WE: After school shooting in Connecticut, Piers Morgan blasts America’s ‘gun madness’

[China]

Most school's I've been to you have to do the whole sign-in sheet thing and have a valid reason for being there, especially if you don't have a child attending the school. Was that even done here?

Again, every public school should have at least one armed officer from now on. That's a start.

Yeah, that's how it is at my daughter's school. My point is that signing in doesn't prevent anything. Once you're in the building to where you sign it you could pull the gun there, go nuts and proceed to wherever in the school. I don't think a single armed guard would necessarily prevent someone who was determined. Just come in to the sign in area, pull the gun and take out the guard before he realizes what's going on and go from there. If someone is truly crazy and determined, they'll do it anyway. We're not talking about deterring rational people who would think twice about a guard. These people are by definition not rational.

[Jumbo]

That's how the govg works if it's fixed through them.

If your calling me out as a troll I'd look at my last 20 posts

And get back to you tonight. Waiting at the metro for

3 hours for child pickup is more likely for tonight.

No sweat.

Juts thought I'd share the thought, harsh as it may be, since it's popped into my head often enough.

You matter to me. :flowers:

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

You can't be serious.

I'm dead serious. If you have a problem with regulating how deadly weapons are sold and distributed in this country, because of some abstract concept of "freedom", the BEST thing I can say about you is that you're ****ing infantile.

[stevenaa]

There was some interesting commentary by someone on CNN saying that the USA has gone too far with patient "rights" and have made it far too difficult to incarcerate people for mental illness. I don't know a lot about that but she made some interesting points.

I still think we need to take a hard look at violence portrayed in our society. I would start with all of these video games. Guns have been available since 1790. These school shootings have begun in the modern Information Age. I challenge anyone who thinks that is coincidental.

100% agree zoony. Violent movies and Video games desensitze kids to the reality of death. People don't just drop dead on the spot when shot. Anyone who's gone hunting knows how strong the will to live is and just how much damage a living animal can take before ultimately dying. Violent entertainment is a huge factor.

[stevenaa]

There was some interesting commentary by someone on CNN saying that the USA has gone too far with patient "rights" and have made it far too difficult to incarcerate people for mental illness. I don't know a lot about that but she made some interesting points.

I still think we need to take a hard look at violence portrayed in our society. I would start with all of these video games. Guns have been available since 1790. These school shootings have begun in the modern Information Age. I challenge anyone who thinks that is coincidental.

100% agree zoony. Violent movies and Video games desensitze kids to the reality of death. People don't just drop dead on the spot when shot. Anyone who's gone hunting knows how strong the will to live is and just how much damage a living animal can take before ultimately dying. Violent entertainment is a huge factor. It also removes any sense of responsibility for actoins.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

The problem is that Europe has the same access to violent video games and moves that we do. Hell, Europe is even more lax in that regard in many ways. Japan produces a lot of violent stuff, and they're really lax in what they show to kids.

The problem is that it's too easy for any jackass to get a gun.

Look, I'm okay with both open and concealed carry.

I'm okay with guns to protect one's family.

I'm okay with law abiding persons having guns.

However, that old adage about only outlaws having guns? Nobody ever asks how the outlaws get guns in the first place. The outlaws have guns because they can get non-outlaws to get the guns for them.

And why is that? Because getting guns is easy here. It's easy to create and maintain a black market in guns because they're so easy to acquire second or third hand. Even though the listed price for a handgun is 250, the secondhand markets can push down to half that cost or more.

If anything, if you're a "law abiding gun owner", don't sell your gun, or sell it to the most reputable, licensed buyers, because that gun is going to end up in a criminal's hands. And certainly don't sell your gun at a random guy at a gun show or standing next to a gun show. That's why I say that if someone gets shot with a gun registered to you, you're legally liable. If you're selling deadly weapons to shady characters, and someone dies because of it, you deserve to be nailed.

