Rolling Stone: A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA

[Elessar78]

Men in frats are three times more likely to rape women on college campuses. Rapes committed by frat boys are the primary issue in the discussion of campus rape. Also note that I'm not saying all frat boys are rapists.

 

 

Is this a real stat?

[Predicto]

Did the increasingly popular mindset of "believe the accusation because only 2% of all rape accusations are false." Play into RS's poor journalism? I think that's a fair question to ask. Any accusation of rape is treated as true because doing otherwise is putting the pressure on the victim "instead if the rapist" and "discouraging other victims from seeking justice". In other words, if you refuse to treat take accusations as truth then you are supporting rape.

Deadspin published an article a day or two arguing that Winston was not falsely accused entirely built on the argument that the odds of a false accusation are similar to being struck by lightning. I'm not concerned with Winston, but the logic that false rape accusations are so false that we should behave as if they don't exist is what I see as obviously problematic.

 

 

It's a real problem whenever it comes down to "He said She said."  Every single date rapist in the world says he was entirely innocent.  Sometimes they actually are innocent.    When there are no other witnesses, what do we do? 

 

That's another reason that frat houses are a bad idea.     

[grhqofb5]

I agree.  This article was terrible, and it will do a lot of damage to the worthy goal of making women more safe on college campuses.

 

And it will also do a lot of damage to an organization who's members were accused of a "gang rape," which after publication proved to be false. In fact, Rolling Stone and the author of this article had better pray that they don't get sued, even though they didn't identify the fraternity by name.

It's a real problem whenever it comes down to "He said She said."  Every single date rapist in the world says he was entirely innocent.  Sometimes they actually are innocent.    When there are no other witnesses, what do we do? 

 

That's another reason that frat houses are a bad idea.     

 

Better get rid of all other types of communal living arrangements as well then.  As most liberals would agree, its completely unfair to makes generalizations, such as all fraternities are gang rapists, or at least contain rapists, therefore they're a bad idea.  We know where that line of thinking has gotten us before...

[Popeman38]

And it will also do a lot of damage to an organization who's members were accused of a "gang rape," which after publication proved to be false. In fact, Rolling Stone and the author of this article had better pray that they don't get sued, even though they didn't identify the fraternity by name.

 

Better get rid of all other types of communal living arrangements as well then.  As most liberals would agree, its completely unfair to makes generalizations, such as all fraternities are gang rapists, or at least contain rapists, therefore they're a bad idea.  We know where that line of thinking has gotten us before...

Umm, they not only identified the frat by name, they showed a picture of it's house. Twice. 

[Predicto]

 

Better get rid of all other types of communal living arrangements as well then.  As most liberals would agree, its completely unfair to makes generalizations, such as all fraternities are gang rapists, or at least contain rapists, therefore they're a bad idea.  We know where that line of thinking has gotten us before...

 

Umm.... not buying it.   Especially since I went out of my way to say that there are frats with no problems and frats with no rapists.  

 

The problem is the predictable incentives and opportunities created by frats and frat houses.  

 

I said earlier in this thread:

 

"There is something inherently wrong with putting a bunch of self-selected young guys together in a semi-secret society with its own house and expecting them not to revert to the worst instincts of male behavior.   20 year old men are too young, horny and terrified of bucking the bros before hos social order to govern themselves.  Putting 40 of them together in one place is just Lord of the Flies waiting to happen - which is why it does happen, over, and over, and over and over again....

 

It is so much easier for the "he said she said lack of other evidence" problem to fester when the alleged crime happens in a frat house - where all the members are under tremendous social pressure not to hear anything, much less snitch on their brothers....

 

The frat and bro culture may be stronger at UVa (and Dartmouth, and Clemson, and lots of other places) than it is at MIT, but this problem exists to some extent anywhere young men gather in groups.  And it's not just sexual assault.  It's hazing abuse, binge drinking, open racism, animal abuse, vandalism, fighting, etc.  Fraternities provide a very fertile breeding ground for these problems to fester, because they bring out the inner 4chan in young men, pressure them to conform, pressure them to cover up afterwards, and so on."

 

 

All of that is still true, even though this person appears to have exaggerated or completely made up her particular story and conned a writer at Rolling Stone.   It may not be true about YOUR frat, but it is true about too many frats.  

