Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I think the following are either untrue, or are blown out of proportion on the board:

He's not clutch 

He can't carry the team

His contract will harm the team

He's an average QB

He sucks in the RZ

He plays poorly when pressured

He's not a leader

I do think some of those are true and in regards to some he's actually regressed over time. For example the RZ issue. As nice as the throw to Grant was, it also magnifies an issue with Kirk that I feel doesn't get touched on enough. If you look at all his throws in the RZ, especially in the end zone, they are ALWAYS outside the hash marks. He was afraid all last season to throw in the middle of the field either. Everything is a fade or short quick passes to RB. In 2015 he was confident throwing to Reed in that area but has been absolutely terrified to do it since. I feel like it's been that way ever since the INT against Dallas. If hes afraid of making a mistake then I don't want to pay a QB 28 million if he doesn't have the confidence. Obviously it's a huge deal as it is a clear sign as to why the RZ struggles exist. Blame playcalling all you want but it's easy to defend when you don't have to worry about a good chunk of the field. Kirk does have major accuracy issues and has a hard time with touch passes. He's got great arm strength and anticipation but as the field gets smaller so does his ability to complete passes. Do you think they keep calling fades because it's fun? No, it's a low-risk option that may work.

[Stadium-Armory]

In case anyone missed it, Kirk led a game winning drive late in the 4th quarter, capped off by a TD throw that ended up being the game winner. 

[DM72]

13 minutes ago, Stadium-Armory said:

In case anyone missed it, Kirk led a game winning drive late in the 4th quarter, capped off by a TD throw that ended up being the game winner. 

 

Kirk still didn't look particularly good. But if Kirk really want impress Skins fans, do it next week against the Raiders on Sunday night. He do that, everyone will forget week one.

[Skinsinparadise]

Good article today about the randomness and luck about finding a good QB.   Right now the two top QBs in the draft might not even come out:  Darnold and Rosen.  But if they do right now I think they are going #1 and #2.  

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx170918/nfl-quality-play-worse-2017-colin-kaepernick-make-better

 

The quarterback problem

The quote you'll hear if you watch the NFL closely for more than a week or two is that there simply aren't 32 starting quarterbacks to go around to play for 32 teams at any one time. It has always been a frustratingly naive quote, and there are a few reasons why it's an inaccurate cliche. For one, by definition, you can't have 32 above-average starting quarterbacks in a league with 32 starting quarterbacks. More importantly, the league doesn't operate in a way to get the best passers opportunities:

 

NFL teams aren't very good at scouting and sifting through quarterbacks. The Cowboys-Broncos game we saw on Sunday is a great reminder of how organizations that spend millions of dollars on both identifying and acquiring quarterback talent are led more by luck and circumstance than anything else. The Cowboys, who had former undrafted free agent Tony Romo as their starter for a decade, tried to trade up and grab Paxton Lynch in the first round of the 2016 draft. They were beaten to the punch by the Broncos for Lynch, with the Raiders subsequently pipping Jerry Jones & Co. to fallback plan Connor Cook. The Cowboys had to settle for Dak Prescott, who looks like every bit of a franchise quarterback, even if he struggled against the league's best pass defense in Week 2.

 

Meanwhile, the Broncos haven't gotten much out of Lynch. Their third-stringer is Brock Osweiler, whom Denver attempted to re-sign after the 2015 season with a reported three year, $45 million offer, only for Osweiler to turn them down and sign with the Texans for an ill-fated campaign. The Broncos then traded up to grab Lynch, who has been subpar and lost consecutive training camp battles to former seventh-round pick Trevor Siemian, who has been on the roster all along and certainly appears to be the best quarterback of the three.

Both Prescott and Siemian would have lingered on the bench if it weren't for circumstances unexpectedly breaking their way. Prescott might be a backup stuck behind a franchise quarterback in a different city if the Cowboys had been able to nab Cook, and he only got his chance because Romo (and Kellen Moore) suffered an injury during the preseason. Had the Broncos re-signed Osweiler, he might have kept up his previous level of competence and Denver might have cut Siemian in favor of a veteran backup.

