Rolling Stone: A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA

[ixcuincle]

Frats getting really bad reputation lately. Somekid died at wvu too

Rip kid

[ixcuincle]

I'm at work seething over this and I've only just read the quote. Absolutely reprehensible.

And it should piss y'all off. Do you know how many rapes go on which are just dismissed. Do you know how many unopened rape kits the police have in some cities.

Rape is reprehensible, a despicable and dirty crime. It should fill you with seethe and rage how rape is FORGOTTEN or glossed over for political purposes.

[Mursilis]

Frats getting really bad reputation lately. Somekid died at wvu too

 

Lately?  It's been over 20 years since I graduated undergraduate, and they didn't have a great rep back then, either. 

[JoeWolf990]

The reaction of her friends make me want to punch them in the face repeatedly while screaming "what the **** is wrong you?!"  Is that weird?

that sickened me so much

the other thing that bothers me is if I unknowingly knew someone who was raped? A person who had one disposition one day, then an event happens and they are a totally different person. That happened a few times at UMD, and I never thought twice about it. Now, I am.

[Mursilis]

I'm at work seething over this and I've only just read the quote. Absolutely reprehensible.

And it should piss y'all off. Do you know how many rapes go on which are just dismissed. Do you know how many unopened rape kits the police have in some cities.

Rape is reprehensible, a despicable and dirty crime. It should fill you with seethe and rage how rape is FORGOTTEN or glossed over for political purposes.

 

It does anger me.  I have three daughters, and I'm not happy about this world in which they'll be living.  Want to get even angrier?  Watch the documentary "The Invisible War" about rape in the service.  It's more of the same. 

[balki1867]

It sounds like one male wanted her to go to the hospital right away. Her female friend and the other male were the ones that immediately worried about the impact on their social life. All three failed her.

If have just called 911.

What her "friends" did was install doubt and guilt. They shamed her and made her consider the consequences to others immediately after being gang raped.

Just imagine if you came home to find your house being robbed and you saw and recognized the thief as he runs off with your stuff. Your neighbor sees you in distress outside and the first thing your neighbor says is "if you report this the whole neighborhood is going to be devalued and people will hate you." I'm pretty sure most guys would have some choice words for an ***hole that said something like that to them.

Rape is a million times worse and yet people, and even cops themselves, do this routinely to rape victims.

 

FWIW, when I was a freshman in college, every freshman was required to take part in a seminar on rape.  One of the things they told us there was that if you know someone who's just been victimized, you shouldn't necessarily start deciding the next course of actions-- she's just been through a traumatic experience where she was robbed of that control, and its really your job to be supportive of whatever she deems to be the right course of action.  

 

Ideally I would love for every one of those scumbags to get their just punishment.  (When the article cites that these incidents are typically caused by serial offenders, think of all the rapes that could be prevented).  But realistically forcing someone to go to the cops, a trial, etc., has to be incredibly traumatizing as they have to relive the incident over and over.

 

I don't think her friends are bad people (they still came out and tried to help a girl they'd known for weeks at 3am), but they were completely incapable of dealing with that situation.

[GoSkins0721]

Appalling. Hopefully, UVA will be investigated inside & out by the justice system to get to the bottom of every reported incident. 

 

At what point does the national fraternity system (whatever the hell its called) step in to investigate and shut these houses down? 

[ixcuincle]

Rape culture exists to an extent in military and college. Then people get mad when that term is used. But it IS going on.

[JoeWolf990]

FWIW, when I was a freshman in college, every freshman was required to take part in a seminar on rape.  One of the things they told us there was that if you know someone who's just been victimized, you shouldn't necessarily start deciding the next course of actions-- she's just been through a traumatic experience where she was robbed of that control, and its really your job to be supportive of whatever she deems to be the right course of action.  

 

Ideally I would love for every one of those scumbags to get their just punishment.  (When the article cites that these incidents are typically caused by serial offenders, think of all the rapes that could be prevented).  But realistically forcing someone to go to the cops, a trial, etc., has to be incredibly traumatizing as they have to relive the incident over and over.

 

I don't think her friends are bad people (they still came out and tried to help a girl they'd known for weeks at 3am), but they were completely incapable of dealing with that situation.

while you are right about not forcing a victim into a decision, they actually did force her to do something. They forced her not to tell and then shunned her.

[twa]

Rape culture exists to an extent in military and college. Then people get mad when that term is used. But it IS going on.

 

exists everywhere,  the group dynamics are simply more prevalent in those as is immaturity and abuse of position/authority

[balki1867]

At what point does the national fraternity system (whatever the hell its called) step in to investigate and shut these houses down? 

