Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Hard to see any evidence that would lead me to believe he DOES want to be here, other then some coach speak in a few pressers... 

 

After covering the final game of the season last year against the Giants, about 45 minutes after he threw that backbreaking pick to DRC, I was in the press box working on the game photos.  It was practically empty, JimmiJo and the rest of the press corps were downstairs for the blow by blow.

 

They piped in the audio for Cousins presser and one of the reporters gave him a softball question. I mean, it was belt high, down the middle, essentially "Do you want to be here next season?"

 

And he didn't say.... "Yes, without a doubt, I'd love to be a Redskin for the rest of my career" or whatever cliche phrase you think an athlete would say.

 

He said something like "Well, that's not really up to me...."  You probably remember this.

 

I was floored.  Couldn't believe it.  Even if he didn't MEAN it he should have said all the right things.  But nope.  I think for that moment, he let through what he really thinks of it here.

 

  

[Darth Tater]

@PartyPosse

 

Aside from the fans of other teams who would probably think our QB was mediocre even if we had Tom Brady of 2007, the Redskin fans are pretty much the ONLY group that has a large number of people who think Kirk can't be a top-shelf QB.

 

Overall, we really don't have a large enough dataset but Kirk as a starter has always been a slow starter.  Over the first 6.25 games in 2015, he looked like nothing more than a good game manager at the high-end. In the first couple of games last season, he looked like a play maker who could not make plays and even his game management skills were lacking.  He has had crappy games but name me one QB who has never had several crappy games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spearfeather]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

Hard to see any evidence that would lead me to believe he DOES want to be here, other then some coach speak in a few pressers... 

 

Other than Kirk saying he likes the direction of the team, loves the area, wants to remain a Redskin, and hopes " we can work something out for the next five or six years ", I think you're right.

[OVCChairman]

Just now, Spearfeather said:

 

Other than Kirk saying he likes the direction of the team, loves the area, wants to remain a Redskin, and hopes " we can work something out for the next five or six years ", I think your right.

talk is cheap, Kirk aint stupid.  He's auditioning, and he knows he's on display for every other team in the league... saving face is a big part of contract negotiations now.  To believe Kirk is dedicated to the Redskins is not something I'm willing to do, til the rubber meets the road.  I haven't heard of his camp even offering a counter offer to a contract since 2015, so it's hard for me to believe he's got some sort of loyalty... the old saying "Actions speak louder then words" comes to mind.  

8 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

After covering the final game of the season last year against the Giants, about 45 minutes after he threw that backbreaking pick to DRC, I was in the press box working on the game photos.  It was practically empty, JimmiJo and the rest of the press corps were downstairs for the blow by blow.

 

They piped in the audio for Cousins presser and one of the reporters gave him a softball question. I mean, it was belt high, down the middle, essentially "Do you want to be here next season?"

 

And he didn't say.... "Yes, without a doubt, I'd love to be a Redskin for the rest of my career" or whatever cliche phrase you think an athlete would say.

 

He said something like "Well, that's not really up to me...."  You probably remember this.

 

I was floored.  Couldn't believe it.  Even if he didn't MEAN it he should have said all the right things.  But nope.  I think for that moment, he let through what he really thinks of it here.

 

  

Remember it very well... i couldn't believe it either.  That is when it truly sunk in to me that the guy probably does not want to be here.  He's said all the right things this season thus far, and after he signed his franchise tag.  In the world we live in now, to expect someone to not be playing some sort of an angle is a little narrow minded and naive.  Its ALL calculated.  Agents know this kind of stuff, they study it, they're as much public opinion attorneys as they are sports agents.  

[Skinsinparadise]

35 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

I think if you're gonna sever ties with Kirk, this draft is your best opportunity to do it. I understand most people like Kirk more because they have no faith that the FO will find a capable replacement and not because they're in love with Kirk's game. 