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

3 hours ago, armstrong001 said:

If it's 1991, Steelers fans are wondering if Bubby Brister (29 years old, 8-6, 9-7 the previous two years) is the answer.  If it's 1993, Rams fans are wondering if Jim Everett (30 years old, a couple of bad years prior but had 10-6 and 11-5 years back to back) can win it all for them. The bears are hoping Jim Harbaugh (30 years old, 10-4 and 11-5 seasons prior) can get them a ring.

 

I want Cousins to succeed, but most 20's/early 30's struggling qbs dont become HOF guys.

 

I mean, if you think Cousins has struggled these past two years...  

[PartyPosse]

I'm not gonna marry a girl just because I'm not attractive and there's not many other options out there for a guy like me and because she lets me score on occasion after begging and pleading for 57 minutes. If anything I'll date her and see where it takes us without commiting to marriage. Either we decide to tie the knot or I find someone else I'm more enamored with.

[RandyHolt]

I found it telling that Jay removed the deep ball yesterday. Especially since you'd think they were very ripe for PA.

[PartyPosse]

Seriously, I need a girlfriend.

[Spaceman Spiff]

4 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I'm not gonna marry a girl just because I'm not attractive and there's not many other options out there for a guy like me and because she lets me score on occasion after begging and pleading for 57 minutes. If anything I'll date her and see where it takes us without commiting to marriage. Either we decide to tie the knot or I find someone else I'm more enamored with.

 

Here we are talking about quarterbacks and you got all weird and personal.  What's your deal? 

[NewCliche21]

30 minutes ago, Stadium-Armory said:

In case anyone missed it, Kirk led a game winning drive late in the 4th quarter, capped off by a TD throw that ended up being the game winner. 

 

Which is exactly why I was so pissed with the botched fumble call against Philly.  This guy can do game-winning drives.

 

Of course, you can only have a GWD if you're losing at that point, and I'd rather be up by two scores and not need any GWD.  That would require, from the quarterback side, a full game of playing well.

What's better, a doctor saving someone's life in the ER or a doctor who prevents the heart attack in the first place?

7 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I'm not gonna marry a girl just because I'm not attractive and there's not many other options out there for a guy like me and because she lets me score on occasion after begging and pleading for 57 minutes. If anything I'll date her and see where it takes us without commiting to marriage. Either we decide to tie the knot or I find someone else I'm more enamored with.

 

Well that got super awkward super quickly.

 

EDIT:  Double quoted for some reason

[Fat Stupid Loser]

40 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

That was THEIR market value. We have no idea how other teams/GMs perceive Kirk. His market value this year was 24 million because that's what we had to pay. Next year if we do hit slap him with any kind of tag, we'll have no idea what his market value is, especially if he continues to have a mediocre season.

Unless Kirk seriously implodes all on his own, despite solid team efforts, the market is set for average to above average QBs in the league. And its somewhere in the 24-28 M a year range. Everyone in the average to above average range will get that or more when its their turn.  Stafford doesn't play in a bubble. He is an average to above average QB who has never won anything. Sound like someone we know? The market is set. We don't meet it, someone will as quick as they can and we start over. I think that is a big mistake, setting us back to where we've been indefinitely. You don't, I guess.  Time will tell.

[Stadium-Armory]

1 minute ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Which is exactly why I was so pissed with the botched fumble call against Philly.  This guy can do game-winning drives.

 

Of course, you can only have a GWD if you're losing at that point, and I'd rather be up by two scores and not need any GWD.  That would require, from the quarterback side, a full game of playing well.

What's better, a doctor saving someone's life in the ER or a doctor who prevents the heart attack in the first place?

 

Sure, we want it all. I get it.  He just takes flack for not being clutch in the 4th quarter and I think yesterday was a data point for us to remember.

[NewCliche21]

1 minute ago, Stadium-Armory said:

 

Sure, we want it all. I get it.  He just takes flack for not being clutch in the 4th quarter and I think yesterday was a data point for us to remember.

 

You and I are on the exact same page, trust me.  It's like nails on a chalkboard when people bring that up despite him actually being one of the best in the league last year for 4QC (4th) and GWD (6th).  He has a lot to improve on, no doubt, but don't knock him where he does well.  That just shows malice and ignorance.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/passing.htm (Last two columns)

[armstrong001]

14 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I mean, if you think Cousins has struggled these past two years...  

