[Destino]

You know what's interesting? This attitude isn't afforded to the military. There are 18-22 year old guys crammed in single sex barracks 365 days a year. 

 

Hasn't the military had a long history of hazing and sexual assault issues?   

[Predicto]

You know what's interesting? This attitude isn't afforded to the military. There are 18-22 year old guys crammed in single sex barracks 365 days a year. 

 

That's why I said "colleges should not put [young men] in that situation if they don't have to - and they don't have to, legally or morally."

 

The Military does what it has to do, as it should.   It also has a chain of command, accountability and real world ways of enforcing discipline and conduct that fraternity houses don't have.

[zoony]

I'm completely confused

[ixcuincle]

I want to add something given today's news that isn't a reference to the Wire. Although the Wire did have a story about plagiarism and bad reporting which you should definitely see. 

 

Rape is a serious issue in this country. Don't let the article with the reporting flaws change your opinion, make you say that "All young girls fake rape", or some ignorant **** like that. Don't do it. It happens too much and is reported on the news too much to just ignore the issue. 

 

Although this particular instance may be embellished, don't let this mar your perspective of other victims. Don't let the tragic pain and suffering they've gone through become some kind of irrelevant matter, just because some other woman fudged facts to a story, and reporting was shoddy. 

 

It is a serious issue, and only the most blind and oblivious would ignore it. Rape happens on college campuses at an alarming rate. This is not fake. Rape also happens in the military at an alarming rate, so often that the Pentagon recently released a report on it. This is also not fake. 

 

These are the two biggest issues of rape which are covered in the news. These are not falsified incidents like Michael Brown or the UVA case. These are real victims, real people. Always remember that. 

[Larry]

(The Military) also has a chain of command, accountability and real world ways of enforcing discipline and conduct that fraternity houses don't have.

But they both have "Thank you, sir. May I have another?"

(At least in the movies.)

[grhqofb5]

Sure I can advocate for their removal.   I am doing so right now.   Frat houses are a stupid idea, and they have no inherent right to exist on campuses, and no inherent right to remain same sex.  Colleges have the power to organize themselves so as not to have them at all, or to compel them to integrate women.  Many great universities in this country no longer put up with frats, including Amherst, Williams, Georgetown, Rice, Notre Dame and Middlebury.  Others, like Wesleyan, are making them go co-ed.

 

I also advocate for better security and crowd control at hip hop and heavy metal concerts.          

 

Damn, welcome to the republican party.  I wouldn't ever try to restrict someone's right to advocate for what they believe is right (at least to the extend that its within a person's right to "advocate" under the Constitution, i.e. if someone wants to come into a private club and run their mouth, the club has the right to restrict that).

 

Never thought you'd come around. Got a seat for you in the back row for now, but you can move up toward the front with good behavior. They still keep me in the back row, which I like because its right next to the door.  Derka derka der.

[grhqofb5]

In the same vein as the subject matter of this discussion, perhaps men could finally take a stand and start calling out the sex offenders among us.  I can tell you from personal experience that I have several male friends who have gotten plastered at parties in the college/your single bar atmosphere, blacked-out, and ended getting taken home by a fat chick. Something needs to be done about this.  No more joking around, trying to laugh it off, trying to claim that "nothing really happened" when your buddies ask you about it the next day. I know from experience how painful it can be.  I can't believe I'm finally talking about it.

 

We need to make a stand. After all, how can we possibly consent if we are blacked out drunk, in low light situations, and perceive something much different? No intent = no consent.  Let's make our move.

[Predicto]

Damn, welcome to the republican party.  I wouldn't ever try to restrict someone's right to advocate for what they believe is right (at least to the extend that its within a person's right to "advocate" under the Constitution, i.e. if someone wants to come into a private club and run their mouth, the club has the right to restrict that).

 

Never thought you'd come around. Got a seat for you in the back row for now, but you can move up toward the front with good behavior. They still keep me in the back row, which I like because its right next to the door.  Derka derka der.

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

In the same vein as the subject matter of this discussion, perhaps men could finally take a stand and start calling out the sex offenders among us.  I can tell you from personal experience that I have several male friends who have gotten plastered at parties in the college/your single bar atmosphere, blacked-out, and ended getting taken home by a fat chick. Something needs to be done about this.  No more joking around, trying to laugh it off, trying to claim that "nothing really happened" when your buddies ask you about it the next day. I know from experience how painful it can be.  I can't believe I'm finally talking about it.

 

We need to make a stand. After all, how can we possibly consent if we are blacked out drunk, in low light situations, and perceive something much different? No intent = no consent.  Let's make our move.