 

I don't know about "most" people.  I put myself in a stronger position than that.  I am more than happy with Kirk as the QB.  The fact that I have no faith in the FO to find a replacement is just gravy to that point.  Judging by talk radio or even threads here -- most want Kirk locked in.  Yeah you got some hiccups in that thought in the aftermath of a loss but this off season I think it was pretty clear most fans wanted Kirk back. 

 

35 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

I think if you're gonna sever ties with Kirk, this draft is your best opportunity to do it.

 

Who do you like in this specific draft who you think is another Kirk or better that you think we'd be in reach to take?

 

35 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

We can all agree their last drive looked great. However, in regards to the other 58 minutes, do you think we need a 25 million dollar QB to run that offense? Granted all games aren't gonna be like that and there are gonna be games where we're going to have to air it out, but woul you be happy with the style of offense we ran out there yesterday? If the answer is yes then we don't necessarily need a QB earning top 5 money. 

 

To each their own but I don't think there is any relevance to this point.  The game plan will likely be different from game to game.  This isn't Kirk's first season where we are judging him for the first time with sweeping assessments.  

 

35 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

I do think weapons make a QB look better.

 

Agree on this one.

 

35 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

Kirk isn't all that accurate and last year Desean, Garcon and Crowder helped masked that.

 

Couldn't disagree more.  Guys that throw the ball that crazy much and still produce a 67%-70% completion rate are VERY accurate.  Yeah not every game, no one is.   And I like D. Jax and Garcon I think better than most.  I wanted to bring back one this season.  But we are getting a bit carried away.  Neither guy is a pro bowler for a reason.   

 

35 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 In the RZ the margin for error is much smaller. Receivers can't bail out Kirk as much an he doesn't have enough confidence in himself or his receivers to make a higher-risk through - especially when Reed is out. That's why we're so conservative in that part of the field. 

 

If I recall last season the Redskins were dead last or close to it for runs in the red zone.  Hopefully that changes this year.  When you get one dimensional in the red zone -- much easier to stop.  I agree that Kirk could play better in the red zone but its more than just on him IMO.

 

35 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I do think Kirk is better than JAG but he's closer to JAG than elite.

 

Not me.   I've seen our share of JAGs here.  Kirk is night and day better.  

[Riggo'sRangers]

28 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

@PartyPosse

Aside from the fans of other teams who would probably think our QB was mediocre even if we had Tom Brady of 2007, the Redskin fans are pretty much the ONLY group that has a large number of people who think Kirk can't be a top-shelf QB.....but Kirk as a starter has always been a slow starter...He has had crappy games but name me one QB who has never had several crappy games.

I get this and understand.  I started this damn thread and I LIKE Kirk.  Ok, that said, let us leave Tom Brady out of the conversation.  It's not fair to Kirk. Redskins fans are the ONLY group that think Kirk can't be a top shelf starter?  I'm not so sure that is accurate. Not in any way form or fashion.  The slow starter thing, be it Gruden, Training Camp, Kirk, whatever, we need to solve that, yesterday.  What sucks is these unimportant games in the early part of the schedule (I am being facetious-NO such thing) is that it comes back to bite us in the ass ever year.  We cannot afford slow starts.  Every single game is monumental. This is not baseball or basketball with multitudes of games to "make it up".  It is paramount to win at every opportunity.  You know what though?  Kirk looks better earlier than I have seen him before.  It is usually game 3 or 4 before it kicks in.  I was/am really pleased with the win, and Kirk's performance in LA. We'll see, but I was happy with Kirk and the coaching. Please let the injury gods be kind to us.  Hail

[OVCChairman]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Not me.   I've seen our share of JAGs here.  Kirk is night and day better.  

All due respect, our JAGs have been terrible.  Last TRUE JAG that wasn't a 'bad QB' was probably Brunell.  Most of the kirfluffle we've had since that has been well below 'JAG' status and closer to 'BAD' status. 

