What do some of you not understand?

[Art]

Those positions don't have to be mutually exclusive, obviously. When you have a passionate, fiscally supportive owner like the Redskins do, it serves your best interest to find the proper complementary balance between the draft and free agency. I think our franchise can make great strides towards a demonstrably improved valuing of their draft picks, while still more often than not being able to acquire their key complementary players in F.A. It's the seeming overkill of the needless discarding of draft picks for luxuries that really aren't that necessary, which causes the system to breakdown. Be generous in signing your target F.A.s, allocate certain limited picks to help acquire key RFAs, and otherwise keep your draft picks mostly intact (whether in order to utilize them, or package them together to maximize value)... but reign it in a little on frivolously tossing them away when it's just not required.

I agree with you. Finding the proper balance between the draft and free agency is, absolutely, key, which is exactly what we strive for. The move for Cooley, Campbell, Rocky were efforts to strike that balance. We needed quality, not quantity, and we sought to achieve that smartly.

I'm not totally sure I know the picks we were throwing away. People say the Brunell pick was more than we needed to pay and that may be so, but, it got us a guy who after being horrid his first year, was actually a competent to pretty good starting QB for us. When you trade a top corner for a historically great runner, you are getting more value than you're giving up, so, you pay more. That doesn't mean corners who are great aren't harder to find that runners who are great, because corners are far harder to find. It simply means on the scale of importance, given how much more frequently the runner has the ball and how much more of an impact he makes on the whole of a team, a top running back still has more value than a top corner once both have been identified. The Duckett trade seems to rub people the wrong way and I'm not sure why.

The trade itself is fine. It provides a safety net for the situation where your starter can't ever get going. That happened. The part that angers me is the fact Gibbs couldn't envision what happened with Betts. Duckett only makes sence if you really doubt the players behind your starter. At some point I'd like to see Gibbs value his own guys more than he does. I think that solves more issues than any of us realize today.

[ceviker]

The trade itself is fine. It provides a safety net for the situation where your starter can't ever get going. That happened. The part that angers me is the fact Gibbs couldn't envision what happened with Betts. Duckett only makes sence if you really doubt the players behind your starter. At some point I'd like to see Gibbs value his own guys more than he does. I think that solves more issues than any of us realize today.

I don't think that Gibbs wasn't confident in Betts' ability to be a starter. I believe it was that he did not want to chance Betts getting hurt (has had some previous injury problems) and be left with Rock. I believe it was Rock that he wasn't confident in. :2cents:

[Art]

I don't think that Gibbs wasn't confident in Betts' ability to be a starter. I believe it was that he did not want to chance Betts getting hurt (has had some previous injury problems) and be left with Rock. I believe it was Rock that he wasn't confident in. :2cents:

Fair enough. I still feel Gibbs needs to value HIS guys more than he demonstrates in this go around.

[SkinsFTW]

For months we've been dealing with Madd's assertion that Snyder is MAKING football decisions. I've always stated Gibbs makes all football decisions. Madd has now attempted to turn this into an "involvement" conversation. And, indeed, Snyder is "involved" in EVERY aspect of the organization. And yet, the core fact remains the same. Gibbs makes the decisions.

Does Gibbs decide how much they pay the players they sign?

Seems to me that Snyder is still making decisions, even if those decisions aren't who they try to sign. He does decide whether to pay 30-43M or 10-15M, the former exclusively assigned to other teams players and FA's, while the latter is designated for homegrown, or "Core Redskins".

Does Gibbs also decide on the compensation for traded players like Duckett, Brunell, or Lloyd? Did Gibbs decide a 3rd was right for a RB that he didn't even intend to play, or a 3-4th for a WR with TO like issues in the head? Or was that Snyder?

To me it doesn't really matter which way you split the hairs on him being involved in acquiring players. He still writes the checks and hasn't a clue what the players are actually worth as evidenced by his signings the last few years.

I mean, how many people laughed/cried/got pissed when they heard Brunell's contract numbers in 2004?

Or how about Archuleta's last year? LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Especially since we all knew that a 1M a year contract would have kept Clark here.

I almost feel sorry for Buffalo signing Dockery for that kind of cash but then I realize that Dockery actually has some upside. Brunell, and to some even Archuleta, was considered DONE before he signed that contract? Brunell was Theismann just before LT made it official.