 

 

Story checks out.  Republican confirmed.

[grhqofb5]

Story checks out.  Republican confirmed.

 

This what I feared, and this is why so many of us have failed to speak out, have swept it under the rug, ignored it, tried to laugh. But I do not regret my decision to speak out. I will not be bullied into silence.

[Going Commando]

Yeah, they really screwed up when they handled the article the way they did.

 

Now they're blaming her? No accountability. I cannot believe people actually pay to read that garbage.

Crappy apology and all, this is something I don't see Rolling Stone living down for a long time. They may have drummed up a lot of publicity with the article, but their reputation will take a serious blow and people are going to get fired over this.

[chipwhich]

Story checks out.  Republican confirmed.

 

Another quality post by TTB

[grhqofb5]

Crappy apology and all, this is something I don't see Rolling Stone living down for a long time. They may have drummed up a lot of publicity with the article, but their reputation will take a serious blow and people are going to get fired over this.

 

Yeah, they're making quite a name for themselves, between this and putting the Boston Bomber on the cover of their magazine in a mink coat, rock-star style. This will make people want to stay away, right?  Right?

[LeesburgSkinFan]

I quietely floated this one around last week, but anyone who read that story could instantly know that it was a hoax. I am not downplaying the horror of date rape and how dangerous it can be to a woman on a college campus, but in this case it was so obvious upon reading the story that none of this could have happened in the way it was described. Gang rape is a capital offense in much of the south. That Phi Psi as a tradition kidnapped and brutally raped a woman every semester and that everyone knew about it ... I mean, c'mon?

[deejaydana]

Crappy apology and all, this is something I don't see Rolling Stone living down for a long time. They may have drummed up a lot of publicity with the article, but their reputation will take a serious blow and people are going to get fired over this.

They've been going downhill for quite some time. When they regularly put out commemorative issues entirely devoted to classic rock artists and the whole front half of the magazine is devoted to celebrity/papparazzi photos, they're clearly not what they used to be. They used to be a very legit counter culture magazine but their heyday was really from the 60's through the 1980's. Many have cited their move from their original HQs in SF to NYC as their official time of death. Their articles aren't written anymore for the intellectually curious.

[JoeWolf990]

Rolling Stone was great when they let Taibbi go in on the financial collapse and the people who caused it. Really eye opening stuff.

Its sad now.

Unfortunately this will obfuscate the very serious issue of campus rape, and what goes on at UVa.

[deejaydana]

Rolling Stone was great when they let Taibbi go in on the financial collapse and the people who caused it. Really eye opening stuff.

Its sad now.

Unfortunately this will obfuscate the very serious issue of campus rape, and what goes on at UVa.

Rolling Stone hasn't been great in decades buddy. The background of this article "should" result in the dismissal of top editors at the magazine for not vetting the author or her sources. And of course the dismissal of such a shoddy and fundamentally flawed "jornolist." Fortunately for them, at this time, publishing nonsense and false stories is not uncommon. One this is for certain: Rolling Stone is going to be paying a whopping amount of money for what they asserted here, as will the lady who penned it. (see how the magazine is already distancing themselves from her?)

[deejaydana]

I'm in agreement with this sentiment:

 

These stories are going to keep happening. They will have fall out. Other victims of rape may now be more hesitant to come forward. It may now be harder to get people to believe real stories.

But the cause remains greater than the truth for these “journalists”. Journalists used to believe truth was power, but now stories are. As the left becomes more and more levitical in their world view, showing no mercy and no grace, they have to develop a canon of scripture and stories to tell their tales and lay out the parameters of their faith.

That mythology comes with their own version of Aesop’s fables — stories to relate their morals. It does not matter that the rape at the University of Virginia was not real. Because “rape culture” is real and fraternity boys are silver spooned satans, the story has power. The left must continue building the canon of their religion, of which Rolling Stone’s bunk articles play a necessary role. It’ll get shuttled off now to the non-canonical works. But Lena Dunham can fill the void.

 

Link here>>>> http://www.redstate.com/2014/12/05/sabrina-erdley-rolling-stone-and-the-media-put-the-cause-before-the-truth/.

[No Excuses]

Oh cut your bull**** deejay. Citing this as some sort of left vs. right thing. Get out of here with this nonsense.

[LadySkinsFan]

I waited to comment on this particular piece of "journalism" because a lot of these stories are half truths, completely made up and so on.  I wanted to see if anything would come out about the research done for this piece.