 

 

[tshile]

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/a-note-to-our-readers-20141205

Heh...

 

there's so many problems with this it's unreal.

[grhqofb5]

 

Umm.... not buying it.   Especially since I went out of my way to say that there are frats with no problems and frats with no rapists.  

 

The problem is the predictable incentives and opportunities created by frats and frat houses.  

 

I said earlier in this thread:

 

"There is something inherently wrong with putting a bunch of self-selected young guys together in a semi-secret society with its own house and expecting them not to revert to the worst instincts of male behavior.   20 year old men are too young, horny and terrified of bucking the bros before hos social order to govern themselves.  Putting 40 of them together in one place is just Lord of the Flies waiting to happen - which is why it does happen, over, and over, and over and over again....

 

It is so much easier for the "he said she said lack of other evidence" problem to fester when the alleged crime happens in a frat house - where all the members are under tremendous social pressure not to hear anything, much less snitch on their brothers....

 

The frat and bro culture may be stronger at UVa (and Dartmouth, and Clemson, and lots of other places) than it is at MIT, but this problem exists to some extent anywhere young men gather in groups.  And it's not just sexual assault.  It's hazing abuse, binge drinking, open racism, animal abuse, vandalism, fighting, etc.  Fraternities provide a very fertile breeding ground for these problems to fester, because they bring out the inner 4chan in young men, pressure them to conform, pressure them to cover up afterwards, and so on."

 

 

All of that is still true, even though this person appears to have exaggerated or completely made up her particular story and conned a writer at Rolling Stone.   It may not be true about YOUR frat, but it is true about too many frats.  

 

 

 

 

Right....  Just like its true that at many hip hop concerts, you have fighting, abuse of women, excessive drinking, drug use, open racism, vandalism, etc. Not at all hip hop concerts, or at YOUR hip hop concert.  But it is true at too many hip hop concerts. 

 

We can play this game all day. Replace hip hop concert with "heavy metal concert" for any of you that believe my example is racist. Or for those who love Metal, replace it with "college basement party," or "nightclub." This is the problem with generalizations.  You can't provide a disclaimer, and then advocate for the removal of all fraternities and frat houses, or whatever.

[tshile]

It's a real problem whenever it comes down to "He said She said."  Every single date rapist in the world says he was entirely innocent.  Sometimes they actually are innocent.    When there are no other witnesses, what do we do? 

 

That's another reason that frat houses are a bad idea.     

 

You bring up a good point.

 

My first suggestion would be to stop assuming that the man is always guilty and the woman is always telling the truth. Let the facts speak for themselves. When there are not enough facts, don't just take a side.

 

But that doesn't generate clicks or ratings, and it certainly doesn't give the Righteous on the internet a cause to rally around.

[Predicto]

You bring up a good point.

 

My first suggestion would be to stop assuming that the man is always guilty and the woman is always telling the truth. Let the facts speak for themselves. When there are not enough facts, don't just take a side.

 

 

 

 

That is mostly what we do as a society.   Date rapists are almost never convicted, because "her story" is not inherently more believable than "his story" without other evidence, and we all must be deemed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.   Which is how it has to be.  

[Destino]

It's a real problem whenever it comes down to "He said She said."  Every single date rapist in the world says he was entirely innocent.  Sometimes they actually are innocent.    When there are no other witnesses, what do we do? 

 

That's another reason that frat houses are a bad idea.     

 

I don't see any easy way to handle that situation and it's sad.  Until technology gives us lie detecting technology that is strong enough for courts to consider or we have cameras watching us every minute of every day these situations are going to be nearly impossible to resolve fairly and reliably.  I'm worried that attempts to improve the system are going to push forward like the Patriot Act did, in a rush to do something just to show that we are trying, allowing bad ideas to become law that don't actually resolve the central problem which you described. 

[Popeman38]

Uni justice is a joke. Cops def should be involved and those accused must be held accountable for thir actions

No. Those convicted must be held accountable.

[tshile]

That is mostly what we do as a society.   Date rapists are almost never convicted, because "her story" is not inherently more believable than "his story" without other evidence, and we all must be deemed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.   Which is how it has to be.  

 

No, that's what we do as a legal system.

