WE: After school shooting in Connecticut, Piers Morgan blasts America’s ‘gun madness’

[Jumbo]

NBC said that the guns used belong to his mom, so even the strictest of control laws wouldn't have stopped him from shooting.

That comment implies that the suggestion that there may be something to examine in the culture that makes it relatively normal and relatively easy for some regular mom to have such, is pointless. But these issues are filled with "un-thinking" on

[Stadium-Armory]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/opinion/why-we-let-the-school-shootings-continue.html?smid=fb-share

Still, whatever your position on gun control, it is impossible not react with horror to news of the shootings in Connecticut. Our horror is nuanced by knowledge of what those families are going through, and what they will have to endure in years to come. More horrible still — to me at least — is the inevitable lament, “How could we have let this happen?” It is a horrible question because the answer is so simple. Make it easy for people to get guns and things like this will happen.

Children will continue to pay for a freedom their elders enjoy.

[zoony]

NBC said that the guns used belong to his mom, so even the strictest of control laws wouldn't have stopped him from shooting.

3 semi automatic high capacity weapons, tactical vest, spare magazines? I'm not advocating for either side, just pointing out your statement isn't true

[Renegade7]

Starting to hear news these guns belonged to the mom. I said it in first thread, and I'll say it again, it's not enough to make stricter gun laws. People that want guns are going to get them anyway. We're at the point now we have to take security more seriously. I want to see more about how in the hell this grown man got all the way into an elementary school classroom in the first place, armed.

[Jumbo]

War on guns! Problem solved.

Something I have been thinking for months now, and it's not a good sign for you. You have gone from being an eccentric/odd/eclectic/confusing poster, but also one with many positive aspects over the years, to just being more weird, argumentative , trollish, ridiculous, and generally troublesome more often. Might want to self-examine.

[Bacon]

From the WP article posted earlier:

Not sure if the most recent shooting is included in this graph or not.

[Prosperity]

I agree with the folks saying that they think that a big part of the problem is cultural.

OTOH, this is a thread about political reaction to these events. And personally, I really don;t know how to change a culture, but I somehow suspect that the government really isn't the right tool.

(I confess I'm not sure what is the right tool. Education? Is the much-talked-about income inequality a factor? The fragmentation of our media from a common, shared, cultural experience into almost completely separate realities? And, if it is one of those factors, how do you change it?)

Well, people have referred to our superficial consumerist culture. Perhaps one thing we can do is curtail the massive commercial interests that control our government. It was just a few days ago that I learned our government chose to NOT prosecute former executives of HSBC who knowingly laundered billions of dollars for narcoterrorists from Mexico, middle eastern terrorists, and terrorist sponsoring states or states on the sanctions list. They outright admitted to their criminal actions, but what did we do? We fined them a couple billion. A tiny portion of their annual profit. This is proof that our government is corrupt and controlled by tiny, but powerful commercial interests. Maybe if we kick these parasites out of our government we can slow down the cancer.

[Jumbo]

Starting to hear news these guns belonged to the mom. I said it in first thread, and I'll say it again, it's not enough to make stricter gun laws. People that want guns are going to get them anyway. We're at the point now we have to take security more seriously. I want to see more about how in the hell this grown man got all the way into an elementary school classroom in the first place, armed.

N/M I mis-read. But I'm out, amigos. Odd perspective about it at the moment, but I have an Xmas party to attend. Life.

[zoony]

Starting to hear news these guns belonged to the mom. I said it in first thread, and I'll say it again, it's not enough to make stricter gun laws. People that want guns are going to get them anyway. We're at the point now we have to take security more seriously. I want to see more about how in the hell this grown man got all the way into an elementary school classroom in the first place, armed.

On your first point, see my post above yours.

As for the adage about "...if guns are outlawed then only outlaws will then have guns" that we've all heard, we aren't dealing with outlaws in these mass shootings.