I mean, if you think Cousins hasn't struggled in these past two weeks... and down the stretch last year...

 

Cousins has had two great years statistically.  My response was to someone comparing that 49ers fans and Broncos fans on how they viewed HOF qbs midway in their careers (both had 8 years in the league in the years in question) with Redskins fans and how they view Cousins.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Kirk was kind of butt until that last drive. He gave me no confidence we would score and win. Great drive and team win yesterday, across the country, with their backs against the wall. Most people thought they would lose.

 

That loss to philly was full of fluky crap, weird call at the end, crowder fumbling, our line looking like crap.

 

This team could give Oakland a run for their money next week. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just now, armstrong001 said:

I mean, if you think Cousins hasn't struggled in these past two weeks... and down the stretch last year...

 

Cousins has had two great years statistically.  My response was to someone comparing that 49ers fans and Broncos fans on how they viewed HOF qbs midway in their careers (both had 8 years in the league in the years in question) with Redskins fans and how they view Cousins.

 

 

I think Cousins is a slow starter.  If you look for trends, you'll see that to be true.  

 

As far as down the stretch last year, I think you simply saw a QB (and offense) who was tired of having to bail out a ****ty defense all year.  

 

Elway and Young weren't surefire HOF guys 8 years in.  

[PartyPosse]

12 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Unless Kirk seriously implodes all on his own, despite solid team efforts, the market is set for average to above average QBs in the league. And its somewhere in the 24-28 M a year range. Everyone in the average to above average range will get that or more when its their turn.  Stafford doesn't play in a bubble. He is an average to above average QB who has never won anything. Sound like someone we know? The market is set. We don't meet it, someone will as quick as they can and we start over. I think that is a big mistake, setting us back to where we've been indefinitely. You don't, I guess.  Time will tell.

Stafford is far better than people give him credit for and is actually the best QB in football in the clutch (I know i was surprised by this too - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/matthew-stafford-is-the-league-e2-80-99s-best-quarterback-in-the-clutch/ar-AArZ6Za ) .He also had a 41 TD/5000 yard season at the age of 23 for those into stats and has for the most part been a consistent QB year in year out despite having no decent surrounding cast aside from CJ (We've already had this debate so I won't get into it again). Stafford has also been doing it for 8 years or so and somehow he's STILL the same age as Kirk. Do his postseason stats leave a lot to be desired, absolutely, but i feel 100% more confident with him behind center than I do Kirk. 

 

I truly feel only Redskins fans perceive Kirk to be an upper level QB. Most non-skins fans I talk to don't consider him to be an upper echelon QB. 

 

I feel the absolute best case scenario is the TT. Let him and all of us find out what his market value really is because I just don't see it. Right now we're wasting the prime years of guys like Trent and Josh Norman while we're waiting to see who Kirk is. A new QB/Draft pick isn't ideal but I also think we can find out real quick from one of the blue-chip prospects whether or not there is something there. You can see it with guys like Wentz and Winston as much as you can with Lynch. What we're doing is no different except getting an extra win or two. 

24 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Here we are talking about quarterbacks and you got all weird and personal.  What's your deal? 

I love my team that much.

[Est.1974]

Played better, happy to take a win irrespective of his performance to be honest. He played well enough, just. Closed the game out but I think he was being closely managed somewhat more by Gruden, evident in the play calling.

 

The debate will simply run all year because it will be almost impossible for him to justify what the public perception is of what his demands are. He's going to look like a 5 year 120mil QB all year long (fine by me), just not a 5 year 150mil QB and that I'm afraid will be the killer issue come February/March IMO...

[armstrong001]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I think Cousins is a slow starter.  If you look for trends, you'll see that to be true.  

 

As far as down the stretch last year, I think you simply saw a QB (and offense) who was tired of having to bail out a ****ty defense all year.  

 

Elway and Young weren't surefire HOF guys 8 years in.  

