Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[Redd]

I mean if we win with that ugly passing game I'm fine with it.  He did throw that td to help put the Rams away.  

 

Now how I feel about 24+ a year for that I'm gonna go with no.  That's 14-18 million a year tops.  You want max money gotta make max money plays consistently and especiallyin the Redzone imo.

 

This isn't me hating on Kirk.  Hell I like the fact he thinks he's worth that much but the only way it will look like he earns his paychecks is to win games with his arm and decision making.

 

You can pay a rookie 25+ easy over 4 years to lose and it's no big deal.  24+ a year is show me win now money.   Kirk won yesterday.   Good, now keep winning and critics and fans will stop complaining. 

[Llevron]

54 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I'm not gonna marry a girl just because I'm not attractive and there's not many other options out there for a guy like me and because she lets me score on occasion after begging and pleading for 57 minutes. If anything I'll date her and see where it takes us without commiting to marriage. Either we decide to tie the knot or I find someone else I'm more enamored with.

 

I feel you! Problem with this scenario though is that you (we) have our own issues to work on and we cannot be trusted to work on them ourselves lol. 

[PartyPosse]

19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That all depends on the criteria for upper level QB.  The expectations of most of the Anti-Kirk crowd are lofty to say the least.  I hear the narrative that top quarterbacks must carry their team on their back and will them to victory.  Did Aaron Rodgers carry his team on his back and will them to victory last night?  He's pretty much god's gift to the QB position and his team got their asses whipped. Has Drew Brees carried his team on his back and willed them to victory the past two weeks, or even seasons?  No, they can't/don't run the ball and their defense is pathetic.  I hear stuff on this very site about how folks are concerned about Dak Prescott and how he looks so much better than Kirk, did you see his generic ass when they cannot run the ball?  Russell Wilson is a "winner" and a playmaker, his team got 4 field goals yesterday. 

 

 

 

My own personal criteria is someone that can win a game for their team that they have no business of winning. It's extremely lofty, no doubt, but if a QB wants to be paid the best at his position then he better show he's capable. I don't care about future contracts and what they're worth in 4 years, he is asking to be paid like he's in that group of QBs. He's simply not. He's a good QB. Nothing to be ashamed of but his play has not warranted the amount of headaches his contract stalemate have forced us to endure. Aaron Rodgers, he's a bad example because he's truly elite and no way anyone is going to compare the two. But since we're using him, last year he literally led the team on a 6 game winning streak and 2 playoff victory all on his own. He had a 15/0 TD/INT ratio in those last 6 regular season games (and that's NOT including the last regular season loss to Washington where he had a 3/0 TD/INT ratio). Brees has had 11 straight 4,000+ yard seasons and 9 straight 32+ TD seasons. And as good as Brees is, he's been essentially on one year deals forever and his lofty contract has severely hamstrung the saints. That's why the ultimately lost guys like Sproles and Graham. 

 

Prescott isn't anything special in my mind, but he's ideal for a power running team like Dallas should be with the OL and Eliot. 

16 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I feel you! Problem with this scenario though is that you (we) have our own issues to work on and we cannot be trusted to work on them ourselves lol. 

It's like all your friends tell you you can do better and she's probably cheating on you, but you don't want to end it and move on because it's easier this way to just stay in denial and deal with the ups and downs of disfunction because you'll keep asking yourself, "what if she's the one?" 

16 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I feel you! Problem with this scenario though is that you (we) have our own issues to work on and we cannot be trusted to work on them ourselves lol. 

It's like all your friends tell you you can do better and she's probably cheating on you, but you don't want to end it and move on because it's easier this way to just stay in denial and deal with the ups and downs of disfunction because you'll keep asking yourself, "what if she's the one?" 

16 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I feel you! Problem with this scenario though is that you (we) have our own issues to work on and we cannot be trusted to work on them ourselves lol. 

It's like all your friends tell you you can do better and she's probably cheating on you, but you don't want to end it and move on because it's easier this way to just stay in denial and deal with the ups and downs of disfunction because you'll keep asking yourself, "what if she's the one?" 

[Llevron]

58 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

You and I are on the exact same page, trust me.  It's like nails on a chalkboard when people bring that up despite him actually being one of the best in the league last year for 4QC (4th) and GWD (6th).  He has a lot to improve on, no doubt, but don't knock him where he does well.  That just shows malice and ignorance.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/passing.htm (Last two columns)

 

True. This really cannot be argued. 

[Skinsinparadise]

58 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

I truly feel only Redskins fans perceive Kirk to be an upper level QB. Most non-skins fans I talk to don't consider him to be an upper echelon QB. 