 

 

A lot of factors have influenced Kirk's successes and failures.  Weapons, coaches, schemes... whatever you want to attribute it to.  My personal stance is that I don't know if I want to pay a guy who is THAT influenced by stuff and not as capable of overcoming those influences, that kind of money.  I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, or that he's not head and shoulder above any QB we've had in a while, but the FO screwed up and now his market value has ballooned up to a level that I have a hard time looking at and seeing as a contract thats worth it. 

 

This is supposed to be the deepest QB draft in some time... and more and more young QBs are having success in the NFL.  Is that because they are talented, and the team around them is built better with the money not used on a top-tier QB?  Could be.  Could be they are better groomed in the college game as well.  

 

Bottom line is that more and more I feel like we can get similar production for a much better value.  I also understand it very well may be a risk.  One that some people aren't willing to take because the confidence in our F.O. in being able to pull it off is not there, and i completely understand and respect that.  It is not a very good position to be in, especially since we thought we had OUR GUY and now, the chances of him leaving are greater then the chances that he stays, whether it be our FO or Kirk that ultimately is the deciding factor.  

[PartyPosse]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I recall last season the Redskins were dead last or close to it for runs in the red zone.  Hopefully that changes this year.  When you get one dimensional in the red zone -- much easier to stop.  I agree that Kirk could play better in the red zone but its more than just on him IMO.

The blueprint was easy for defenses. Load up against the run and force Kirk to throw. He's reluctant to throw it down the middle either because he's not confident in himself or because he's not accurate (see: Crowder, Week 1). As much as you want to say that poor rushing performance in red zone is a huge reason why Kirk struggled, the same applies the other way around. Also, his ability to improvise on breakdowns don't help either which is another reason why defenses tend to be so aggressive deep in their own zone.

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

The blueprint was easy for defenses. Load up against the run and force Kirk to throw. He's reluctant to throw it down the middle either because he's not confident in himself or because he's not accurate (see: Crowder, Week 1). As much as you want to say that poor rushing performance in red zone is a huge reason why Kirk struggled, the same applies the other way around. Also, his ability to improvise on breakdowns don't help either which is another reason why defenses tend to be so aggressive deep in their own zone.

 

I agree that they both go hand in hand but I saw it the opposite. Defenses were only rushing 4 or maybe 5. They dropped 6 or 7 in coverage and dared the team to run. They also took Reed out when he was in and not injured (effectively taking himself out). He saw a lot of double and triple teams in the RZ.

 

Does that mean he did not struggle? Not at all. He clearly took a step back in the RZ, for what ever reason. But while your theory can generally be correct, I think game film shows a little different story in this case. Lot's of guys in coverage.

[Spearfeather]

55 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

.... the old saying "Actions speak louder then words" comes to mind.  

 

 

I agree. He's still here and hasn't asked for a trade.

 

 

[Veryoldschool]

There is no pleasing many Kirk's critics, dissing Cousins has because a religious duty for some them.  Many hated his presence on the Skins from the moment he was drafted and I believe some to this day partially blame Kirk for his predecessors abject failure.  Never mind the other guy ended tits up in Cleveland also, its Kirk's fault or fault of the two coaching staffs that liked Kirk better, again Kirk's fault.

 

Kirk turned a pathetic, failing team into a modestly successful one in his first two seasons starting almost solely on the basis of his passing and shredded the franchise passing records in the process.  Instead of feeling gratitude and excitement a big portion of the fan base resent him and measure the ccomplishments of Kirk's first 2 years starting against the entry standards to the HOF.  The Skins have a young Pro Bowl QB and a big portion of the fan base want to draft a QB because "Cousins isn't the guy." I find his critics absurd, utterly absurd in this thread and others but I offer them this solace Kirk will be playing for another team in 2018.  Barring a surprise trip to the playoffs it's 2 games down and 14 more to go with the Kirkster.  

 

 

[Spearfeather]

7 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 Barring a surprise trip to the playoffs it's 2 games down and 14 more to go with the Kirkster.  

 

 

That could very well be true. A lot of it could depend on what Kirk does this year.