You say, well it was Gibbs. But seriously, do you think any other team in the league was willing to pay Brunell 43M over 7 years? In comparison the Giants signed Kurt Warner for something like 2yr/4Mil the same exact timeframe that the Redskins gave Brunell Top 5 QB money, and Warner was a 2 time MVP in a similar situation as Brunell. Garcia signed for next to nothing and would have been much better, and Brunell even cost us a 3rd rounder, lol.

Sure, you can blame Gibbs but someone with even 1/3rd of a clue needs to be deciding what to pay. Our system has been ****ed up since Bruce Smith, Deion Sanders, Jeff George days and hasn't changed a bit.

Some will say, yeah....but..we get who we want every year so who cares what he spends. But thats BS. We lose good players like Pierce, Smoot, and soon Taylor or Cooley because of seriously overpaying the wrong players. It has to be obvious that when you give an OK player a 10-15M dollar bonus FOR NO REASON you could have just used 1/2 of that to help resign one of your own and offer the OK player a reasonable contract, take it or leave it. (Yes, teams thought the Redskins were idiots for both the Brunell and Archuleta contracts, as well as others)

So, I'd say that Snyder is undeniably a large part of the process and he doesn't do a very good job. On a team that loses as much as we have he shouldn't have to purge our players like NE and Philly does. Those teams are successful and they have many Pro Bowlers that are harder to sign. There is no reason guys like Pierce and Smoot couldn't be in position to get a decent contract here. Philly's Pro Bowlers make less because they sign then at the right time. What happens now when it's Cooley and Taylor who are actually Top 10 players at their position and no new contract is in sight?

I bet we lose Taylor without much discussion and resign Cooley to a huge contract unless he takes the lowball like Betts did and Pierce, Bailey, and Dockery refused.

[onnie007]

Danny=working dad (wd)

Joe=stay at home mom (sahm)

Vinny=child ©

Lance Briggs, etc=xbox

wd and c are surfing on ebay.

they get an email alert about the new xbox, which is up for bid.

wd and c think the xbox is really cool. some outside the family think that the family needs a new dishwasher instead because they already have a ps3 and a wii and their dishwasher's getting up there. but, back to the story.

wd and c approach sahm with the idea of buying the xbox. she gives the okay, but the owner wants more money. the xbox remains available.

who made the decision?

wd makes the money and wants the xbox.

c wants the xbox, explained that it's got high def, but has no purchasing power.

sahm made the final decision.

without wd's money, the purchase cannot be made.

but without sahm's blessing, the purchase also cannot be made.

:laugh: :applause: Nice job!

[illone]

I happen to prefer signing guys who've proven they can play in the NFL more than drafting guys who haven't. I understand some feel otherwise. I just suspect they haven't thought it through.

I used to think this way until last year, although the concept makes sense theoretically. This proves to be a huge mistake when the team signs big contracts in 2006, and misses on players like Archuleta, meanwhile letting go role players like Clark, or Pierce.

Clark would have stayed and played for 1/8th the cost of Arch, not to mention the detriment to team chemisty. he was well liked and from all reports was a good guy in the locker room. Insert Arch, the million dollar man, who got more money than the best player on our defense and you are just asking for trouble.

I know you think the defense was just fine in 2005 without Pierce, and I don't disagree with that. But, we would have been fine with him, too. I just think the team had an opportunity to keep a homegrown player at home, and judging by the contract we gave to Fletcher, we could have had Pierce for the same price, and not gone through as much of a rebuild in 2005+2006, plus kept a younger player who was a core guy. Now we're going to be in the market for another MLB in a few years, whereas Pierce would still be in his prime.

This year will be a pretty good measuring stick because Lloyd and ARE shouldn't take three years to boom or bust. If 2007 is a mediocre year the team is going to have to consider a different approach to the draft and begin to value it more than it has. Either that or take a different approach to free agency and how they grade the players that get big checks.

My suggestion is to structure more deals like Moss' deal from 2005. I remember his new deal being laden with performance based incentives. From what I recall he could have been cut in 2006 with very little cap hit, if any, but since he did well in 2005 and stayed on the roster in 2006, an extra bonus kicked in for him, which was great for everyone.

It's giving guys like Arch $10 mil before they do jack for the team that doesn't sit well with me. What's the difference between that and paying some rookie? Nothing, especially if you draft correctly, which Gibbs has proven he can do.