 

I was in a fraternity in college and typically the national organization doesn't get involved until there's an incident.  Theres no sort of audit trail to pre-emptively figure out if things like this (or hazing) are going on before they become national news.  That's partly by design (basically a "dont ask, dont tell" sort of situation) because they don't want to know, and partly because most of these guys at the national level are more concerned with padding their resumes with bullets about "expanding the national organization by X chapters" or "fundraising Y dollars" as they look for their next job in academia.

 

This is more egregious than most PR situations that fraternities get into (by many magnitudes), so I'm guessing this house gets shut down, but more typically theres usually not more than a slap on the wrist or some sort of mandatory one-hour seminar all the guys are required to take where they're reminded about why hazing is bad or why alcohol is bad.

while you are right about not forcing a victim into a decision, they actually did force her to do something. They forced her not to tell and then shunned her.

 

I agree with you 100%.  I was just pointing out that going straight to the hospital/cops isn't always the right thing to do either.

 

I'm not trying to excuse the friends but all things considered (a fraternity that can gang-rape with no consequences, a nationally recognized University that's incapable of giving justice to a victim of a brutal rape), I'm not going to dwell on their actions that night-- they definitely should've responded better, but they were also in over their head bigtime. They rightfully showed up to help a distressed friend at 3am but really had no idea what to do beyond that.

[balki1867]

Another thought:  UVa is not a huge school (~6-7k undergrads total, i think).  It's only a matter of days until someone does some basic logic and figures out what guys in that house have graduated in the past 2 years and worked as a campus lifeguard.  This guy is about to (rightfully) have his life ruined.

[JoeWolf990]

Another thought:  UVa is not a huge school (~6-7k undergrads total, i think).  It's only a matter of days until someone does some basic logic and figures out what guys in that house have graduated in the past 2 years and worked as a campus lifeguard.  This guy is about to (rightfully) have his life ruined.

some figuring out have already been made

http://www.nbc29.com/story/27439468/uva-fraternity-house-vandalized

[PF Chang]

while you are right about not forcing a victim into a decision, they actually did force her to do something. They forced her not to tell and then shunned her.

 

That's not true, and I think it's an important distinction. The people involved in this incident didn't force her to not press charges/tell. What they did imo is worse. They simply demonstrated that in their opinion, telling the truth would be costly. Could ruin everyone's fun. And that preserving that is way more important than worrying about some pesky rape situation. The attitude of "Oh I don't know... are you SURE you wanna do that? I sure wouldn't..." 

 

It would be like getting stabbed at a party, obviously wanting to leave, and everybody saying "dude, don't get us kicked out of here, go bleed quietly by yourself." I cannot imagine how low I'd feel. 

 

I agree with the point that you're making, that she was coerced into not telling. Unequivocally I never want to hear someone tell a rape victim "you should have done X." That being said I think it is important that society emphasizes that you CAN tell. That it's not social suicide. I think it is dangerous for women to believe that they cannot tell or press charges, or that a negative opinion means you were forced to keep quiet. Men need to be held accountable and the long delays in reporting are letting them off the hook. 

 

It's clear that so many rapes go unreported due to these social pressures. And it's not surprising, just look at the Steubenville rape and the way that victim was treated. I think society has to ensure that despite all of that negativity, there are ways to protect you when you do tell. I say all this because the alternative appears to be this situation. She didn't think she could tell, and as a result she got nothing but detrimental support and the message that this wasn't a big deal or worth fighting. 

[ixcuincle]

While talking I remembered a similar case in Yale where a girl was raped and there was no justice. It happens all over.

It's so infuriating.

[PeterMP]

Or that the Dean she spoke to wouldn't pursue a story of gang rape even without the victim's full participation. This story is so far removed from a drunken "he said, she said" hookup that got out of hand. 

 

That said, UVa certainly has issues.

 

I'm not sure what the Dean is supposed to do.

 

Months after the fact with no evidence somebody accuses people of gang rape, but doesn't want to prosecute the situation even through the universities justice system, and certainly not to the cops.

 

From the piece, the Dean communicated the allegation to other people (to what end isn't clear).

 

But the university does have liability the other way with respect to the accusers, their rights to privacy, a right to an education, and liability issues.

 

I wouldn't at all be shocked if the Dean kicked up the ladder, the legal folks were brought in and that was the end of it unless she wants to take the next step.

 

And there is no way a University is going to start suggesting or advocating for a course of action here.

[Corcaigh]

A violent gang rape was reported on campus. Let's not worry about it, eh?

[PeterMP]

A violent gang rape was reported on campus. Let's not worry about it, eh?

 

There's a difference between worrying about something and having your hands tied by the situation.

 

What should they do?

[Corcaigh]

There's a difference between worrying about something and having your hands tied by the situation.

 

What should they do?

