Tunisian Revolution and the Middle East--And Now, The Withdrawal From Afghanistan (M.E.T.)

[Larry]

Well, hey.  They might not have stopped her for being a woman.  

 

They might be doing it for all journalists.  

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 hours ago, bearrock said:

 The aftermath of the war is not our job.

Just might want to remember what led to the rise of Hitler.

[Barry.Randolphe]

Maybe we'll see some of those Afghans we trained (particularly the special forces) start using guerilla warfare tactics and take out Taliban leaders

 

I'm still grasping for something positive...

[hail2skins]

21 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

I'm still grasping for something positive...

No kidding. I just want to, at minimum, get our remaining civilians and then military out.  know the situation calls for some patience, but at this point we are looking feckless and the Administration is looking very incompetent.

[bearrock]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Just might want to remember what led to the rise of Hitler.

 

Well, arguably the victors' heavy-handed approach to post WWI Germany played a part.  In any event, preventing the next Hitler could be an argument for unlimited global intervention by US.  I don't think Americans have the appetite to go that far.

[redskins59]

I hope this is true.  Military buildup in the Panjshir province.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by redskins59

[TheGreatBuzz]

9 hours ago, bearrock said:

 

Well, arguably the victors' heavy-handed approach to post WWI Germany played a part.  In any event, preventing the next Hitler could be an argument for unlimited global intervention by US.  I don't think Americans have the appetite to go that far.

You said the aftermath of war isn’t our job.  My point was just that if we take that approach, then you don’t know what will happen.  I don’t see how that leads to the need for global intervention.  But just letting the worst rise to power after we level the place can be ugly also.

[bearrock]

10 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

You said the aftermath of war isn’t our job.  My point was just that if we take that approach, then you don’t know what will happen.  I don’t see how that leads to the need for global intervention.  But just letting the worst rise to power after we level the place can be ugly also.

 

I agree you don't know what will happen.  But the same uncertainty exists in many other situations in foreign countries (whether or not caused by a war with the US).  The potential of a situation devolving and giving rise to a maniac is a possibility in so many situations, I'm saying that standard can be used to justify almost any American engagement in any situation.  I think the country needs some evidence of concrete and urgent danger or a specific retributive target.

 

If every war has to be followed with building the nation back up to a secure and stable condition, we may end up seeing a lot of Afghanistans play out in the future.

[China]

Reports of targeted Taliban killings fuel Afghans’ fears

 

Reports of targeted killings in areas overrun by the Taliban mounted Friday, fueling fears that they will return Afghanistan to the repressive rule they imposed when they were last in power, even as they urged imams to push a message of unity at Friday’s prayers.

 

Terrified that the new de facto rulers would commit such abuses and despairing for their country’s future, thousands have raced to Kabul’s airport and border crossings following the Taliban’s stunning blitz through Afghanistan. Others have taken to the streets to protest the takeover — acts of defiance that Taliban fighters have violently suppressed.

 

The Taliban say they have become more moderate since they last ruled Afghanistan in the 1990s and have pledged to restore security and forgive those who fought them in the 20 years since a U.S.-led invasion. Ahead of Friday prayers, leaders urged imams to use sermons to appeal for unity and urge people not to flee the country.

 

But many Afghans are skeptical, fearing that the Taliban will erase the gains, especially for women, achieved in the past two decades. An Amnesty International report provided more evidence Friday that undercut the Taliban’s claims they have changed.

 

The rights group said that its researchers spoke to eyewitnesses in Ghazni province who recounted how the Taliban killed nine ethnic Hazara men in the village of Mundarakht on July 4-6. It said six of the men were shot, and three were tortured to death. Hazaras are Shiite Muslims who were previously persecuted by the Taliban and who made major gains in education and social status in recent years.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[TD_washingtonredskins]

This was just a mess and this afternoon's press conference didn't do much to instill any confidence. I'm not a military strategist, but it seems that we conducted this withdrawal in the exact opposite order that logic would dictate. 

 

Why not get people out of there, then remove our equipment, and then get our troops out? 

[TheGreatBuzz]

33 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

This was just a mess and this afternoon's press conference didn't do much to instill any confidence. I'm not a military strategist, but it seems that we conducted this withdrawal in the exact opposite order that logic would dictate. 

 

Why not get people out of there, then remove our equipment, and then get our troops out? 

Because if we had evacuated the important people, then taken all of our guns and equipment back with us, it would be pretty hard to even pretend we had a modicum of faith in the government we spent 20 years and trillions of dollars propping up.