[skinsn24]

If you draft a guy, you get to teach him his first NFL system. Everything he knows about the NFL will be learned becasue of what you teach him. If you bring in a guy, they already think they know everything, this is why alot of free agents bust, they dont fit well in the system and since they are old NFL players, they dont think they are the problem, they think the system is.

Its kind of like, you cant teach an old dog new tricks kind of deal...Obviously there are exceptions, it just seems that alot of FAs suck and just clock there big check, not just on the Skins but around the league.

Now that i think of it, i think Characatar is very imporant in bringing in an FA, they need to be willing to change and do whats best for the new team.

[praise_gibbs]

What do I not understand?

A heck of a lot. And thank you for bringing that up!!

[TSO]

Man I can't believe these mods banned all those guys.

Oh, and Snyder is the final decision maker according to the presser. It's obvious people. These mods are such idiots. Especially Fart... I mean Art.

:jk:

Please don't kill me.

[MartinC]

Danny=working dad (wd)

Joe=stay at home mom (sahm)

Vinny=child ©

Lance Briggs, etc=xbox

wd and c are surfing on ebay.

they get an email alert about the new xbox, which is up for bid.

wd and c think the xbox is really cool. some outside the family think that the family needs a new dishwasher instead because they already have a ps3 and a wii and their dishwasher's getting up there. but, back to the story.

wd and c approach sahm with the idea of buying the xbox. she gives the okay, but the owner wants more money. the xbox remains available.

who made the decision?

wd makes the money and wants the xbox.

c wants the xbox, explained that it's got high def, but has no purchasing power.

sahm made the final decision.

without wd's money, the purchase cannot be made.

but without sahm's blessing, the purchase also cannot be made.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Damn - you just described my life.

There is one difference, in my version I buy the xbox and when the wife asks what the hell this is I say 'Oh that we have had that for months dear' .....

[Forever21]

yeah ok so that XBox thing could be the best thing ever posted on ES ever...

[Cane Corso21]

Is this the thread for four year olds spatting over something not really worth spatting...........who cares I love it!!!!!:applause: :applause:

Art is the man.....

[Monte51Coleman]

This thread has gotten way off track....

can we please get back to banning people?

[Tastes Like Chicken]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Damn - you just described my life.

There is one difference, in my version I buy the xbox and when the wife asks what the hell this is I say 'Oh that we have had that for months dear' .....

You=Jerry Jones

Your wife=Bill Parcells

xbox= Terrell Owens

No offense intended dude, I mean you're married to man-boobs in a figurative sense, not literally...

[MartinC]

You=Jerry Jones

Your wife=Bill Parcells

xbox= Terrell Owens

No offense intended dude, I mean you're married to man-boobs in a figurative sense, not literally...

:puke:

Shudder .......even the thought of marriage and man-boobs is an image I want to get out of my head.

[TK]

I don't think that Gibbs wasn't confident in Betts' ability to be a starter. I believe it was that he did not want to chance Betts getting hurt (has had some previous injury problems) and be left with Rock. I believe it was Rock that he wasn't confident in. :2cents:

Fair enough. I still feel Gibbs needs to value HIS guys more than he demonstrates in this go around.

I'm inclined to believe that it was Betts' history of getting injured & missing games every season. With CP's status in question at the time of the trade for Duckett, That left Gibbs with injury prone Betts & Rock. Who would spell Rock if Betts was out of a game or three due to injury? In hindsight, maybe if they had keep Jesse the Canadian Wonderkund, the Duckett trade would never have happened.

[Taylor 36]

:applause: :applause:

It required Gibbs to make the official offer, but Danny seemed to be the one intially interested.

What I don't get is if Rosenscum went to Snyder with an offer and Danny said, "No, we don't need Briggs," after it became public, all of the Danny haters would be screaming "Snyder shouldn't be making that call; it is not his job; he is over-stepping Gibbs, etc."

Yet, when he is approached by an agent and says that he will run it by Gibbs, that makes him a meddler and the only one with interest which is why the team went after LB in the eyes of the haters.

Some people really need to make up their minds.:doh:

[ttr77]

you're having trouble seperating Art the Mod from Art the poster. Of course, you're also proposing something that the rules state that we will never do nor allow someone to make that false claim.

I'm having trouble seperating them. Art the Poster started a thread that's title itself is a bit demeaning, and Art the Mod has banned people for taking the bait.