Preliminary reports mention this shooter wasn't a criminal, either

[Renegade7]

And I'd suggest you read how I responded about that "point" (whether one is pro or anti more "gun laws")---people need to star following their "thinking" through more exactingly and challenging themselves if we're ever going to get anywhere on anything. But I'm out, amigos. Odd perspective about it at the moment, but I have an Xmas party to attend. Life.

Big thread, I'll try to find it. Saw your N/M, enjoy your party.

[DeaconTheVillain]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57559179/china-school-knife-attack-leaves-23-injured/

A man wielding a knife attacked students Friday at a school in central China, leaving 22 children and one adult injured, according to state-run media reports.

The attack occurred at the gate of an elementary school in the village of Chengping, in Henan Province. Police arrested the attacker, who they identified as local resident Min Yingjun, 36.

Children as young as six were among those hospitalized after the attack, suffering injuries including slashes to the ears and head.

An official at Guangshan Traditional Chinese Medicine Hospital, the local facility, told CBS News at least two students had been transferred to the larger city of Wuhan, not far from Chengping, for treatment. The editor of the local newspaper which first reported the story said none of the children had injuries severe enough to threaten their lives.

Doesn't have to be USA and doesn't have to be guns. Crazies gonna crazy

[Kindred]

That's a good question. I would choose everyone.

Now my hypothetical. Would you rather be trapped on a desert island with 99 other people with 15 guns floating around, or none?

None

[Renegade7]

On your first point, see my post above yours.

As for the adage about "...if guns are outlawed then only outlaws will then have guns" that we've all heard, we aren't dealing with outlaws in these mass shootings.

Preliminary reports mention this shooter wasn't a criminal, either

I didn't say outlaws, I said people, and I said that for a reason. The guy in Auroa, VT, these guys didn't have criminal histories. I get that, we all get that. But in the meantime while politicians are arguing about how to figure this out, most of us citizens are sitting ducks. We have to increase security in public places to coincide with any further gun control laws (which I feel should be based more on psychological screening and communication between local and state government about red flag purchases).

Again, you can't outlaw guns because one way or another if someone wants one, they're going to get it.

[Stadium-Armory]

Shaking my head at those who think its some kind of justification that his mom obtained the guns legally. That's the ****ing problem! Nobody needs an M16.

[2v2nv]

I wrote a fairly lengthy post about this earlier. I don't think less of gun owners for responding to this tragedy the way they did. The genie is out of the bottle. If you have the option to protect yourself in this manner, and you were raised to consider it a reasonable option, of course you would wish to purchase a gun to protect yourself.

What I'm concerned for is our country in the long term. We have children being raised in a society full of adults raised by generations of cowboys, and we now find that technology has caught up with us. Guns are more dangerous than ever, and it's time to start raising our children in accordance with that. That's how I'm going to do it, and I don't fear for them either. The odds of being involved in a school shooting are still remote.

Well, they are here, anyway. I appreciate that on a Skins board of all places people might treat guns differently. PG county has always been a mess.

See I'm fine with that. I understand that just as I think guns are important, that to some they are not. I'm not trying to say you are a bad or stupid person for not being a gun owner. You make sense and I'm perfectly fine with that.

So could we both agree that our government needs to protect the children from a violent culture to some point? Then after years and years of that, would it make sense to have a class for each gun owner every so often discussing the dangers of a firearm and how much caution needs to take place when being around one? This would help with the desensitization of death that we have been having lately.

I would honestly feel so wrong to agree with any ban on violent video games but as zooney said earlier, I don't feel like our parents have the experience to be able to handle it. I'm a teacher in a middle school and I can vouch that the kinds of music and games that most children are involved with, HAS to have an affect on them, which COULD lead to something like this later in life. Most of these kids honestly believe in the music they listen to and play video games until 5 am, getting an hour of sleep, then coming to school. You can't tell me that 15 hours of video games watching the same thing over and over with a brain that is not fully mature enough to handle it does not have any toll on their adult mind later in life. Not only that but most kids do not have parents remotely involved in their life to feed them much less much less tell them what's right and wrong. I know some children that get themselves up, make food each and every day (which consists of Mt. Dew and pizza rolls), and don't shower for days.

