Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[heyholetsgogrant]

4 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Bengals players want Kaepernick...If Lewis benches Dalton..do we make a play for him and reunite Gruden and Dalton as contract leverage???

I'm on board with this, neither is really better than the other.  But what's to stop Andy Dalton to ask for big money, Kirk can ask for it, why can't Dalton?  Will teams finally wake up stop paying average QB's stupid money next season?

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

I will ask you this though, do you think it's likely that the FO is able to put the pieces around Kirk to get us there?  Do you see the talent available to make that happen before Kirk has reached the tipping point of his career?  The FO could surprise us all and make some KEY, smart moves that make a difference... It's hard to say.  Jay is currently signed through 2020, so if we're gonna take that major step, it's gotta happen by the end of next season, or the rumbles are gonna get louder and louder, and if we do sign Kirk to the LTD, and we start slow next year, is Gruden still around, or is Kirk once again going to be learning a new system 2 years before his deal ends?   

I certainly don't have a ton of faith in this FO.  The scouts seem to be doing a good job, though it's difficult to parse exactly who had done what.  

 

Thing is, I'm pretty happy with how this team is being built.  The talent level on defense looks much better than it's been in a long time.  We have a good amount of young, defensive draftees that are starting, contributing, or are developing as depth.  We have some interesting young guys on offense as well - Perine, Roullier, Sprinkle, Kalis, Davis.  We also have extended some key guys in Reed, Williams and Kerrigan.  

 

So I'm actually really optimistic that the team is being built in a good manner.  It should also be noted that they've done this while paying a lot of money for Kirk.    That money didn't preclude us from signing some key guys in FA - Brown, Pryor, McClain, McGee, Quick, as well as re-signing some guys.  It's perfectly legitimate to question not re-signing Garçon, Jackson and Baker, though I'd argue that we could have worked out the financials.  If they made an error there, it was a judgement call as opposed to the FO being forced into it for cap reasons. 

 

As for the future, we'll have enough money to re-sign some key guys, and/or some FAs even if we pay Kirk 25mil.  The draft should continue to be the focus of course.  We've been up and down in terms of draft success, but I'm generally happy with the direction things have gone in this regard.  

 

So, I'm not necessarily seeing 1) that we have to chose between Kirk and the team around him, or 2) that this FO cannot succeed in improving the team.  

 

Wish we had re-signed Kirk at a better rate and that we had retained either Garçon or Jackson, but there are things to be happy/optimistic about.  The Kirk contract has, unfortunately, become a wrench in the psychological workings of the fan base... and it's hard to forgive the FO for that.  

 

[Bonez3]

8 hours ago, Gregpeck99 said:

Kirk is playing at a level not as good as Alex Smith.

 

 

Not even close and will never have the success (at least with the Redskins) that Smith achieved.

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

 

Wish we had re-signed Kirk at a better rate and that we had retained either Garçon or Jackson, but there are things to be happy/optimistic about.  The Kirk contract has, unfortunately, become a wrench in the psychological workings of the fan base... and it's hard to forgive the FO for that.  

 

I'm with you... and the confidence in the FO is trending in the right direction.  The skeptic in me wonders how much of this was Scot, and now that he's gone if we will regress.  The optimist in me see's what Bruce did just prior to Scot, and wonders if Scot was not the true foundation of the progress we're seeing.  The team is absolutely better now than it was last year.  It's looking like it's pointed in the right direction.  That is where my 'confidence' has a little sparkle with us being able to find a solid QB option post-kirk.  I say this and in the offseason it can all just as easily blow up in my face.  It's anyones opinion what the next move is, and we will only ever witness 1 path of those multiple opinions.  Lets hope we pick the right one. 

[Bonez3]

To me, it's all about the cap %. That actually reflects your value to the team. An agent does their job and rates his player relative to the position market. A GM needs to assess the team. 

 

Curt is worth 20 mil a year. That will be roughly 11% of the cap next year. That allows us to sign Zach Brown, who is looking every bit the part of anchor in the middle. Curt at 25 mil without a crucial piece like that, 7-9, 8-8. Curt taking a great salary that is appropriate for his talent level and friendly for the team, I'm all for.

 

On the far end of the spectrum. We let him walk, save 20 mil and hire more mercs. Not really useful in todays NFL. Unfortunately, the middle ground is the least likely scenario.

