Raw Story: GOP Senate nominee: Women don’t get pregnant from ‘legitimate’ rapes

[mistertim]

I don't think he is necessarily "trolling" as in doing it for fun. I think twa just really really likes to argue and won't ever give up.

[twa]

You either

1.) Don't know the difference between ovulation and fertilization

---- OR ----

2.) You're trolling all of us.

Do you?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100817111658.htm

The study included data from 274 healthy women aged between 18 and 40 who were trying to become pregnant. During the study, the women provided saliva samples on day 6 of each of their menstrual cycles to test for levels of the hormone cortisol and alpha-amylase (an indicator of adrenalin levels).

The body has two pathways that respond to stress: one involves the release of adrenalin and the other the release of cortisol. The adrenalin pathway is associated with the body's instant 'fight or flight' reflex. Cortisol is connected with longer periods of raised response and stress.

The results showed that the chances of getting pregnant for the quarter of women in the study with the highest levels of alpha-amylase were roughly 12% lower than the quarter of women with the lowest levels of alpha-amylase, each day during the fertile days of their menstrual cycle.

No differences in the chances of becoming pregnant were found for women with different levels of cortisol.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090615171618.htm

Stress Puts Double Whammy On Reproductive System, Fertility

In 2000, however, a new reproductive hormone was discovered in birds and dubbed gonadotropin-inhibitory hormone (GnIH) because it had the opposite effect of GnRH - it inhibited release of gonadotropins, thereby suppressing reproduction.

"It's very adaptive to not be wasting resources on reproduction during times of acute stress, to just shut down reproduction for 24 hours or so until the stress is gone," said co-author Daniela Kaufer, a UC Berkeley assistant professor of integrative biology who looks at how stress affects molecular processes in the brain. "These functions go back in evolution a long way."

Because of the negative effects of GnIH on reproduction, Bentley, who helped establish the critical role played by GnIH in birds, teamed up with Kaufer and Kirby to explore whether stress might affect GnIH levels in the brain. The homologous hormones in mammals have been dubbed RFamide-related peptides, or RFRPs.

Kirby showed that acutely stressed rats showed increased RFRP levels for several hours, but that levels returned to normal by the next day.

[No Excuses]

1.) Don't know the difference between ovulation and fertilization

It's getting comical at this point. The study he has cited discusses stress during the sexually non-receptive phase. :doh:

[skinsfan07]

He's been trolling since this thread started. Unreal.

[KCClybun]

Lots of bull****.

...So you're trolling now.

Okay.

I'm bored. Anyone one else tired of feeding the monster?

[Unforgiven]

...So you're trolling now.

Okay.

I'm bored. Anyone one else tired of feeding the monster?

Eh, I went along with it while I was bored at work.

There is no debate to be had at this point. At least on the subject of the comments and how he got to that point.

The only question at this point is how long he's going to drag this out by refusing to quit and how much it hurts his own party.

[No Excuses]

Eh, I'll bite I guess.

The first link should be obvious by reading just the first few paras.

'This is the first study to find that a biological measure of stress is associated with a woman's chances of becoming pregnant that month,' explains Dr Cecilia Pyper of the National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit at the University of Oxford. 'We looked at a group of healthy women aged between 18 and 40 who were all planning a pregnancy. We found that those women with high levels of a marker for stress were less likely to succeed in conceiving.

'The findings support the idea that couples should aim to stay as relaxed as they can about trying for a baby. In some people's cases, it might be relevant to look at relaxation techniques, counselling and even approaches like yoga and meditation,' Dr Pyper says.

I don't know how you equate:

1. Women under stress who are also trying trying to get pregnant..

to

2. Women who take on stress as a result of rape.

Completely absurd and not even worth discussing.

--------

The second study is a bit more interesting. I'm no expert in that exact field, but my own research deals with the signaling pathways.

In mammals, the two "gonadotropic" hormones released as a result of GnRH activity are: "LH" and "FSH" (both abbreviated). I found this link which summarizes the function of both:

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/hypopit/lhfsh.html

Follicle-Stimulating Hormone

As its name implies, FSH stimulates the maturation of ovarian follicles. Administration of FSH to humans and animals induces "superovulation", or development of more than the usual number of mature follicles and hence, an increased number of mature gametes.

FSH is also critical for sperm production. It supports the function of Sertoli cells, which in turn support many aspects of sperm cell maturation.

In females, ovulation of mature follicles on the ovary is induced by a large burst of LH secretion known as the preovulatory LH surge. Residual cells within ovulated follicles proliferate to form corpora lutea, which secrete the steroid hormones progesterone and estradiol. Progesterone is necessary for maintenance of pregnancy, and, in most mammals, LH is required for continued development and function of corpora lutea. The name luteinizing hormone derives from this effect of inducing luteinization of ovarian follicles.