The games and music are essentially raising most kids nowadays. Games have a mature level for a reason and I honestly think parents do not understand the dangers of letting their kid play THAT much of something they are not intended to experience. Music has a parental advisory for a reason as well. I know for a fact these 2 things have to play a huge roll in most problems we see today.

[Jumbo]

Big thread, I'll try to find it.

It's on the prev page, R7, but read my edit--I thought at first you were implying that the fact that it was his moms guns suggested we need not be concerned about the gun situation in our society. My error.

[cahones01]

For those advocating a ban on guns, Chicago and Washington DC did (which was ruled unconstitutional) and it didn't do any good. The number of murders in DC rose 156% in the years following the gun ban, and Chicago had a 41% increase. Criminals do not follow laws. If someone wants to commit murder, no law will stop them. They will find a way. If this kid wasn't able to get his hands on a gun, he could have just as easily built a bomb (instructions readily found on the internet) and killed even more people.

You also need to keep in mind why we have the 2nd Amendment in the first place. It isn't to protect ourselves from each other, it isn't to go hunting or shoot holes in paper at the gun range. It's to prevent tyranny. That's why the words "being necessary to the security of a free state" are in the amendment. If the government is the only one allowed to have guns, how can the citizens prevent the formation of tyrannical state?

[Thiebear]

Something I have been thinking for months now, and it's not a good sign for you. You have gone from being an eccentric/odd/eclectic/confusing poster, but also one with many positive aspects over the years, to just being more weird, argumentative , trollish, ridiculous, and generally troublesome more often. Might want to self-examine.

That's how the govg works if it's fixed through them.

If your calling me out as a troll I'd look at my last 20 posts

And get back to you tonight. Waiting at the metro for

3 hours for child pickup is more likely for tonight.

[hailer21]

The guns are out there in the millions. Banning guns is about as good as banning marijuana. It won't prevent those who want a gun from obtaining one.

What I think should happen is a massive increase in the amount of properly trained, armed, school security officers. How our school systems funds this force and recruits for it is beyond me but this is what I believe is a sensible solution to preventing this sort of massacre violence.

This incident doesn't seem very preventable via an all-out gun ban (not realistically enforceable) or much higher standards for gun ownership credentials. Even if gun owners were required to pass a mental exam, background check, and proper use classes, crazies like the Connecticut man can still simply steal a gun from their non-crazy gun owning friend.

And even if the guns were completely taken away from harmful individuals, is it realistic to think that these sorts of people wouldn't figure out another way to cause destruction?

[China]

We're at the point now we have to take security more seriously. I want to see more about how in the hell this grown man got all the way into an elementary school classroom in the first place, armed.

I thought I read he had some connection to the school? I know it wouldn't be that difficult at my daughter's elementary school. You ring the buzzer to gain entrance to the administrative offices. Once inside the building all anyone would have to do would be to pull the gun and go nuts. I'm not sure how you would prevent it short of having some type of TSA security procedure for anyone entering the school.

[Renegade7]

It's on the prev page, R7, but read my edit--I thought at first you were implying that the fact that it was his moms guns suggested we need not be concerned about the gun situation in our society. My error.

Nah, I saw your N/M and your post. You're good.

And I hear what people are talking about a possible social change and this still not being the straw that breaks the camels back on this issue. I personally and going to give this another 24-48 hours for more solid information to come out on this. While I'm not in the camp of giving every teacher a gun now, I whole heartedly believe every public school in the country should have at least one armed security guard on site from now on.

I still want to know how this guy got all the way to the classroom like that and nobody noticed until he started shooting. Did they even ID him when he came in, or did he sneak in the back like the auora guy?

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 07:46 PM ----------

I thought I read he had some connection to the school? I know it wouldn't be that difficult at my daughter's elementary school. You ring the buzzer to gain entrance to the administrative offices. Once inside the building all anyone would have to do would be to pull the gun and go nuts. I'm not sure how you would prevent it short of having some type of TSA security procedure for anyone entering the school.