[skinny21]

Yeah, that's the thing for me @OVCChairman - I keep defending Kirk because I disagree with many of the points made against him, especially how a LTD will destroy the chance to improve the team around him.  I do see some legitimate concerns with Kirk though -

How good do his weapons have to be for him to play at a high level?

Is last year an accurate picture of his RZ play?

Can he continue to improve?

Can he step up vs tough defenses?

Can he get better at throwing with a good base when pressured?

 

If those questions linger after this year, and/or his subpar play continues, there's no way he will be worth re-signing.  If he can return to his high level of play and maybe answer some of those questions positively, than he'll be well worth it... particularly because (as I've said repeatedly) I don't see a LTD deal as a hindrance to this team continuing to build.  

 

 

By the way, more than once I've given some specifics as to why I think we're fine financially, yet I keep seeing posters making the same claim/assumption with very little to back it up.  Ok, that's not entirely fair... people have pointed out the history of winning teams/qbs in relation to salary cap percentage, but I'd argue that history is being made in terms of  qb salaries, so that kind of messes with that data.  Haven't seen any specifics though regarding our team's inability to improve if we re-sign Kirk.  

 

 

Ha!  Good timing @Bonez3!

I'm not sure what you're saying there though... that Kirk signing for 25 per means we can't sign Brown?

[OVCChairman]

17 minutes ago, Bonez3 said:

To me, it's all about the cap %. That actually reflects your value to the team. An agent does their job and rates his player relative to the position market. A GM needs to assess the team. 

 

Curt is worth 20 mil a year. That will be roughly 11% of the cap next year. That allows us to sign Zach Brown, who is looking every bit the part of anchor in the middle. Curt at 25 mil without a crucial piece like that, 7-9, 8-8. Curt taking a great salary that is appropriate for his talent level and friendly for the team, I'm all for.

 

On the far end of the spectrum. We let him walk, save 20 mil and hire more mercs. Not really useful in todays NFL. Unfortunately, the middle ground is the least likely scenario.

This is where I'm at.  I've never been AGAINST signing Kirk... just questioning whether we want to go all out and pay above market value to keep him here.  My gut tells me $20 mil a year doesn't get it done, because we've alienated ourselves from him and his camp.  He has all the leverage, we've handed it to him, and like I've said all along... It's not that I want to get rid of him... more that I dont know if we can afford him.  Inflating ourselves ABOVE market value would be a possible problem down the road. 

[HOF44]

I think Kirk is going to get at least 15% of somebodies cap.  Maybe as high as 17% depending on the balance of this season.  Rogers last contract had him receiving 18% of the cap at the time.

[Bonez3]

 

@skinny21... Not exactly Brown, but pick any high quality player/pro bowler year after year for the duration of his contract. At 18-20 mil over 5 years, the Skins could have the ability to sign quality parts that would allow for Curt & the Skins to ultimately prosper. At 25 mil+ a year, which is where he will be coming in at the negotiation table, that won't be possible.

[skinny21]

1 minute ago, Bonez3 said:

 

@skinny21... Not exactly Brown, but pick any high quality player/pro bowler year after year for the duration of his contract. At 18-20 mil over 5 years, the Skins could have the ability to sign quality parts that would allow for Curt & the Skins to ultimately prosper. At 25 mil+ a year, which is where he will be coming in at the negotiation table, that won't be possible.

I get what you're saying, but looking at this roster going forward, I see them having the space to re-sign their key guys, continue the draft pipeline, and still sign 1 or more big FA contracts.  We're 3rd or 4th in cap space for next year.  If we sign Kirk for 25, we bump down to 13th in cap space.  As time goes on, that 25mil will reduce in terms of cap percentage and we'll benefit from the cap going up.  Unlike years past, I don't see a slew of massive holes that we need to address through FA - assuming we re-sign some of our own (Brown is the prime example).  

 

Now don't get me wrong, this situation is far from ideal.  I'd much rather pay Kirk (far) less than 25 per.  Looking at the roster, the cap, and the draft, though, the math (as far as I can see) doesn't add up to an either/or in terms of signing Kirk and fielding a good team around him.   