Like FSH, LH is involved in ovulation. But right after fertilization of the egg, LH is replaced by hCG (human chronic gonadotropin). It's similar to LH, but a different hormone. It's most likely not affected by the mammalian homologue of the gonadotropin inhibitory hormone because it works through a separate pathway. Either way, doesn't seem like FSH and LH have much to do with fertilization, but rather to do with ovulation. So their inhibition through stress will not inhibit fertility, but rather ovulation.

[Henry]

perhaps he will explain

There is no perhaps. He already did. He said "I was completely wrong and I'm sorry."

[twa]

There is no perhaps. He already did. He said "I was completely wrong and I'm sorry."

Then we agree

No Excuses....delaying ovulation will not prevent some pregnancies?

There is about 5 days of sperm viability right?

[Henry]

No Excuses....delaying ovulation will not prevent some pregnancies?

There is about 5 days of sperm viability right?

Are you asking or do you know?

[Jumbo]

Enough. Someone used the word “comical” in relation to the conversation. I'm not laughing. I'm a little pissed by now. Getting a little pissed about anything on ES that's not happening on the football field is unusual for me.

I'm quite used to all kinds of people thinking all kinds of ****.

But I am of the view that this forum is being treated like crap at times---in this thread, and sometimes in others, by folks (and I do mean more than one) who like to regularly indulge themselves in "discussion" with certain behaviors that repeatedly abuse the grace we routinely extend. This usually occurs in threads of religious or sociopolitical themes and it's not limited to any particular POVs or schools of thought on any topic.

Certain posters (figure out who you are) should regard whatever they currently think is acceptable about their participation with suspicion, and re-examine their efforts, if posting here something they'd like to keep doing. As some of our oldest and best-known posters can verify,anyone is subject losing their posting privileges. Our rules make clear that we are not seeking a typical level of internet conversation (meaning content and behavioral style) in this forum.

And it's a moderator's defining of "troll" and any derivations thereof that matters. It's right there in the rules. I doubt there's that much confusion of what trolling is for the most part--maybe some just aren't sure how much they can get away with at any given time, or if they'll get a warning of the slack being tightened before getting a boot. My advice--don't count on warnings. And I want no one to PM me or ask me to expand. It's all on you.

[twa]

Are you asking or do you know?

I am fairly certain, especially since the morning after pill prevents/delays ovulation

the sperm viability length is less certain in my memory

would you prefer I cease and desist?

[Henry]

would you prefer I cease and desist?

I realize Jumbo has already brought down the hammer, but yes. I think you have like to have fun at the expense of the board a lot and at times that's tolerable. I don't think it is in this case.

And that's all I'm saying. Time for me to step back and count to ten now.

[No Excuses]

No Excuses....delaying ovulation will not prevent some pregnancies?

We don't know about the time table in regards to stress affecting rape victims and then further causing changes to their reproductive cycle. Or in general, the trauma of their experience and how it relates to their reproductive cycle. You can't use the findings of one study and use them to a reach a completely different conclusion.

Others have already posted enough studies in here which clearly show that rape does not reduce odds of pregnancy.

I'm not getting sucked any deeper into this conversation. If this isn't enough information, then we'll just go in circles and circles.

[Wrong Direction]

PPP apparently put out a poll showing him still leading by 1 point. However, that poll way oversampled Republicans (PPP put out some doozies this week).

I suspect McCaskill is really happy he didn't drop out today.

In terms of damage control, the best thing he could have done is come out and say he was totally stupid and apologize. My guess is that he's just biding time, seeing if his damage control campaign works in his internal polling and will then agree to be removed in like a week (assuming his polling really does tank). This may be giving him too much credit though.

[RedskinsFan44]

After watching the reaction from the Republican establishment and thinking about what Akin said I don't believe that the "women shut down their reproductive process" part is what is truly damaging in this. Sure it is an idiotic statement. What is really damaging is "legitimate rape", which was addressed by the party in their "forcible rape" legislation, and the fact that the party has a plank in their platform to outlaw all abortion regardless of the cause. Ryan is hardline on abortion, this is something they do not want to discuss, particularly when they were just beginning to recover from the damage Rush railing against Fluke has caused with women voters.

The Republican party has brought this on themselves. They ratchet up the crazy rhetoric to fire up the base, so they get candidates like Akin, Palin and Angle. In 2011 I thought the thing would come to a head in a debate between Romney and Palin when Romney would be forced to expose her to win, but I was disappointed by her realization that she had no chance. I wonder how the party will react if they lose to Obama in a year when it should have been easy,

[@DCGoldPants]

Enough.