 

As for fans, I don't jump on enough other team fan blogs to know definitively.  Among the fans I know, they think highly of Kirk with the exception of one Dolphin fan friend who thinks Tannehill is as good as Kirk.  My in-laws are mostly Giant fans and they have told me they'd love it if we got rid of Kirk.   As for NFL pundits types, the large majority see him from my observation as an upper echelon QB.  The rap seems if anything is what's up with Washington why aren't they locking this guy in?  With some exceptions among them Polian.   The big national critics of Kirk seem to be Bayless (who thinks Kirk is good but a tease in big spots) and Kellerman.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000820336/article/washington-redskins-now-auditioning-for-kirk-cousins

On Monday, I asked personnel executives from five teams that played the Redskins last season where they'd rank Cousins among NFL quarterbacks. All five had him as a top-15 QB; three put him in or on the border of the top 10. That's a small sample, but it shows how far Cousins, who turns 29 in August, has come in some scouts' minds. This is not some low-ceiling, system guy everyone thinks will fall on his face eventually. Even the Redskins, for all the trepidation they've shown, upped their offer from around $20 million a year to one of the NFL's highest averages on a multiyear deal when they made their best offer in early May (though how good that deal really was depends on whom you ask).

 

As one high-ranking NFC executive who said Cousins belongs in the top 10 put it: "He's really accurate, has really good timing, touch. He's not a great athlete. He's not the biggest. [Former Redskins coach Mike Shanahan] thought he was Drew Brees. Whether he is or not, I don't know -- but similar attributes. Not the best arm, obviously not as big as you want, but really good rhythm, touch, timing within their offense. Has made some bonehead mistakes. Didn't make as many last year. But he's a good point guard, knows where to go with it.

[PartyPosse]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for fans, I don't jump on enough other team fan blogs to know definitively.  Among the fans I know, they think highly of Kirk with the exception of one Dolphin fan friend who think Tannehill is as good as Kirk.  My in-laws are mostly Giant fans and they have told me they'd love it if we got rid of Kirk.   As for NFL pundits types, the large majority see him from my observation as an upper echelon QB.  The rap seems if anything is what's up with Washington why aren't they locking this guy in?  With some exceptions among them Polian.   The big national critics of Kirk seem to be Bayless (who thinks Kirk is good but a tease in big spots) and Kellerman.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000820336/article/washington-redskins-now-auditioning-for-kirk-cousins

On Monday, I asked personnel executives from five teams that played the Redskins last season where they'd rank Cousins among NFL quarterbacks. All five had him as a top-15 QB; three put him in or on the border of the top 10. That's a small sample, but it shows how far Cousins, who turns 29 in August, has come in some scouts' minds. This is not some low-ceiling, system guy everyone thinks will fall on his face eventually. Even the Redskins, for all the trepidation they've shown, upped their offer from around $20 million a year to one of the NFL's highest averages on a multiyear deal when they made their best offer in early May (though how good that deal really was depends on whom you ask).

 

As one high-ranking NFC executive who said Cousins belongs in the top 10 put it: "He's really accurate, has really good timing, touch. He's not a great athlete. He's not the biggest. [Former Redskins coach Mike Shanahan] thought he was Drew Brees. Whether he is or not, I don't know -- but similar attributes. Not the best arm, obviously not as big as you want, but really good rhythm, touch, timing within their offense. Has made some bonehead mistakes. Didn't make as many last year. But he's a good point guard, knows where to go with it.

Perhaps I should clarify what i mean by upper echelon and maybe i got it wrong. I meant a top 5-7 QB, not in the top half of starters. I 100% think he's top 15. I think just outside 10 at maybe 11 or 12. I also don't necessarily think he's going to improve on that. Again, not bad at all for a 4th round pick who struggled in his sporadic opportunities in his first 3 years. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

39 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

Clearly you've never heard of Matt Schaub or Jon Kitna

 

Sure, he could go that way.  Though I think the Kitna comp is unfair, Kirk's TD/INT ration these past two years isn't as bad as Kitna's was.

 

 

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Sure, he could go that way.  Though I think the Kitna comp is unfair, Kirk's TD/INT ration these past two years isn't as bad as Kitna's was.

 

 

True enough. I was just using him as an example that back to back 4,000 yard passing seasons don't necessarily translate into quality QB play. 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Edit

 

I truly feel only Redskins fans perceive Kirk to be an upper level QB. Most non-skins fans I talk to don't consider him to be an upper echelon QB. 

 

Edit

 

I can't obviously speak to your experience with others, but mine has been the exact opposite. It's 10-1 people saying they have no idea why the redskins didn't pay him. That Kirk is a really good QB. Elite? No. But those are very rare despite what some may seem to believe. And I am talking very knowledgeable football people, not just casual fans.