[Stadium-Armory]

Article that focuses on the speed of the weapons being the problem:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/human_nature/2012/12/connecticut_school_shooting_semi_automatic_weapons_and_other_high_speed.html

I wish we could pass a magic law that would stop madmen from killing our children. We can’t. There will always be angry lunatics. There will always be knives and shotguns and gasoline. I don’t think banning guns will make the problem go away. We don’t need another all-or-nothing war between pro-gun and anti-gun ideologues. What we need is a frank, precise, constructive conversation about the problem of high-speed weapons. You don’t need rapid-fire weapons to hunt or defend your home. Cops don’t need them to shoot down bad guys. And while it’s true that passing a law against them won’t eliminate them, that’s not an argument against legislation. It’s an argument for going beyond legislation. The community of gun sellers and enthusiasts must act collectively to track and control the technology of mass murder.

[China]

Having a locked door policy would help. No one gets in unless by appointment. Also have a metal detector at the main entrance. Nothing is going to completely stop this stuff but these two things would considerably help IMO. Higher ranking government buildings have these two things and they never have any problem. Children IMO are worth the same security.

Schools have locked doors. But at some point they have to unlock them to let people sign in. I don't think only getting in by appointment is a workable policy. What if there's an emergency where you need to pick up your child? Can't do it because you don't have an appointment? That won't fly. If you say you at least have to call ahead, OK. If I'm a psycho, I call ahead, it doesn't mean I have to tell them my plan, I'm still able to get in the door. The suggestion of metal detectors at the door is good, but would be more than many school systems could afford. There are about 100,000 public schools in this country. At $10K each that's one billion dollars. And that doesn't include the cost of maintenance or the personnel to operate them. With many school budgets already strapped, where does this money come from, the Feds?

[Going Commando]

Something has got to be done. We as a nation failed those children . People can not keep dying like this. The entire situation of guns and violence in our nation is absolutely insane. It would be utterly unacceptable if our society did not make important changes after an incident like this.

[Stadium-Armory]

No no, 'government is evil'. The free market will fix this.

[Renegade7]

Yeah, that's how it is at my daughter's school. My point is that signing in doesn't prevent anything. Once you're in the building to where you sign it you could pull the gun there, go nuts and proceed to wherever in the school. I don't think a single armed guard would necessarily prevent someone who was determined. Just come in to the sign in area, pull the gun and take out the guard before he realizes what's going on and go from there. If someone is truly crazy and determined, they'll do it anyway. We're not talking about deterring rational people who would think twice about a guard. These people are by definition not rational.

C'mon, man, it's not the sign-in I'm emphasising, it's the needing a reason to be there and whether or not you're on the list of allowed visitors. Change policy to restrict or be more aware of people that aren't employees or students. I see your one guy isn't enough theory, but I feel the fact the fact there was no deterrent at all lead to this guy believing he could pull it off. And I would not be against metal detectors being put at all public schools. It's not one silver bullet for this issue, but I whole heartedly believe we can do more to prevent this from being so easy.

I'd be fine with more then one armed guard, but the fact there were none and this guy with no reason for being in the school was allowed to just walk all the way to classroom bothers the hell out of me.

[twa]

No no, 'government is evil'. The free market will fix this.

Charter schools, homeschooling?

knee jerk reactions are rarely wise

[Renegade7]

Schools have locked doors. But at some point they have to unlock them to let people sign in. I don't think only getting in by appointment is a workable policy. What if there's an emergency where you need to pick up your child? Can't do it because you don't have an appointment? That won't fly. If you say you at least have to call ahead, OK. If I'm a psycho, I call ahead, it doesn't mean I have to tell them my plan, I'm still able to get in the door. The suggestion of metal detectors at the door is good, but would be more than many school systems could afford. There are about 100,000 public schools in this country. At $10K each that's one billion dollars. And that doesn't include the cost of maintenance or the personnel to operate them. With many school budgets already strapped, where does this money come from, the Feds?