[Riggo'sRangers]

I hope Kirk can start seeing things like this. It happens to ALL QB's, not just Kirk, but if we read these routes right, easy pickings.  For ones wondering why Doctson not catching balls, well he's not GETTING any, even when open.  It's all good-they (he & Kirk) just have to become comfortable with one another I suppose.  Our passes seem so predetermined ragardless of the receiver.  The ball will be thrown where the play is designed.  It's a shame that we can't be more improvisational, but that may lead to errors. Anyway, a way to get better.  Hail

 

https://twitter.com/MarkBullockNFL/status/910250580207169537

 

[SWFLSkins]

On 9/18/2017 at 12:56 PM, Stadium-Armory said:

In case anyone missed it, Kirk led a game winning drive late in the 4th quarter, capped off by a TD throw that ended up being the game winner. 

Yeah I really didn't watch the end of the game after sitting through the first three quarters.....       = : -{/

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Riggo'sRangers said:

I hope Kirk can start seeing things like this. It happens to ALL QB's, not just Kirk, but if we read these routes right, easy pickings.  For ones wondering why Doctson not catching balls, well he's not GETTING any, even when open.  It's all good-they (he & Kirk) just have to become comfortable with one another I suppose.  Our passes seem so predetermined ragardless of the receiver.  The ball will be thrown where the play is designed.  It's a shame that we can't be more improvisational, but that may lead to errors. Anyway, a way to get better.  Hail

 

https://twitter.com/MarkBullockNFL/status/910250580207169537

 

 

I'm not worried about Kirk but that was good to see from Doctson. Cooley did limited film review today but he noticed on one of Kelley's runs that Doctson made a beast of a block.  We got talk radio harping about Doctson being a bust and the team should move on -- I'm not on that page, I think if we get Doctson in flow he can make a big impact.  

[SWFLSkins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'm not worried about Kirk but that was good to see from Doctson. Cooley did limited film review today but he noticed on one of Kelley's runs that Doctson made a beast of a block.  We got talk radio harping about Doctson being a bust and the team should move on -- I'm not on that page, I think if we get Doctson in flow he can make a big impact.  

 

Very disappointed he hasn't made an impact this year again, but to give up on a first rounder that from all appearances will be a stud is just fan unrest and bluster IMO. No way should  they "move ON" hahha. Now if he doesn't want to be here, now that is different... 

[Riggo'sRangers]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'm not worried about Kirk but that was good to see from Doctson. Cooley did limited film review today but noticed on one of Kelley's runs Doctson made a beast of a block.  We got talk radio harping about Doctson being a bust and the team should move on -- I'm not on that page, I think if we get Doctson in flow he can make a big impact.  

If he can block well he will see the field.  I think it's a comfort level thing as much as anything.  JDoc has missed an insane amount of time and is having to learn on the fly.  Brick by brick.  I'm on the same page as you regarding Doctson.  We will see, but he was/is very talented.  Let's get him used to being on the field & go from there. Hail

Just now, SWFLSkins said:

 

Very disappointed he hasn't made an impact this year again, but to give up on a first rounder that from all appearances will be a stud is just fan unrest and bluster IMO. No way should  they "move ON" hahha. Now if he doesn't want to be here, now that is different... 

Your avatar still creeps me out...just sayin'....

[SWFLSkins]

Well if they get to 3-1 or 2-2 and show some momo I'll go back to Gibbs. hahha

[Riggo'sRangers]

1 minute ago, SWFLSkins said:

Well if they get to 3-1 or 2-2 and show some momo I'll go back to Gibbs. hahha

It's actually really funny.  A dark memory to be remembered and never forgotten. 

[SWFLSkins]

1 minute ago, Riggo'sRangers said:

It's actually really funny.  A dark memory to be remembered and never forgotten. 

 

Oh I could easily forget it, hahhaa, just like Norv, Spurrier and Zorn,,,, I think the team (was)is somehow channeling Vinny this offseason. hahhaa

[Riggo'sRangers]

1 minute ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

Oh I could easily forget it, hahhaa, just like Norv, Spurrier and Zorn,,,, I think the team is somehow channeling Vinny this offseason. hahhaa

[NoCalMike]

Doctson is too talented to not make an impact if healthy.  Let's not forget he is out there taking snaps when he he didn't do any thing his rookie season on top of barely practicing with the team this offseason either.  He is essentially learning the NFL in-game, in real time.

 

If Doctson ends up being a bust, it won't be due to mis-judging his talent level, it will be due to him not being healthy enough to be able to put in the proper amount of time it takes to fine tune his raw skills and become an NFL WR. 

 

I am not ready to give up on him yet, and certainly not under the notion that he doesn't have the talent.  