Received loud and clear

[LadySkinsFan]

Are you advocating that men play no role at all in any legislation relating to health matters of women?

Yes. Because men have shown that they care not about living, breathing women and more about a clump of cells, and until that changes, they have no right to tell us what to do with our bodies.

An old women's liberation march chant comes to mind: KEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY!!!!!

[RedskinsFan44]

PPP apparently put out a poll showing him still leading by 1 point. However, that poll way oversampled Republicans (PPP put out some doozies this week).

I suspect McCaskill is really happy he didn't drop out today.

In terms of damage control, the best thing he could have done is come out and say he was totally stupid and apologize. My guess is that he's just biding time, seeing if his damage control campaign works in his internal polling and will then agree to be removed in like a week (assuming his polling really does tank). This may be giving him too much credit though.

He can be a hero for his cause even in defeat. My guess is if he can get some money he can be competitive in MO if he can avoid saying anything else stupid, which may be a stretch.

---------- Post added August-21st-2012 at 10:58 PM ----------

Yeah it's Maddow, so it's biased, but a pretty damning documentation of how this incident came about and why it may cause some major damage if people look closely at it:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/48732520#48732520

GOP passes abortion platform:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79945.html?hp=l4

[Renegade7]

GOP leaders came out against him because they figured that it might cost them a seat.

They will have no problem at all, replacing him with someone who has sworn to legislate exactly the same as this guy, but who hasn't said so quite so clearly.

As stone-age as the GOP comes across sometimes, I do feel this was a tad bit too far even for them. Difference is he isn't in office, so if he was, they'd maybe push for him to resign, not go the full fledge recall route...

This thread should be closed.

[Koolblue13]

Yes. Because men have shown that they care not about living, breathing women and more about a clump of cells, and until that changes, they have no right to tell us what to do with our bodies.

An old women's liberation march chant comes to mind: KEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY!!!!!

Women are the only ones hung up on that incorrect line of thinking.

It's not about your body at all. They are trying to protect the other life that is living inside of you.

Yes, it happens to be inside of you and occasionally, because of you, but that's not the point. It's not laws about your body.

The Keep your laws off my body chant has been making the conversation of abortion more difficult and dishonest, for a long, long time.

[Going Commando]

Yes. Because men have shown that they care not about living, breathing women and more about a clump of cells, and until that changes, they have no right to tell us what to do with our bodies.

An old women's liberation march chant comes to mind: KEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY!!!!!

Should women then be allowed to play no part in the legislation of health matters for men?

[LadySkinsFan]

Quote from an Eve Ensler article in The Huffington Post that is germane to this discussion. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eve-ensler/todd-akin-rape_b_1812930.html?utm_hp_ref=yahoo&ir=Yahoo

"I am asking you and the GOP to get out of my body, out of my vagina, my womb, to get out of all of our bodies. These are not your decisions to make. These are not your words to define.

Why don't you spend your time ending rape rather than redefining it? Spend your energy going after those perpetrators who so easily destroy women rather than parsing out manipulative language that minimizes their destruction.

And by the way you've just given millions of women a very good reason to make sure you never get elected again, and an insanely good reason to rise. "

And until that fetus is outside of my body, it IS about my body. When laws are made to protect clumps of cells over a living, breathing human being then you all just don't get it.

And if men want to make their own laws about their own bodies, have at it.

In the meantime, it is on you to stop rape. All this discussion about an innocent that is the result of a horrendous act of violation is just a smokescreen to keep women under control. The radical right is trying like hell to get women out of the workforce (more jobs for men), in the kitchen and bedrooms taking care of men, and of course taking care of all the children that will be born because there won't be anymore birth control. Remember, it used to be against the law for unmarried people to even buy condoms, so all you unmarried men out there take heed, you will be on the stick for paying child support and lots of it.

[Koolblue13]

The laws aren't about your body, they are because people think you are murdering babies.

You make it sound like they don't want you getting your labia pierced as opposed to infanticide.

It's a dishonest argument.

[mistertim]

In the meantime, it is on you to stop rape. All this discussion about an innocent that is the result of a horrendous act of violation is just a smokescreen to keep women under control. The radical right is trying like hell to get women out of the workforce (more jobs for men), in the kitchen and bedrooms taking care of men, and of course taking care of all the children that will be born because there won't be anymore birth control. Remember, it used to be against the law for unmarried people to even buy condoms, so all you unmarried men out there take heed, you will be on the stick for paying child support and lots of it.

I can understand that you have an emotional investment in this issue and I agree with many of your points and that the GOP generally does seem to have overall regressive stances on women's rights. However, this part simply comes off as conspiracy theory level talk.