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

All due respect, our JAGs have been terrible.  Last TRUE JAG that wasn't a 'bad QB' was probably Brunell.  Most of the kirfluffle we've had since that has been well below 'JAG' status and closer to 'BAD' status. 

 

 

Disagree, I think JC is just about a perfect example of a JAG. Like Hoyer he's a borderline starter-backup type. If we let Kirk go the JAG likely running the show here would be Colt McCoy.

 

I agree Brunell was the best of that lot.  If you compare him to Kirk statistically its not even comparable.  It's comical. Kirk's so so performance by his standards yesterday easily beats Mark's total QB rating any year he was here. 

 

57 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

This is supposed to be the deepest QB draft in some time... and more and more young QBs are having success in the NFL.  Is that because they are talented, and the team around them is built better with the money not used on a top-tier QB?  Could be.  Could be they are better groomed in the college game as well.  

 

 

If you got a top 3 pick in the draft you have a shot at one of the upper echelon guys, that increases your odds.  You drop down from those spots -- yeah I am not seeing rollicking success from these young QB's.  Dak Prescott is a unique find versus finding someone like him are a dime a dozen.  If you go through the article I posted about how Dallas found Dak, it was a fluke because they actually had their designs on Lynch not Dak.    

 

The article gets into how random the process is as to scoping out QBs in the draft.  I was watching a Bruce Arians interview not long ago (considering by some as one of the premier QB gurus) and he talked about hoe hard it is to scope out college QBs and project NFL success.  

 

In the same draft (which was considered one of the deeper drafts for QB in some time) where Dallas got Dak in the 4th we got these guys:  Lynch in the first, Hackenberg in the 2nd, Brissett in the 3rd, Kessler in the 3rd, Cook in the 4th.   Want one of those guys? 

 

As for this draft being the draft for it, is that just running with the buzz or do you have a specific QB that you like that you think will be available at our pick?

 

52 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

The blueprint was easy for defenses. Load up against the run and force Kirk to throw. He's reluctant to throw it down the middle either because he's not confident in himself or because he's not accurate (see: Crowder, Week 1). As much as you want to say that poor rushing performance in red zone is a huge reason why Kirk struggled, the same applies the other way around. Also, his ability to improvise on breakdowns don't help either which is another reason why defenses tend to be so aggressive deep in their own zone.

 

Really.  Teams loading up versus the run to stop the Redskins versus the pass.    It's sort of Belichick in reverse stop the opponent's weakness and let them play to their strengths.   If Kirk's receivers were so special as you alluded to why wouldn't the opponent's defenses gear up to stop them?  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/09/28/a-closer-look-at-the-redskins-red-zone-problems-and-how-to-fix-them/?utm_term=.1b4d33c74373

Failing to score in the red zone is one of the most frustrating issues for a team, but Washington should be able to fix this problem. The first way to fix it is to run the ball more. Rarely has Washington called a conventional running play in the red zone so far this season. Running the ball is a threat itself, especially if Washington is creative with different looks and formations. But the threat of running the ball is key. If defenses believe Washington will run the ball, then they’ll become vulnerable to the play-action game, which is what made Washington so successful last season.

[PartyPosse]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Really.  Teams loading up versus the run to stop the Redskins versus the pass.    It's sort of Belichick in reverse stop the opponent's weakness and let them play to their strengths.   If Kirk's receivers were so special as you alluded to why wouldn't the opponent's defenses gear up to stop them?  

Because he rarely throws in the middle and he tends to throw off his back foot A LOT which means he's floating the ball. No wonder he won't risk down the middle. The whole point to getting guys like Pryor and Doctson were big physical bodies in the redzone to accompany Reed. Problem is he's not throwing to them. He never throw to that portion of the redzone last year too, opting for fades and uncatchable bullets out of the endzone that almost got Reed killed last year. It's really either Reed or corner fades. 