 

I don't believe half of what I read anymore because they are opinion pieces.

 

I am also not saying that there isn't a rape culture, or that rape isn't a serious problem in our society. It is. These kinds of stories don't help.

[The Sisko]

I agree that it can't be resolved perfectly, and it would be scary if we had no privacy at all.

All the more reason not to put a bunch of young guys together in a big house run as a secret society, governing themselves, drinking lots of alcohol, and free to fall to the lowest common social denominator they choose. We know what results that often leads to (no, not always, not everyone, but all too often).

So what you're saying is that because there are some bad actors, the baby must be thrown out with the bath water? Why not just punish the individuals involved, criminally if need be and even banish an individual fraternity from campus when something like this happens? The kids might actually learn a lesson about rights, responsibility, and consequences. Well, that would require common sense, time and effort so, naaah, just dump 'em all. FWIW, using your line of reasoning, I could make a very valid argument that college athletics programs should be banned as well. j/s

Obviously I'm a Greek. I enjoyed and benefited from the experience greatly, and yes, that includes being hazed. In our case we had an off campus i.e. unsanctioned/informal frat house in which no women were raped, no pledges were killed or injured and plenty of alcohol was consumed but nobody ever drank excessively or got alcohol poisoning. We all knew that hazing was supposedly abolished in our frat and that underage drinking was illegal and we governed ourselves accordingly because we didn't want to screw up a good thing and have our charter revoked by our national organization or be kicked out by the university. However, more importantly we viewed the experience differently than "White" frats. For us it was more about community service, activism, having fun, future career networking and yes, campus street cred. What we absolutely saw it as not being was an excuse to lose our damn minds and act like fools and quite frankly, we looked down our noses on other Greeks that behaved that way. So I reject the idea that the vast majority of college aged kids can't act responsibly, at least within the bounds of what's legal and not totally stupid and immoral. It's just that nobody wants to take the time and effort to establish enough order to keep them in line and thus help better prepare them for adulthood. That's pretty damn sad in my book for the kids and more broadly for a society in which the solution to problems seems increasingly to be the curtailment of rights.

[ixcuincle]

Ultimately, though, from where I sit in Charlottesville, to let fact checking define the narrative would be a huge mistake. “These events undoubtedly do occur here,” first-year Maddie Rita told me. “And while this report has clearly had factual flaws as well as rhetorical missteps, there are plenty of other fully corroborated accounts not only at this university, but at every university around the country.”

Only eight to nine percent of sexual assault reports are later determined false. This statistic will not change, even if Jackie does lie with the minority. One of five women will be assaulted while in college. One case, however prolific, does not change how it felt to lie in my friend’s bed and have her tell me through tears what her “first time” was really like.

 

 

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/why-we-believed-jackies-story-113365.html#ixzz3LDupEie1

[grhqofb5]

Ultimately, though, from where I sit in Charlottesville, to let fact checking define the narrative would be a huge mistake. “These events undoubtedly do occur here,” first-year Maddie Rita told me. “And while this report has clearly had factual flaws as well as rhetorical missteps, there are plenty of other fully corroborated accounts not only at this university, but at every university around the country.”

Only eight to nine percent of sexual assault reports are later determined false. This statistic will not change, even if Jackie does lie with the minority. One of five women will be assaulted while in college. One case, however prolific, does not change how it felt to lie in my friend’s bed and have her tell me through tears what her “first time” was really like.

 

 

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/why-we-believed-jackies-story-113365.html#ixzz3LDupEie1

So now we have a quote from a first year (freshman 1st semester) providing insight into the rape culture at UVA. Heres what i found interesting:

"But I keep returning to one question. If everyone here believed Jackie’s story until yesterday — a story in which she is violently raped by seven men at a fraternity house as part of a planned initiation ritual — should we not still be concerned?"

The author here assumes that because no one openly refused to believe the fabricated story, that everyone must have believed it. She purports to to speak for the entire student body. Isn't also possible that there were a substantial number of students who didn't believe it, but were afraid to openly challenge the story due to the incredible social pressure involved and a culture where these young people are taught not to question victims of rape. Would you want to the guy to publicly offer that opinion? Would you like to branded a bully by demanding some sort of fair inquiry? Does every rape story have to come apart at the seams behind closed doors before a social presumption of innocence can be expressed publically?

Ane we have the sexual assault report stat again. Where are these stats coming from? Is it police records? Is it some sort of sample of university records? Are these convictions or reports? I'd honestly like to read the data supporting one of these studies, look at the definition used for assault, how the data was collected, etc.