No he still wouldn't of gotten in because he didn't have a kid there nor a valid reason to be in the building. Usually you have more then one person on an emergency contact list, so there is a cost-effective way to go about this. At the same time, pulling the "price tag" on this is like arguing against maintenance for our crumbling infrastructure and bridges that are ready to collapse.

[Stadium-Armory]

The setup at our school would need to be changed to support the notion of lock down. There are two sets of doors. They lock the inside set but the outside set is open for people to come in and sign in. There is non bullet proof glass with a sliding window that exposes occupants of the office to anyone standing in the sign in area. Some changes would have to happen to the makeup of the entry ways to support this and it will cost money.

Add: part of me doesn't want my kids to grow up in barbed wire encrusted schools.

[2v2nv]

Schools have locked doors. But at some point they have to unlock them to let people sign in. I don't think only getting in by appointment is a workable policy. What if there's an emergency where you need to pick up your child? Can't do it because you don't have an appointment? That won't fly. If you say you at least have to call ahead, OK. If I'm a psycho, I call ahead, it doesn't mean I have to tell them my plan, I'm still able to get in the door. The suggestion of metal detectors at the door is good, but would be more than many school systems could afford. There are about 100,000 public schools in this country. At $10K each that's one billion dollars. And that doesn't include the cost of maintenance or the personnel to operate them. With many school budgets already strapped, where does this money come from, the Feds?

Honestly I don't think a locked door policy is impossible but as you said, its not completely fail proof. However, there is no sure fire answer, only small answers that could amount to a lot when combined. What about an armed security guard with a wand? Even then, the price is expensive but with the debt we're in, we can't take a hit for something this important?

Honestly I feel that the problem comes from desensitization from the media. Our children aren't getting the guidance from their family like we used to. This leads them to develop by learning from fake games, tv shows, and movies. They are way to young to figure this out on their own.

[DCranon21]

From my post earlier, I've said their shouldn't be a ban on guns, but stricter policy for owning certain guns. So the guy had a Bushmaster .223 assault rifle(did not use it actually) and gunned down 26 innocent lives. So I know this question has been beating around for years, outside the gun range, why would you want to own a high caliber AR-15 or a Bushmaster .223 rifle? I'm just curious. I'm a former service member, and unless you are in combat or anything in that nature what is the point of owning a high caliber assault rifle? I think there needs to be legislation on rifles like this. It should be damn near impossible to own a gun like this.

[Bang]

Charter schools, homeschooling?

knee jerk reactions are rarely wise

After all these shootings how can anything be knee jerk?

hell, we've had plenty of time to think of how to handle things. This happens all the time.

It's not like this is anything isolated in which people would be prone to make a knee jerk reactive decision based on a rare event.

It's anything BUT a rare event.

~Bang

[China]

No he still wouldn't of gotten in because he didn't have a kid there nor a valid reason to be in the building. Usually you have more then one person on an emergency contact list, so there is a cost-effective way to go about this. At the same time, pulling the "price tag" on this is like arguing against maintenance for our crumbling infrastructure and bridges that are ready to collapse.

I haven't followed the details as closely as you apparently. If he didn't have a valid reason to be in the building or a kid there then there was obviously some failing in the admittance policy. That's not the way it is in my daughter's school, or most others. I would agree that every school should have these measures in place at a minimum.

You may not like the cost argument, but it is a real problem with no easy solution.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

After all these shootings how can anything be knee jerk?

hell, we've had plenty of time to think of how to handle things. This happens all the time.

It's not like this is anything isolated in which people would be prone to make a knee jerk reactive decision based on a rare event.

It's anything BUT a rare event.

~Bang

Ignore the BS.

This is all just an infantile "I DIDNT DO IT IM NOT RESPONSIBLE" reaction from the mentally ill portion of our political spectrum. They will never take responsibility for the effects of their policies because to do so would force them to look themselves in the mirror and realize that their ideas are poison marketed as "freedom". I mean, ****ing homeschooling as a solution to school shootings is a classic response. Obviously it's the gubmints fault.