I agree that he is a slow starter, and maybe his trajectory continues upwards and two years from now he's Superbowl MVP.  I'm just saying that there are a TON of qbs that were not surefire HOF guys 8 years in.  The vast majority of them stayed mediocre.  Jim Harbaugh had two of his best years at about the same time in his career as Cousins.  Incidentally, those were also his only two winning seasons for his whole career. Jim Everett had a similar career.  Two early great years, then mediocre.  There are a lot more Harbaughs and Everetts than there are Youngs and Elways.  Who knows which way Cousins will go?

[Mooka]

4 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Stafford is far better than people give him credit for and is actually the best QB in football in the clutch (I know i was surprised by this too - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/matthew-stafford-is-the-league-e2-80-99s-best-quarterback-in-the-clutch/ar-AArZ6Za ) .

 

I actually like Stafford but that is a super inflated statistic for the Lions. 

 

The Detroit Lions play the weirdest, ugliest WORST football for the majority of the game then turn on the hyperjets at the end of the halfs. Its actually works too, lulls good teams to sleep that can't keep up later in the game. Certainly worked against us. 

 

 

The Giants actually play in a slightly similar way so tonight should be a good matchup between the two teams. 

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

6 minutes ago, armstrong001 said:

I agree that he is a slow starter, and maybe his trajectory continues upwards and two years from now he's Superbowl MVP.  I'm just saying that there are a TON of qbs that were not surefire HOF guys 8 years in.  The vast majority of them stayed mediocre.  Jim Harbaugh had two of his best years at about the same time in his career as Cousins.  Incidentally, those were also his only two winning seasons for his whole career. Jim Everett had a similar career.  Two early great years, then mediocre.  There are a lot more Harbaughs and Everetts than there are Youngs and Elways.  Who knows which way Cousins will go?

 

You bring up some good points, but I don't think there's much mediocrity in back to back 4k passing seasons.  IIRC, Everett was hurt, too. 

 

I don't think Cousins is out of the woods just yet but as I said before I sure don't trust this front office to draft and develop a good QB.  They should do the Constanza and do the opposite of what they think they should do.  That's probably a worthy draft strategy for them moving forward.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

I truly feel only Redskins fans perceive Kirk to be an upper level QB. Most non-skins fans I talk to don't consider him to be an upper echelon QB. 

That all depends on the criteria for upper level QB.  The expectations of most of the Anti-Kirk crowd are lofty to say the least.  I hear the narrative that top quarterbacks must carry their team on their back and will them to victory.  Did Aaron Rodgers carry his team on his back and will them to victory last night?  He's pretty much god's gift to the QB position and his team got their asses whipped. Has Drew Brees carried his team on his back and willed them to victory the past two weeks, or even seasons?  No, they can't/don't run the ball and their defense is pathetic.  I hear stuff on this very site about how folks are concerned about Dak Prescott and how he looks so much better than Kirk, did you see his generic ass when they cannot run the ball?  Russell Wilson is a "winner" and a playmaker, his team got 4 field goals yesterday. 

 

 

 

[PartyPosse]

10 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

You bring up some good points, but I don't think there's much mediocrity in back to back 4k passing seasons.  IIRC, Everett was hurt, too. 

 

Clearly you've never heard of Matt Schaub or Jon Kitna

[armstrong001]

5 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

You bring up some good points, but I don't think there's much mediocrity in back to back 4k passing seasons.  IIRC, Everett was hurt, too. 

 

I don't think Cousins is out of the woods just yet but as I said before I sure don't trust this front office to draft and develop a good QB.  They should do the Constanza and do the opposite of what they think they should do.  That's probably a worthy draft strategy for them moving forward.

Fair enough.  For the record, I hope Cousins snaps out of whatever has been holding him back the last two weeks, has another record setting year, and the front office pays him.

[JSSkinz]

The Rams game reminded me of early 2015 when Gruden and Mcvay had the shackles on Cousins, yesterday it was clear to me there was a lack of confidence in our passing game by the coaches as there were opportunities to take advantage of the play action game more than we did.

 

Is it the O line, the QB, the WR's, or a combination?  I don't know but if you're watching these last 2 games your not seeing the prolific passing attack we have had the last 2 years, hope they figure it out soon.