[skinny21]

6 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 

I think the following are either untrue, or are blown out of proportion on the board:

He's not clutch 

He can't carry the team

His contract will harm the team

He's an average QB

He sucks in the RZ

He plays poorly when pressured

He's not a leader

 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

I do think some of those are true and in regards to some he's actually regressed over time. For example the RZ issue. As nice as the throw to Grant was, it also magnifies an issue with Kirk that I feel doesn't get touched on enough. If you look at all his throws in the RZ, especially in the end zone, they are ALWAYS outside the hash marks. He was afraid all last season to throw in the middle of the field either. Everything is a fade or short quick passes to RB. In 2015 he was confident throwing to Reed in that area but has been absolutely terrified to do it since. I feel like it's been that way ever since the INT against Dallas. If hes afraid of making a mistake then I don't want to pay a QB 28 million if he doesn't have the confidence. Obviously it's a huge deal as it is a clear sign as to why the RZ struggles exist. Blame playcalling all you want but it's easy to defend when you don't have to worry about a good chunk of the field. Kirk does have major accuracy issues and has a hard time with touch passes. He's got great arm strength and anticipation but as the field gets smaller so does his ability to complete passes. Do you think they keep calling fades because it's fun? No, it's a low-risk option that may work.

Sure, his RZ game regressed.  With only two years to go off of, it's hard to tell what the norm would be for him.  

 

So far, he's got 2 FGs, 2 TDs and 1 Int in 5 RZ trips.  He has got to avoid the RZ turnovers.  

 

I'm not sure what to make of your first sentence though.  Some are true and some he's regressed in?  There were only 7, lol.  

 

The RZ issue would be one that is overblown... he sucked last year, but was (I think) quite good before that.  So to treat it as though he just plain sucks in the RZ is over the top.  Doesn't hurt to factor in the defenses he faced last year.  Did he have the toughest schedule vs RZ defenses?

 

Someone (I should have quoted them), mentioned the pressure issue is real, but that is true for most every qb.  Where does he rank under pressure?  I've seen various stats on this and I'm not yet convinced either way.  

 

I've done some of the legwork on both the clutch angle as well as the contract/cap situation... I'll leave that there for now.  

 

 Can't agree that he's not a leader.  Kirk's play in 2015 and 2016, with large deficiencies in both the run game and the defense, tells me that Kirk can carry the team.  Those two years as starter also showed Kirk is better than just an average qb... unless the argument is that TDs and wins are the only things that matter.  

[Fat Stupid Loser]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

I agree that they both go hand in hand but I saw it the opposite. Defenses were only rushing 4 or maybe 5. They dropped 6 or 7 in coverage and dared the team to run. They also took Reed out when he was in and not injured (effectively taking himself out). He saw a lot of double and triple teams in the RZ.

 

Does that mean he did not struggle? Not at all. He clearly took a step back in the RZ, for what ever reason. But while your theory can generally be correct, I think game film shows a little different story in this case. Lot's of guys in coverage.

Exactly. Defenses knew we couldn't run and defended the pass in a short field. They took away the only thing we could do. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Because he rarely throws in the middle and he tends to throw off his back foot A LOT which means he's floating the ball. No wonder he won't risk down the middle. 

 

I had a hard time finding it, I recall one of those metrics sites had Kirk's accuracy the highest up the middle (center), ironically.  I found this which showed in 2016 accuracy at his best in the middle

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/washington-redskins/redskins-stat-breakdown-looking-where-kirk-cousins-most-and-least-accurate

[zCommander]

5 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

Seriously, I need a girlfriend.

 

Hold up. You live in Vegas and you have a problem finding a girlfriend... 

[SkinsFTW]

Did anybody else see that GB Packer JAG throw the dumbest INT of the year and then later have his fumble returned for a TD?

 

I wonder who they're going to be drafting as his replacement.

[zCommander]

This is from today on the radio with Kirk, he does this every Monday after the game, on The Fan 106.7 DC

 

Quote

Cousins did what was needed to win the game, to be sure, but 18-of-27 for 179 yards passing (and one TD) — especially when contrasted with the Redskins’ 229 yards on the ground — is a far cry from the team’s high-flying air assault in 2016.