 

Investigate. Off the top of my head .... there is a location; there is a date and time; there is a list of members of the frat and by a process of elimination from other information presented (even if she wouldn't name him) the identity of at least one of the participants.

[balki1867]

From the piece, the Dean communicated the allegation to other people (to what end isn't clear).

 

From what I've read about sex crimes and the way they're investigated, the layers of communication are big reason criminals are able to get away with their crimes.  Generally, people are disgusted by what they hear/read, so they tend to water down the incident each time they convey it to someone else.  By the time it gets to an officer who is actually investigating it, "I was gang-raped by 7 guys I didn't know," turns into, "Some inappropriate stuff may have happened at a frat party last weekend," and it gets easy to cast it off as "a big misunderstanding."

 

I think the Penn State scandal was a good example of that.  By the time McQueary's eye witness account went to Paterno, then the University president, then the head of the police system, and then an investigating officer, "I saw Jerry Sandusky boning a kid in the shower," probably became something closer to, "they were in the shower at the same time, and it looked like it might've been inappropriate." It'd be really easy to explain your way out of the latter, and take some "sensitivity training" to learn that you shouldn't be showering with young boys.

[No Excuses]

Not a single expulsion from school for sexual assault going back to 1998. This isn't the administrations "hands being tied". This is a blatant cover up to protect the schools reputation. UVa has basically allowed serial rapists to graduate and go on with their lives.

[Predicto]

Same as it ever was.  This stuff, or lesser variations on it, have been going on at frat houses ever since frat houses began.   It's not a UVA problem.  It's a frat problem.  

 

There is something inherently wrong with putting a bunch of self-selected young guys together in a semi-secret society with its own house and expecting them not to revert to the worst instincts of male behavior.   20 year old men are too young, horny and terrified of bucking the bros before hos social order to govern themselves.  Putting 40 of them together in one place is just Lord of the Flies waiting to happen - which is why is does happen, over, and over, and over and over again.

[PeterMP]

Investigate. Off the top of my head .... there is a location; there is a date and time; there is a list of members of the frat and by a process of elimination from other information presented (even if she wouldn't name him) the identity of at least one of the participants.

 

Great, there was a frat party at the location at the day and time.  Heck, it is a bed room at a frat house so there's sperm all over it.

 

You figure out who she's claimed that did it, but I'm guessing she probably has told them already

 

So?

 

You call them in and talk to them MAYBE.  They claim nothing happened.

 

Rolling Stone calls you.  You can't tell Rolling Stone that you believe her and have called the people in and denied it, or you are going to get sued.

 

Until she's willing to step up and say these people raped me, there is nothing anybody is going to do.

 

The university isn't going to suspend/expel kids for a rape when the alleged victim isn't going to testify about it because if they do, they will get sued.

 

From the university's perspective, there is no real recourse here if she's not willing to testify to it even in the university judicial system.

 

So no, they aren't really going to do anything about it.

[Predicto]

Not a single expulsion from school for sexual assault going back to 1998. This isn't the administrations "hands being tied". This is a blatant cover up to protect the schools reputation. UVa has basically allowed serial rapists to graduate and go on with their lives.

 

 

As has Dartmouth.  And Kansas State.  And UCLA.  And Johns Hopkins.  And the University of Richmond.  And the University of Chicago.  And Florida State.  And Arizona State.  And Swarthmore.   At least 76 universities are under investigation for this right now, and its just the tip of the iceberg.

.  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/college-sex-assault-cases_n_5675564.html

[Destino]

FWIW, when I was a freshman in college, every freshman was required to take part in a seminar on rape.  One of the things they told us there was that if you know someone who's just been victimized, you shouldn't necessarily start deciding the next course of actions-- she's just been through a traumatic experience where she was robbed of that control, and its really your job to be supportive of whatever she deems to be the right course of action. 

 

I familiar with the idea that you let the rape victim decide but all rapes are not the the same.  They are all wrong and horrible, I'm not saying some are good or anything so ridiculous, just that they are not the same.  In some cases I would totally agree with what you are saying, but the one detailed in this article I would not.

 

In this particular case her friends came into the situation very soon after she had been brutalized, not simply robbed of control, but literally beaten and tortured atop broken glass for 3+ hours.  I wouldn't sit someone down in that situation and go looking for a pad and pen so I can make a positives and negatives list of possible options.  They are hurt and it's not always evident how bad the damage is when someone is beaten badly.  Remember the girl in this article was also raped with a bottle, there could be serious internal injuries.  She can decide what to tell the police, but in that situation I'm telling the hospital people what happened because I won't have a friend die while we chat about how best to make her feel in control. 

 

Once a doctor checks her out and she's safe I'd be happy to support her to whatever degree she'd prefer, even if that's to tell me to go **** myself for calling 911 without her permission.