I feel like I need to walk on eggshells here...that I should feel honored to be allowed to join and participate in these important discussion.

But, after all, isn't this only a football team we are talking about?

[ttr77]

Here is a fun multiple choice question for everyone:

Which of the following is a true statement?

a) "I did not have sex with that woman" - Bill Clinton

"We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." - George Bush, speaking about Saddam Hussein

c) "My role is to sign the check, pay whatever is required for players to end up on the best side of getting a deal done for the sake of the organization." - Dan Snyder

d) "Public figures will say whatever they want in order to push their own agenda and/or avoid admitting that they are wrong." - ttr77

Personally, my vote would be d.

[Monte51Coleman]

I feel like I need to walk on eggshells here...that I should feel honored to be allowed to join and participate in these important discussion.

Don't you think you're being just a tad melodramatic?

[The Dude]

Man I can't believe these mods banned all those guys.

Their proper grammar and civil posts were a detriment to this board.

[SkinsFTW]

I'm having trouble seperating them. Art the Poster started a thread that's title itself is a bit demeaning, and Art the Mod has banned people for taking the bait.

Exactly.

This place has turned into the exact thing they said it would never be when they sold out to the team, unfortunately.

Go back and look at posts from 2005 when the team bought the site. Most posters had doubts, and they have all come true.

It was going to be all about us, the fans. The fans would have a voice here since we now have access. It was all about the fans access, remember? What access? We now have access to nothing but propaganda distributed from a Redskins cheerleading outfit wearing Art. :laugh:

Too bad our only access is to belligerant *******s who look at a hotdog and tell us that it is in fact a Spiced Kielbasa dipped in mustard and if we don't agree we will be put on read only.

Mods (Art) are on the roster all of a sudden and get defensive with every derogatory mention of Snyder. Snyder has brought the team nothing, but we are going to win every year, as long as every year is next year. :2cents:

[onedrop]

Exactly.

This place has turned into the exact thing they said it would never be when they sold out to the team, unfortunately.

Go back and look at posts from 2005 when the team bought the site. Most posters had doubts, and they have all come true.

It was going to be all about us, the fans. The fans would have a voice here since we now have access. It was all about the fans access, remember? What access? We now have access to nothing but propaganda distributed from a Redskins cheerleading outfit wearing Art. :laugh:

Too bad our only access is to belligerant *******s who look at a hotdog and tell us that it is in fact a Spiced Kielbasa dipped in mustard and if we don't agree we will be put on read only.

Mods (Art) are on the roster all of a sudden and get defensive with every derogatory mention of Snyder. Snyder has brought the team nothing, but we are going to win every year, as long as every year is next year. :2cents:

no one forces you to come here. if you have become disenchanted, leave.

[drowland]

What I don't get is if Rosenscum went to Snyder with an offer and Danny said, "No, we don't need Briggs," after it became public, all of the Danny haters would be screaming "Snyder shouldn't be making that call; it is not his job; he is over-stepping Gibbs, etc."

Yet, when he is approached by an agent and says that he will run it by Gibbs, that makes him a meddler and the only one with interest which is why the team went after LB in the eyes of the haters.

Some people really need to make up their minds.:doh:

Either way Snyder should tell Drew "go talk to Joe." He didn't do that. He and Drew cooked up a deal, then took it to Joe.

[Hostile]

Hi Skins fans. Some of you know me from CowboysZone, others of you may not. I just wanted to say a thing or two about Snyder having input. I hope you will forgive my intrusion. I don't post here very often, but respect the site and several of the posters.

Let me begin by saying I am no fan of Dan Snyder and have no reason to defend him. That is exactly what I am about to do.

If Dan Snyder had absolutely no role in the football operations of your team he would be branded as an owner who does not care. Just my opinion, but that is the worst thing about some teams. I don't think you can say that at all.

From where I sit this man has given you guys an amazing stadium and he got a Hall of Fame Head Coach to come back to your franchise to try and turn it around. If the personnel moves have not netted you the success you crave as fans, it hasn't been for lack of effort. I don't agree with some of the moves and some of you probably don't either. No team can say every move they make is good.

Regardless of the level of his involvement in player personnel moves you should want him to be involved. No different than every scout and assistant coach for their positions as well as the Head Coach and GM. The more people you have involved the better, and that includes the owner, IMO.

Anyway, just thought I'd share that view from the outside.