 

Not saying you have not had the opposite, just saying what my experience has been. I will just add that my job takes me all over the country. I do get to talk to people all over. So it's not just other Redskins fans.

[elkabong82]

These first 2 games are mirroring last season's slow start for Kirk as well. 1st game not good, 2nd game mediocre but looked better than 1st. Hopefully it means he'll be in full swing in the next couple games. 

 

Kirk needs to find a way to not start cold. He looks awful early on and frankly it's inexcusable to be that rusty and off by the start of the season when you've had a full offseason and preseason to get ready.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just now, PartyPosse said:

True enough. I was just using him as an example that back to back 4,000 yard passing seasons don't necessarily translate into quality QB play. 

 

You're correct.  

 

I get the hesitation with Cousins for sure.  The slow start each year is annoying.  He throws some boneheaded picks.  

 

As I've said multiple times already - I just don't trust the FO to figure out the alternative. If we had an awesome front office, I'd be more behind finding an alternative.  

[Fat Stupid Loser]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

I feel the absolute best case scenario is the TT. Let him and all of us find out what his market value really is because I just don't see it. Right now we're wasting the prime years of guys like Trent and Josh Norman while we're waiting to see who Kirk is. A new QB/Draft pick isn't ideal but I also think we can find out real quick from one of the blue-chip prospects whether or not there is something there. You can see it with guys like Wentz and Winston as much as you can with Lynch. What we're doing is no different except getting an extra win or two. 

 

Actually I have no problem drafting the next rookie superstar next year. As long as one falls to us and we give nothing up to go get them. Can't have too many good QBs on the team. Let him sit for 3 years behind Kirk and learn like it used to be done. Like they did in GB.  I'm not in favor of letting Kirk get away so we can draft the next Matt Leinart, or pick your favorite "all the tools, top college QB prospect" flop. A tiny percentage have any real success in the league. Maybe because they make them starters right away because they didn't want to pay the starter they had. Or because their last 3 QB picks bombed out and they have no choice. I don't want to be that team again. We have a good QB.

[OVCChairman]

14 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Actually I have no problem drafting the next rookie superstar next year. As long as one falls to us and we give nothing up to go get them. Can't have too many good QBs on the team. Let him sit for 3 years behind Kirk and learn like it used to be done. Like they did in GB.  I'm not in favor of letting Kirk get away so we can draft the next Matt Leinart, or pick your favorite "all the tools, top college QB prospect" flop. A tiny percentage have any real success in the league. Maybe because they make them starters right away because they didn't want to pay the starter they had. Or because their last 3 QB picks bombed out and they have no choice. I don't want to be that team again. We have a good QB.

Do you think Kirk signs a 3 year deal after this season? 

[PartyPosse]

19 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Actually I have no problem drafting the next rookie superstar next year. As long as one falls to us and we give nothing up to go get them. Can't have too many good QBs on the team. Let him sit for 3 years behind Kirk and learn like it used to be done. Like they did in GB.  I'm not in favor of letting Kirk get away so we can draft the next Matt Leinart, or pick your favorite "all the tools, top college QB prospect" flop. A tiny percentage have any real success in the league. Maybe because they make them starters right away because they didn't want to pay the starter they had. Or because their last 3 QB picks bombed out and they have no choice. I don't want to be that team again. We have a good QB.

True enough. I get that but honestly there is no way Kirk would even want to stay if we declare we are drafting a QB high and TBH I wouldn't want him sitting on the bench for 3 years because then we'll be in the exact same situation as Kirk - a guy whose rookie contract is coming up and we have to decide if he's worth a big contract on. 

28 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

You're correct.  

 

I get the hesitation with Cousins for sure.  The slow start each year is annoying.  He throws some boneheaded picks.  

 

As I've said multiple times already - I just don't trust the FO to figure out the alternative. If we had an awesome front office, I'd be more behind finding an alternative.  

See, I loved the game plan yesterday and thought that was the plan all along. Build up an OL that theoretically should excel in run blocking and use a strong power run scheme to wear down defenses. I hate having a QB that needs to throw 50 times a game as we become reliant on one person. Unless that person is a surefire HoF (for the most part) then it never works. Look at Carolina and Cam. They're too reliant on him and teams clamped down to contain him. Now their offense is in shambles. Same with Seattle. Indy. It doesn't work relying on a heavily paid QB unless they're someone special. The smart thing is building a team around that position. Atlanta did it with the inclusions of Freeman and Coleman and look how Ryan has looked. 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

6 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Do you think Kirk signs a 3 year deal after this season? 