 

 

[HOF44]

34 minutes ago, Riggo'sRangers said:

I hope Kirk can start seeing things like this. It happens to ALL QB's, not just Kirk, but if we read these routes right, easy pickings.  For ones wondering why Doctson not catching balls, well he's not GETTING any, even when open.  It's all good-they (he & Kirk) just have to become comfortable with one another I suppose.  Our passes seem so predetermined ragardless of the receiver.  The ball will be thrown where the play is designed.  It's a shame that we can't be more improvisational, but that may lead to errors. Anyway, a way to get better.  Hail

 

https://twitter.com/MarkBullockNFL/status/910250580207169537

 

Just watching that video I think one of the two deep receivers ran the wrong route.  The spacing looks wrong.  To close together on the break.  Also no route to the right at all.  It's hard to say for sure without assignments we just don't know. 

[TheShredder]

3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Wish we had re-signed Kirk at a better rate and that we had retained either Garçon or Jackson, but there are things to be happy/optimistic about.  The Kirk contract has, unfortunately, become a wrench in the psychological workings of the fan base... and it's hard to forgive the FO for that.  

I think everyone would agree they screwed the pooch on not extending Cousins.  

 

But there's good argument about the price tag for Garçon at this stage. Garçon was my one Must Sign, but he's getting paid properly and I'm happy for him...big time football player.  DJax was easy to let walk at that cost. TBay overpaid for the 6-7 good games he'll play for them each year. There's more upside to younger talent then the 50% of the games that DJax shows up for. It's not a contract year for DJax, then he's not ballin. Baker was ok. Just because he was the best DL on a bad defense doesn't guarantee he's worth the expense. If you watch McGee and McClain and Allen, this combo is better all around. 

 

Only viewing the FO making a mistake with Cousins.  Granted it's a big one. My view is off the grid, where I expect him to slowly get his game together over the next few weeks. After the Bye week he'll be settled (if history repeats).  This is where I'd seek a trade and unload him now! 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

36 minutes ago, HOF44 said:

Just watching that video I think one of the two deep receivers ran the wrong route.  The spacing looks wrong.  To close together on the break.  Also no route to the right at all.  It's hard to say for sure without assignments we just don't know. 

 

Let's be serious though, if this were 3-4 years ago and #10 behind center, we would be killing him for being stupid, scared in the pocket and not able to read a defense. 

 

Kirk has to see that and make those throws. he did this a ton last season too. 

[TheShredder]

Definitely viewing the start of the season as an example of why you could use McCoy in these games and still win.  Hmmmm...

1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Let's be serious though, if this were 3-4 years ago and #10 behind center, we would be killing him for being stupid, scared in the pocket and not able to read a defense. 

 

Kirk has to see that and make those throws. he did this a ton last season too. 

Cousins knows he doesn't get comfortable for a month...he has said it out loud and Gruden too. They're not trying to survive until Cousins gets locked in...look back...it happened the first two years he's been starting and now a 3rd. If there's any truth in history that would lend you that each year he's going to play like crap for a month.  Hopefully you get a win or two but that's who he is. 

1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Let's be serious though, if this were 3-4 years ago and #10 behind center, we would be killing him for being stupid, scared in the pocket and not able to read a defense. 

 

Kirk has to see that and make those throws. he did this a ton last season too. 

Cousins knows he doesn't get comfortable for a month...he has said it out loud and Gruden too. They're not trying to survive until Cousins gets locked in...look back...it happened the first two years he's been starting and now a 3rd. If there's any truth in history that would lend you that each year he's going to play like crap for a month.  Hopefully you get a win or two but that's who he is. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

4 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Cousins knows he doesn't get comfortable for a month...he has said it out loud and Gruden too. They're not trying to survive until Cousins gets locked in...look back...it happened the first two years he's been starting and now a 3rd. If there's any truth in history that would lend you that each year he's going to play like crap for a month.  Hopefully you get a win or two but that's who he is. 

 

That's not really acceptable. They both need to be put on notice if they are here next offseason to get their asses in gear and avoid this slow start. Have him play the entire preseason, I don't care. Get him ready. 

6 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Definitely viewing the start of the season as an example of why you could use McCoy in these games and still win.  Hmmmm...

 

Colt McCoy is not an option at QB. He has never been nor should he ever be. If McCoy is playing QB the season is basically sunk and we are rebuilding and hoping for a high draft pick by playing him