Most school's I've been to you have to do the whole sign-in sheet thing and have a valid reason for being there, especially if you don't have a child attending the school. Was that even done here?

Again, every public school should have at least one armed officer from now on. That's a start.

[2v2nv]

I thought I read he had some connection to the school? I know it wouldn't be that difficult at my daughter's elementary school. You ring the buzzer to gain entrance to the administrative offices. Once inside the building all anyone would have to do would be to pull the gun and go nuts. I'm not sure how you would prevent it short of having some type of TSA security procedure for anyone entering the school.

Having a locked door policy would help. No one gets in unless by appointment. Also have a metal detector at the main entrance. Nothing is going to completely stop this stuff but these two things would considerably help IMO. Higher ranking government buildings have these two things and they never have any problem. Children IMO are worth the same security.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

The problem is that it is ridiculously easy to get a gun in America.

Got a clean record? Go a gun store, pick out your gun, plunk down cash, get your gun 3 days later.

Underage or got a criminal record? Go to a gun store with a buddy that has a clean record, pick out your gun, give your buddy the money, have him buy the gun, then come back 3 days later, and grab the gun from your buddy.

Or go to a black-market vendor where they don't give a ****.

And it doesn't help that we have a massive industry dedicated to producing massive amounts of firearms for public use, leading to a perverse incentive to sell guns, as many guns as they can regardless of the social consequences. Why should the merchants of death give a **** about kids dying in shootings (whether it's in Detroit, USA, Newton, USA, Ciudad Juarez, Mexico or Kinhasa, Congo)? They're making money.

And it really doesn't help that the conservative cult of MUH FREEDOM sees the obviously significant expansion of government needed to stop this as some kind of socialist takeover (really, what needs to happen is a hard cap on the number of guns that can be produced each year, coupled with a massive gun buyback, and the forcible nationalization and dissolution of gun companies - essentially a full out statist takeover to solve a major societal problem, which tends to be the only way social problems get solved)

Basically the moral of the story is that this is a political issue (no matter how much the right wing tries to make it not to be so, as if it weren't a result of their policies) and the political issue is that one side of our political spectrum is at best in a state of arrested mental development, and at worst, psychopathic. Don't like it? I'm sounding too inflammatory? Tough. Stop drinking the freedom kool-aid and fix ****.

And no, I'm not saying ban all guns. I think you should pay 300-500 dollars for one, and there should be a long wait-list for one. If you REALLY need a gun to protect your family, you'll get one. If you want to hunt for sport, then an expensive gun is just part of the cost, just like lots of other hobbies. You should not be able to walk into a gun store and get a gun in 3 days. And if someone gets shot with a gun you own, you're legally, or even criminally, liable, period, end of discussion. We

[Springfield]

You can't ban guns. Aside from the fact that you'd never get the support to do it, it's logistically impossible and civilly irresponsible.

Say you ban all guns... tomorrow. How does one go about collecting the millions of guns that are currently in the hands of our civilians, just ask them to turn them in nicely? Of course they won't turn in their guns. So you make it a crime to own a gun. Great, now you've just turned millions of law abiding citizens into criminals. You think our prison system is totally ****ed right now, just wait until you make owning a shotgun a felony. So yes, banning guns is a logistical impossibility.

The civil aspect of it goes even further. I do not trust our military and police to be the only people in the whole country that can legally carry a gun. Not one bit. I don't trust them to tap our phone calls, I don't trust them on this either. Not that we are planning some sort of coup, but civilians need to be able to own guns. If they can't then it's just a tyranny. Further on our way to a fascist state.

What happened today is a complete tragedy. It makes me sick to think about the complete randomness of it. It's something that could have happened at my local elementary school. I got teary eyed looking at pictures of the parents that are grief stricken trying to figure out what is happening with their children. This is something that is not acceptable. Banning guns is not the answer though. I don't know what will stop this kind of madness. I'm not sure that anyone does.

Also, I'll add that I am not currently a gun owner. I don't want the ability for me to own one if I so choose to be curtailed though.

[Stugein]

Tough. If you're against gun control, you're a psychopath.

You can't be serious.