[afkidd]

No he still wouldn't of gotten in because he didn't have a kid there nor a valid reason to be in the building. Usually you have more then one person on an emergency contact list, so there is a cost-effective way to go about this. At the same time, pulling the "price tag" on this is like arguing against maintenance for our crumbling infrastructure and bridges that are ready to collapse.

what exactly is stopping him from just blowing the door down? and what exactly is signing in going to do? He'll just blow the people away at the sign up sheet. I don't think everyone is thinking this one through...

[DCranon21]

After all these shootings how can anything be knee jerk?

hell, we've had plenty of time to think of how to handle things. This happens all the time.

It's not like this is anything isolated in which people would be prone to make a knee jerk reactive decision based on a rare event.

It's anything BUT a rare event.

~Bang

Bang, don't feed into it. I just learned how not to feed into twa. Me, I just say eh...nevermind.

[skinpride1]

Many people are just missing the fact this guy was probably just a nut..If he wanted to do damage to the teacher, which i heard was his mother then he would have found a way any how if guns where banned. he probably would have made a bomb and blown the school up. I still dont understand how someone could just kill a child. What about all the violent movies ans games out there and dont give me none of that crap it doesnt happen in europe or japan either.. cause you know it does. Take the guns away then all you do is open the door for the mob and criminals and gangs to do more crime. How about making it mandatory to have a armed security or police at every school in the nation!!!!!!!!!! Hell the way this country is burning through cash what would it be to put a cop at every public school... so we could have some protection for the kids!!!!

[Stadium-Armory]

We do just go around in circles regurgitation the same arguments. It does make me feel better to talk about it though.

[zoony]

And it doesn't help that we have a massive industry dedicated to producing massive amounts of firearms for public use, leading to a perverse incentive to sell guns, as many guns as they can regardless of the social consequences. Why should the merchants of death give a **** about kids dying in shootings (whether it's in Detroit, USA, Newton, USA, Ciudad Juarez, Mexico or Kinhasa, Congo)? They're making money.

And it really doesn't help that the conservative cult of MUH FREEDOM sees the obviously significant expansion of government needed to stop this as some kind of socialist takeover (really, what needs to happen is a hard cap on the number of guns that can be produced each year, coupled with a massive gun buyback, and the forcible nationalization and dissolution of gun companies - essentially a full out statist takeover to solve a major societal problem, which tends to be the only way social problems get solved)

Glocks are Austrian. Sigs are German. Berettas are Italian. Taurus are Brazilian

The United States used to be the leader and is no more. Gun manufacturers thrive overseas even in countries where it is tough to own one

[Renegade7]

The setup at our school would need to be changed to support the notion of lock down. There are two sets of doors. They lock the inside set but the outside set is open for people to come in and sign in. There is non bullet proof glass with a sliding window that exposes occupants of the office to anyone standing in the sign in area. Some changes would have to happen to the makeup of the entry ways to support this and it will cost money.

Add: part of me doesn't want my kids to grow up in barbed wire encrusted schools.

My mom used to teach Ferebee Hope Elementary School in SE DC. It's entire play area was fenced off like my junior high school (Hines, across the street from Eastern Market that had metal detectors), but there's I distinctly remember having barbed wire. It was done for the kids protection, and I know no one likes it, but in that area, no body was complaining about it. In fact, most public schools I see in DC the area the kids are allowed to play in are completely fenced off.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 09:00 PM ----------

what exactly is stopping him from just blowing the door down? and what exactly is signing in going to do? He'll just blow the people away at the sign up sheet. I don't think everyone is thinking this one through...

No, you're not thinking this through in the sense of the big picture. You have police or armed security at the only point of entry and I agree that there shouldn't no only be one security official. Even if the shooter gets through the front, there's at least somebody else in the building to help protect the people inside.

My point on the sign in area is being missed because it alone is not enough. Of course it's not f'n enough, my point is this school didn't even do that. Everyone in there was a sitting duck because there was absolutely NO SECURITY AT ALL.