Two reasons he wouldn't.  BA won't offer what most would consider (you know, the people who know this stuff as opposed to us) a fair market contract for a top 10-15 QB ( I put him 8-12, but I'm biased) or if BA has burned the bridge and Kirk is just playing the good soldier to get through the year.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Atlanta did it with the inclusions of Freeman and Coleman and look how Ryan has looked. 

Yeah, the same Matt Ryan who's the next guest on "Who wants to be the highest paid NFL player?".

 

If the Falcons draft well and manage their roster appropriately, they should be able to continue succeeding even with that contract.

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Two reasons he wouldn't.  BA won't offer what most would consider (you know, the people who know this stuff as opposed to us) a fair market contract for a top 10-15 QB ( I put him 8-12, but I'm biased) or if BA has burned the bridge and Kirk is just playing the good soldier to get through the year.

your post said (paraphrasing) Draft the future and let him play behind Kirk for 3 years, thought you were insinuating that we'd be able to re-sign him after the season. 

[Skinsinparadise]

47 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Perhaps I should clarify what i mean by upper echelon and maybe i got it wrong. I meant a top 5-7 QB, not in the top half of starters. I 100% think he's top 15. I think just outside 10 at maybe 11 or 12. I also don't necessarily think he's going to improve on that. Again, not bad at all for a 4th round pick who struggled in his sporadic opportunities in his first 3 years. 

 

OK so then I presume the easiest way to boil down your point is this?

 

You can't afford to pay a guy like Kirk 24-25 million a year (which was the going rate last year).  If you have a JAG at QB so be it just give that JAG weapons with that extra money through shrewd FA signings.  Maybe it works maybe it doesn't but keep playing the draft and eventually you will strike gold if you have patience? 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

your post said (paraphrasing) Draft the future and let him play behind Kirk for 3 years, thought you were insinuating that we'd be able to re-sign him after the season. 

No reason we can't. No reason we shouldn't. I listed the two reasons that might prevent it.

[OVCChairman]

I think Kirk is a reason we can't... 

[PartyPosse]

24 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Yeah, the same Matt Ryan who's the next guest on "Who wants to be the highest paid NFL player?".

 

If the Falcons draft well and manage their roster appropriately, they should be able to continue succeeding even with that contract.

 

Atl has a window of maybe 2 more years because they're already in series cap trouble. Next year they're already at 160 million to just 38 players. Coleman is gonna need a new contract, they'll just have really 2 WR under contract, same with Beasley. 

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK so then I presume the easiest way to boil down your point is this?

 

You can't afford to pay a guy like Kirk 24-25 million a year (which was the going rate last year).  If you have a JAG at QB so be it just give that JAG weapons with that extra money through shrewd FA signings.  Maybe it works maybe it doesn't but keep playing the draft and eventually you will strike gold if you have patience? 

I think if you're gonna sever ties with Kirk, this draft is your best opportunity to do it. I understand most people like Kirk more because they have no faith that the FO will find a capable replacement and not because they're in love with Kirk's game. I do think Kirk is better than JAG but he's closer to JAG than elite. I think we're all much happier with the team's offensive performance in week 2 than week 1. We can all agree their last drive looked great. However, in regards to the other 58 minutes, do you think we need a 25 million dollar QB to run that offense? Granted all games aren't gonna be like that and there are gonna be games where we're going to have to air it out, but woul you be happy with the style of offense we ran out there yesterday? If the answer is yes then we don't necessarily need a QB earning top 5 money. 

 

I do think weapons make a QB look better. Kirk isn't all that accurate and last year Desean, Garcon and Crowder helped masked that. We're not getting that illusion this year. I think AJ Green makes Dalton look better, Fitz for Carson etc. That accuracy issue is also why we struggle in RZ. Not enough room for error. Receivers and TE have more room in the middle of the field to help Kirk out. In the RZ the margin for error is much smaller. Receivers can't bail out Kirk as much an he doesn't have enough confidence in himself or his receivers to make a higher-risk through - especially when Reed is out. That's why we're so conservative in that part of the field. 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

8 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

I think Kirk is a reason we can't... 

Because he doesn't want to be here?

[OVCChairman]

Just now, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Because he doesn't want to be here?

Hard to see any evidence that would lead me to believe he DOES want to be here, other then some coach speak in a few pressers... 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

Just now, OVCChairman said:

Hard to see any evidence that would lead me to believe he DOES want to be here, other then some coach speak in a few pressers... 

Its certainly very possible. The FO has told him for about 3 years now that they don't believe in him, so wouldn't surprise me.

[OVCChairman]

Me either, unfortunately.