[thegreaterbuzzette]

On 8/19/2021 at 2:43 PM, DCSaints_fan said:

My question did the US really fund "nation building" in Afghanistan?  Or was it more funding our own and their militaries?   I seem to recall a comment during the Bush admin specifically saying they were not going to be doing nation building, but maybe my memory isn't good on that one. 

If the administration said we weren’t Nation Building, there’s almost guarantee we were Nation Building. All jokes aside, I don’t see how you can classify what we were doing there as anything but Nation Building. 

 

22 hours ago, DCSaints_fan said:

A joke I know, but the more I read about wars the more pacifist I get.  Even to the extent that I have a hard time fighting in the American revolution ( say, had I been a colonist at the time withot the benefit of foreknowledge) . 

 

Except for rare circumstances like Hitler and  bin Laden.  **** those guys.

So you think without war (read: a show of force and global babysitter) what deters actors like Hitler and OBL from existing?

Edited August 20, 2021 by thegreaterbuzzette
Typo

[thegreaterbuzzette]

On 8/18/2021 at 7:49 PM, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

I said ~75% men. Look in the middle of the picture - it's a sea of men.

So…..because you wanted to continue this….I will too. 
 

The children alone make up 22% of those on the plane. And that’s ONLY counting children who could sit on an adults lap, so assuming most between 13-17 aren’t even included in that count. 

[DCSaints_fan]

25 minutes ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

So you think without war (read: a show of force and global babysitter) what deters actors like Hitler and OBL from existing?

 

Bottom line is it doesn't, and didn't deter them.  OBL knew full well the US was not going to let terrorist attacks go unanswered.  He didn't care.  Same goes with Hitler kicking off WW2, to a certain extent - though he thought he could come to a peace agreement with some of the participants - particularly Britain, and perhaps thought he could keep the US neutral at least long enough to achieve his aims in Europe.  

With people like Hitler the question is not deterrence but one of active defense, diplomacy and maintaining alliances such that when they do strike, they don't succeed.  With terrorism and people like OBL the answer is more domestic policing which has (mostly) worked despite us taking 10 years to take him out, as well as international cooperation to reign in things like financing.  Aggressive wars are actual counterproductive to international cooperation. 

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[hail2skins]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

This was just a mess and this afternoon's press conference didn't do much to instill any confidence. I'm not a military strategist, but it seems that we conducted this withdrawal in the exact opposite order that logic would dictate. 

 

Why not get people out of there, then remove our equipment, and then get our troops out? 

Yep, instead of the discussion rehashing the previous 20 years, I'd like to see people more knowledgable discuss the question you raise. 

 

I'm grasping to see how someone can't be completely livid about what is taking place right now.

[TradeTheBeal!]

 

[Barry.Randolphe]

1 hour ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

So…..because you wanted to continue this….I will too. 
 

The children alone make up 22% of those on the plane. And that’s ONLY counting children who could sit on an adults lap, so assuming most between 13-17 aren’t even included in that count. 

 

Are you math debating in public? 🤔

[PleaseBlitz]

I’m still in the camp of, the execution of this week was terrible, but ultimately the right decision was made. 
 

I hate to agree with Trump but nation building, especially when it clearly isnt working, is not in our national interest. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by PleaseBlitz

[tshile]

The question is how serious is the resistance 

[DCSaints_fan]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

The question is how serious is the resistance 

Maybe this is Afghanistan: Endgame.  Only one way to ultimately win and it involves letting the other guy(s) think they won.

[RansomthePasserby]

44 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said:

Maybe this is Afghanistan: Endgame.  Only one way to ultimately win and it involves letting the other guy(s) think they won.

The Afghan people rising up to take ownership of their country and drive out the Taliban once and for all would be the dream scenario. 

[PleaseBlitz]

5 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said:

The Afghan people rising up to take ownership of their country and drive out the Taliban once and for all would be the dream scenario. 

It appears that the majority of Afghanis want the Taliban to run ****. 

[daveakl]

2 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

It appears that the majority of Afghanis want the Taliban to run ****. 

Want to vs aren't willing to die to prevent 

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

7 minutes ago, daveakl said:

Want to vs aren't willing to die to prevent 

 

 

Do you think that’s it?  I know it’s hard for Americans to understand a person actively wanting a religious fundamentalist government, but that is what the majority of middle eastern countries have. As soon as our military left, the country fell in a week, you really think people there don’t want the Taliban?

 

The US spent 20 years and 2 TRILLION dollars to give them an alternative, which was immediately rejected when our military presence left. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by PleaseBlitz