 

As a society we glob onto whatever makes us feel good about ourselves, then run around telling everyone else they need to feel the same way.

 

We wonder why RollingStone does this? Or why so many media outlets behave the same what about whatever subjects they care to (political, mostly; CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, even the newspapers)?

 

Because so many people *want* it. It's sad.

[Predicto]

Right....  Just like its true that at many hip hop concerts, you have fighting, abuse of women, excessive drinking, drug use, open racism, vandalism, etc. Not at all hip hop concerts, or at YOUR hip hop concert.  But it is true at too many hip hop concerts. 

 

We can play this game all day. Replace hip hop concert with "heavy metal concert" for any of you that believe my example is racist. Or for those who love Metal, replace it with "college basement party," or "nightclub." This is the problem with generalizations.  You can't provide a disclaimer, and then advocate for the removal of all fraternities and frat houses, or whatever.

 

Sure I can advocate for their removal.   I am doing so right now.   Frat houses are a stupid idea, and they have no inherent right to exist on campuses, and no inherent right to remain same sex.  Colleges have the power to organize themselves so as not to have them at all, or to compel them to integrate women.  Many great universities in this country no longer put up with frats, including Amherst, Williams, Georgetown, Rice, Notre Dame and Middlebury.  Others, like Wesleyan, are making them go co-ed.

 

I also advocate for better security and crowd control at hip hop and heavy metal concerts.          

[tshile]

Sure I can advocate for their removal.   I am doing so right now.   Frat houses are a stupid idea, and they have no inherent right to exist on campuses, and no inherent right to remain same sex.  Colleges have the power to organize themselves so as not to have them at all, or to compel them to integrate women.  Many great universities in this country no longer put up with frats, including Amherst, Williams, Georgetown, Rice, Notre Dame and Middlebury.  Others, like Wesleyan, are making them go co-ed.

 

I also advocate for better security and crowd control at hip hop and heavy metal concerts.          

 

So you advocate getting rid of all sororities as well?

[Going Commando]

I really want to know the discrepancies now. RS needs to go in detail how they fact-checked this story in the first place.

Agreed, and me too. The cynic in me thinks they knew full well about the low standards of the article and all of the problems in the gang rape story but ran it anyway to sensationalize the piece and make it go viral. Shoot first and issue apologies later. Throw the girl under the bus when the time comes. We'll come out ahead in the end.

[Predicto]

I don't see any easy way to handle that situation and it's sad.  Until technology gives us lie detecting technology that is strong enough for courts to consider or we have cameras watching us every minute of every day these situations are going to be nearly impossible to resolve fairly and reliably.  I'm worried that attempts to improve the system are going to push forward like the Patriot Act did, in a rush to do something just to show that we are trying, allowing bad ideas to become law that don't actually resolve the central problem which you described. 

 

I agree that it can't be resolved perfectly, and it would be scary if we had no privacy at all.

 

All the more reason not to put a bunch of young guys together in a big house run as a secret society, governing themselves, drinking lots of alcohol, and free to fall to the lowest common social denominator they choose.   We know what results that often leads to (no, not always, not everyone, but all too often). 

So you advocate getting rid of all sororities as well?

 

Sure.  I'm all for equality.

[tshile]

Agreed, and me too. The cynic in me thinks they knew full well about the low standards of the article and all of the problems in the gang rape story but ran it anyway to sensationalize the piece and make it go viral. Shoot first and issue apologies later. Throw the girl under the bus when the time comes. We'll come out ahead in the end.

 

Yeah, they really screwed up when they handled the article the way they did.

 

Now they're blaming her? No accountability. I cannot believe people actually pay to read that garbage.

[Predicto]

No, that's what we do as a legal system.

 

As a society we glob onto whatever makes us feel good about ourselves, then run around telling everyone else they need to feel the same way.

 

We wonder why RollingStone does this? Or why so many media outlets behave the same what about whatever subjects they care to (political, mostly; CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, even the newspapers)?

 

Because so many people *want* it. It's sad.

 

In this particular case, it also might be because so many of us personally know women who suffered abuse at frat houses.   Speaking for myself, anyway. 

[Gbnwi_212]

Thanks a lot, Rolling Stone.  Just going to keep more and more people hiding it when they're actually raped.  ****. 