 

“It felt different than last year,” Cousins said of Sunday’s game. “Obviously, I was used to last year throwing the ball 40 times and expecting to be throwing it on first, second and third down. Yesterday, I think the plan all along going into the game was, ‘Let’s try to run the ball. First down, let’s commit to run the football throughout the game. Let’s not get away from it, even if it’s not succeeding.'”

 

“And then when it did succeed, and we had so much production, I think we wanted to run it even more — first, second down, as much as we could,” he said. “That obviously takes away opportunities in the passing game, but I’m not complaining about it. I’m happy to hand the ball off and have production there and move the football.”

 

The lingering question: Was this game plan specific to the Rams, or should fans expect to see Cousins revert back into a game-manager in 2017? While there’s no way to answer that now, remember back to when these teams last met, almost two years ago to the date. The Redskins’ game plan Sunday was identical to how they beat the Rams — which had largely the same front seven — in Sept. 2015.

 

Cousins completed 23 of 27 passes for 203 yards and a touchdown. The Redskins gashed the Rams with their rushing attack, with Matt Jones and Alfred Morris combining for 182 yards and two touchdowns in the 24-10 win.

 

“I think still you’d love to see more production through the air, regardless,” Cousins said. “But I think for the most part we played the game that was called, and we played the game that came to us, and not every game calls for a lot of drop-backs on first down and chucking the ball downfield. I think each game calls for a different plan, and as long as we get the win, I think we executed the plan that was called.”

 

 

More Here http://washington.cbslocal.com/2017/09/18/kirk-cousins-expecting-first-child-any-day-now-no-news-yet/

[Destino]

3 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

All due respect, our JAGs have been terrible.  Last TRUE JAG that wasn't a 'bad QB' was probably Brunell.  Most of the kirfluffle we've had since that has been well below 'JAG' status and closer to 'BAD' status.

There are three types of QBs that get starting time in the NFL.  1st contract, journeyman, and franchise.  JAG would imply journeyman level QB and all of them are painfully mediocre.  Guys like Hoyer, McCown, and Glennon.  That's exactly what the skins have had.  Kirk isn't close to that level of play.  People seem to forget that the passing offense, was essentially the only offense the last two seasons.  JAGs do not carry their teams offensively.  They throw check downs and hope your defense and running game is enough to win. 

 

[KDawg]

I don't believe for a second that he wants to be the Redskins quarterback, at least like he seems to imply. First, consider what @Spaceman Spiff said above... Second, I think you can see it in his performance.

 

Last season he seemed to have a lot more vigor to him. Dude got amped up. Same as the season before. Yeah, we liked that, Kirk.

 

The first two games he seems extremely melancholy. It's like he knows he's either going to be the highest paid QB in the NFL and a Washington Redskin, or he's going to be the starting quarterback in San Francisco (or who knows, maybe somewhere else). I don't necessarily think he doesn't want to be a Redskin. But I do think he's not really married to the idea. He shows flashes of the old Kirk, like his exchange with Grant yesterday... But he just seems so... quiet.

 

I wasn't impressed with Cousins yesterday, but I can't say anything too strong, either. One of the criticisms I had was that he made too many game changing mistakes to be a franchise guy... But Kirk came through when the team needed him yesterday and helped to win the football game. Can't say much there. He did what I've been hoping he'd do. I've been a Cousins fan up until somewhat recently, and I do believe he can do it. But he's got to consistently show that or he's not worth the amount of cap space he'd eat.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

36 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Did anybody else see that GB Packer JAG throw the dumbest INT of the year and then later have his fumble returned for a TD?

 

I wonder who they're going to be drafting as his replacement.

Its probably because he has accuracy issues and is terrified to throw in the middle of the field. And when he does, its off his back foot. 

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Its probably because he has accuracy issues and is terrified to throw in the middle of the field. And when he does, he drinks 

 

 

[Bonez3]

Curt is an average QB who played slightly below average Sunday. 

 

Again, to pay him 25 mil a year for 5 years would be absurd.