 

When I was in high school, one of my best friends was raped.  In the same week, one of my best friends was accused of raping someone.  The second friend was innocent, and that girl was basically got away with crying rape after having consensual sex. 

 

Unfortunately, this happened right before my first friend was actually raped.  And because of what had happened earlier in the week, she never pressed charges.  She was afraid everyone would call her a liar, and the police also strong-armed her into not filing for those reasons.  It wasn't me, but I felt horribly helpless as she told me that she ultimately decided there was nothing she could do. 

 

I was so glad that was my last year of high school, because every time I saw that girl who cried rape, it was everything I could do not to go off on her. 

[Destino]

I agree that it can't be resolved perfectly, and it would be scary if we had no privacy at all.

 

All the more reason not to put a bunch of young guys together in a big house run as a secret society, governing themselves, drinking lots of alcohol, and free to fall to the lowest common social denominator they choose.   We know what results that often leads to (no, not always, not everyone, but all too often). 

 

No argument with you there Predicto, I commented on the dangerous group dynamics that can happen when you put a bunch of guys in close quarters under the same banner (figuratively, or literally) and they start trying to prove themselves earlier in this thread. 

[tshile]

In this particular case, it also might be because so many of us personally know women who suffered abuse at frat houses.   Speaking for myself, anyway. 

 

As do I. The person I know was lucky and was saved by a pledge of the frat before whoever drugged her could do what they wanted to. It was never clear who drugged her, it was not a frat-only party.

 

But that has nothing to do with the knee-jerk reaction we have as a society these days. Especially when it's a woman accusing a man of sexual assault related issues.

 

Do you think that stories like this one play into the fact that women that are actual victims of sexual assault are inclined to not report it and deal with it on their own? Because I do... and where's the punishment for rollingstone? There is none. And while everyone will spend the next few days talking about how awful they are, there will be no punishment in the end. Because people don't actually care enough to refuse to read their magazine over it, at least not enough will for there to be an impact.

Another incident at another university where the male was expelled because the evidence that suggested it was not date rape was completely ignored, including multiple conversations (documented because they occurred on facebook) between the two parties going well after the incident - http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/17/guilty-until-proven-innocent

 

At stanford the people that are picked to be a part of the sexual assault tribunals are trained.

 

Part of their training...

"...suggested college adjudicators should interpret an accused student who presented his defense logically and persuasively as a sign of guilt."

 

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/2013/08/the_dubious_rape_trial_at_vass/

 

That's right. If you're accused of rape at Stanford and you present your defense in a 'logical and persuasive' way then that is a sign of guilt.

 

Sounds like an awesome system.

[Destino]

Harvard had it's policy opposed by 28 members of it's law school faculty.

 

 

Among our many concerns are the following:

 

Harvard has adopted procedures for deciding cases of alleged sexual misconduct which lack the most basic elements of fairness and due process, are overwhelmingly stacked against the accused, and are in no way required by Title IX law or regulation. Here our concerns include but are not limited to the following:

 

■ The absence of any adequate opportunity to discover the facts charged and to confront witnesses and present a defense at an adversary hearing.

■ The lodging of the functions of investigation, prosecution, fact-finding, and appellate review in one office, and the fact that that office is itself a Title IX compliance office rather than an entity that could be considered structurally impartial.

■ The failure to ensure adequate representation for the accused, particularly for students unable to afford representation.

 

Harvard has inappropriately expanded the scope of forbidden conduct, including by:

 

■ Adopting a definition of sexual harassment that goes significantly beyond Title IX and Title VII law.

■ Adopting rules governing sexual conduct between students both of whom are impaired or incapacitated, rules which are starkly one-sided as between complainants and respondents, and entirely inadequate to address the complex issues in these unfortunate situations involving extreme use and abuse of alcohol and drugs by our students.

[Predicto]

 

 

Sounds like an awesome system.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not trying to defend some crappy campus adjucatory system.   I still am suggesting that frats are a bad idea.  

[tshile]

Yeah, I'm not trying to defend some crappy campus adjucatory system.   I still am suggesting that frats are a bad idea.  

 

That crappy campus system is born out of our society's current way of thinking about the issue.... do you think they just made it up on their own, or that they're the only ones doing it?

 

You also think sororities are a bad idea, right?

[ixcuincle]